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On May 27 2013 18:08 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 15:45 Itsmedudeman wrote:Bad reffing and flopping is circular. Players flop because they think the refs make bad calls, the refs make bad calls because players flop  this flopping wont stop until players are actually threatened with some ingame ejection system or even faster suspension
This.
If you win a game because of a flop, no amount of fine can rectify the situation.
I feel similarly about PEDs in a lot of ways: If you get caught, a fine/suspension is obviously insufficient because your team won games (maybe) that they wouldn't have without them.
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^suspension means you might not win the next game though
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On May 28 2013 06:57 BlackJack wrote:
^suspension means you might not win the next game though
well right now its rather hard to get to that suspension point, nba still seems reluctant to penalize players for flopping, and even then, sometimes there isnt even a next game!
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I'm sure a 2 million dollar fine would stop things
and if it doesn't then good on them for caring about winning more than money
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On May 28 2013 07:35 Itsmedudeman wrote:I'm sure a 2 million dollar fine would stop things and if it doesn't then good on them for caring about winning more than money
Yeah because the Player's Association would totally allow for that to happen. They just need to have a ref watching replays and assessing flop penalties at the beginning of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters. Flops during the 4th would have the game immediately paused and punishments dished out. If there is no immediate punishment for flops players will always take advantage, and I don't blame them.
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On May 28 2013 07:54 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 07:35 Itsmedudeman wrote:I'm sure a 2 million dollar fine would stop things and if it doesn't then good on them for caring about winning more than money Yeah because the Player's Association would totally allow for that to happen. They just need to have a ref watching replays and assessing flop penalties at the beginning of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters. Flops during the 4th would have the game immediately paused and punishments dished out. If there is no immediate punishment for flops players will always take advantage, and I don't blame them.
Decent Idea.
And TLDR on that Sportscience thing: Lebron is super talented.
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I'm against any sort of reviewing in game. The replays slow the game down enough. I'd rather have it go fine > suspension + fine.
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On May 28 2013 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'm against any sort of reviewing in game. The replays slow the game down enough. I'd rather have it go fine > suspension + fine.
That is incredibly insufficient though. Just imagine an extreme case:
Team 1 has players A, B successfully flop. This negates 2 layups for Team 2, and awards 4 free throws to Team 1. Assuming standard FT % and points per possession this is a 5-6 point swing. If team 1 wins by 4, no amount of fine can suffice in making the other team whole. If players A, B are only roleplayers, even a suspension may not suffice.
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I think any reviewing in game would have to give a HUGE benefit of the doubt to whoever is accused of flopping. It'd suck for a fall to be legit but receive a tech or whatever because the crowd/official thought it was a flop. Like I'd probably excuse the Lebron gif from last page but not the Wade one.
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On May 28 2013 01:06 slyboogie wrote:
This thread improves every year. The flop-bitching started in the first round last season. Brava, brava!
This statement blows my mind. God forbid people point out a major problem with the league which is seemingly getting worse and more blatant each and every year.
Everybody complains about something. At least this issue has merit.
On May 27 2013 15:47 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 15:29 On_Slaught wrote:
Looks like I missed quite the spectacular beat down. 70 pts in the first half? Holy hell.
Pacers missing 14 FTs, shooting sub 40% and giving up almost 55% shooting = blow out.
Edit: Wow at those flops. Heat getting more and more bold with their flopping. The Wade thing is embarrassing. I'm surprised old players, like the old Piston boys, don't call out modern players for shit like that. I'd rather some harmless flopping than the shit Laimbeer used to pull on the court.
I couldn't disagree more. At least then the refs would have a legitimate and simple purpose to limit how physical things got. However in the status quo it is coming from both sides: they have to limit the physicalness as well as try and determine if something is actually just a flop and wasn't physical at all.
I'd rather reward players for being able to dish out some physicality in a game which is supposed to be competitive and physical to some extent than rewarding players for pretending they got hit hard when they clearly didn't. I can't fathom how it is good for the game with the direction we are going of everybody flying to the ground or flailing their arms every time they are breathed on.
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On May 28 2013 08:31 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'm against any sort of reviewing in game. The replays slow the game down enough. I'd rather have it go fine > suspension + fine. That is incredibly insufficient though. Just imagine an extreme case: Team 1 has players A, B successfully flop. This negates 2 layups for Team 2, and awards 4 free throws to Team 1. Assuming standard FT % and points per possession this is a 5-6 point swing. If team 1 wins by 4, no amount of fine can suffice in making the other team whole. If players A, B are only roleplayers, even a suspension may not suffice.
My solution is for the long run though to deter people from doing it at all in the first place. I just think it ruins the viewing experience and enjoyability of the game if we have to wait 2 minutes watching every questionable play and waiting for a decision to come out.
Even if reviewing plays did solve it in the long run you'd still have to check the plays during each and every game. I like basketball partly for its pace. It's back and forth and there's not too much downtime except during fouls. Add a 2 minute review to these fouls and it's just super annoying.
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On May 28 2013 08:35 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 01:06 slyboogie wrote:
This thread improves every year. The flop-bitching started in the first round last season. Brava, brava! This statement blows my mind. God forbid people point out a major problem with the league which is seemingly getting worse and more blatant each and every year. Everybody complains about something. At least this issue has merit. Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 15:47 RowdierBob wrote:On May 27 2013 15:29 On_Slaught wrote:
Looks like I missed quite the spectacular beat down. 70 pts in the first half? Holy hell.
Pacers missing 14 FTs, shooting sub 40% and giving up almost 55% shooting = blow out.
Edit: Wow at those flops. Heat getting more and more bold with their flopping. The Wade thing is embarrassing. I'm surprised old players, like the old Piston boys, don't call out modern players for shit like that. I'd rather some harmless flopping than the shit Laimbeer used to pull on the court. I couldn't disagree more. At least then the refs would have a legitimate and simple purpose to limit how physical things got. However in the status quo it is coming from both sides: they have to limit the physicalness as well as try and determine if something is actually just a flop and wasn't physical at all. I'd rather reward players for being able to dish out some physicality in a game which is supposed to be competitive and physical to some extent than rewarding players for pretending they got hit hard when they clearly didn't. I can't fathom how it is good for the game with the direction we are going of everybody flying to the ground or flailing their arms every time they are breathed on.
I agree with this, I'd rather side with overly physical play than overly cautious play (flopping). Soccer/football has the same exact issue, and when the ref just lets the players play physically and only calls blatant physical fouls the players begin to realize they are putting themselves out of position.
The issue with taking this side of the argument however, is when there are more "minor" shoves that are legitimate fouls you end up getting a lot more no calls on things that SHOULD be called...but what's worse, having a game where the refs miss a few calls and minimize flopping OR having a game where the refs miss a few calls and have flops everywhere?
The old days had it right in basketball, shit was so physical that if people were flopping like today there would straight up be FIGHTS over it or your "enforcer" would come and send a message.
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At grizzlies spurs game tonight. Lets go grizzlies. And in other news had magic johnson walk right next to me was so cool.
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On May 28 2013 08:45 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 08:31 cLutZ wrote:On May 28 2013 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'm against any sort of reviewing in game. The replays slow the game down enough. I'd rather have it go fine > suspension + fine. That is incredibly insufficient though. Just imagine an extreme case: Team 1 has players A, B successfully flop. This negates 2 layups for Team 2, and awards 4 free throws to Team 1. Assuming standard FT % and points per possession this is a 5-6 point swing. If team 1 wins by 4, no amount of fine can suffice in making the other team whole. If players A, B are only roleplayers, even a suspension may not suffice. My solution is for the long run though to deter people from doing it at all in the first place. I just think it ruins the viewing experience and enjoyability of the game if we have to wait 2 minutes watching every questionable play and waiting for a decision to come out. Even if reviewing plays did solve it in the long run you'd still have to check the plays during each and every game. I like basketball partly for its pace. It's back and forth and there's not too much downtime except during fouls. Add a 2 minute review to these fouls and it's just super annoying.
But you don't have to do that. You just have a dude in a booth. He has 100% discretion. Signals the refs at the next stoppage in play that:
1. A tech is given to the flopper.
2. The foul is removed from the flopee and one is subtracted from the team's score.
3. Any points gotten on FT's removed.
4. Flopee's team gets the tech FT.
5. A replay is put on the big screen to embarrass the flopper.
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On May 28 2013 09:00 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 08:45 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 28 2013 08:31 cLutZ wrote:On May 28 2013 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'm against any sort of reviewing in game. The replays slow the game down enough. I'd rather have it go fine > suspension + fine. That is incredibly insufficient though. Just imagine an extreme case: Team 1 has players A, B successfully flop. This negates 2 layups for Team 2, and awards 4 free throws to Team 1. Assuming standard FT % and points per possession this is a 5-6 point swing. If team 1 wins by 4, no amount of fine can suffice in making the other team whole. If players A, B are only roleplayers, even a suspension may not suffice. My solution is for the long run though to deter people from doing it at all in the first place. I just think it ruins the viewing experience and enjoyability of the game if we have to wait 2 minutes watching every questionable play and waiting for a decision to come out. Even if reviewing plays did solve it in the long run you'd still have to check the plays during each and every game. I like basketball partly for its pace. It's back and forth and there's not too much downtime except during fouls. Add a 2 minute review to these fouls and it's just super annoying. But you don't have to do that. You just have a dude in a booth. He has 100% discretion. Signals the refs at the next stoppage in play that: 1. A tech is given to the flopper. 2. The foul is removed from the flopee and one is subtracted from the team's score. 3. Any points gotten on FT's removed. 4. Flopee's team gets the tech FT. 5. A replay is put on the big screen to embarrass the flopper.
Uh this creates a shit ton of problems. What if someone gets a 6th foul and they're ejected because of a flop? How do you overturn such a thing? What if they don't shoot free throws but the possession is given to the other team instead? Can you give them that possession back? What if that was the 2nd technical of the flopper but he got to play some extra minutes still? Having a call and then essentially MAKING UP for the call on a delay is not a good idea and is the same idea as a "make up" call. Do you ever wonder why we don't review "bad calls" or "bad fouls" in general? It's because of what it does to the viewing experience and the game itself.
It'd be done in such a way that seems really impractical. It's like we're adding a new dimension/rule to the game which garners a shit ton of attention and detracts from the game. Imagine not having a flagrant foul and then adding a flagrant foul to the game. It'd be that big of a change. A change I think that wouldn't be the best solution to this.
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On May 28 2013 09:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 09:00 cLutZ wrote:On May 28 2013 08:45 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 28 2013 08:31 cLutZ wrote:On May 28 2013 08:06 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'm against any sort of reviewing in game. The replays slow the game down enough. I'd rather have it go fine > suspension + fine. That is incredibly insufficient though. Just imagine an extreme case: Team 1 has players A, B successfully flop. This negates 2 layups for Team 2, and awards 4 free throws to Team 1. Assuming standard FT % and points per possession this is a 5-6 point swing. If team 1 wins by 4, no amount of fine can suffice in making the other team whole. If players A, B are only roleplayers, even a suspension may not suffice. My solution is for the long run though to deter people from doing it at all in the first place. I just think it ruins the viewing experience and enjoyability of the game if we have to wait 2 minutes watching every questionable play and waiting for a decision to come out. Even if reviewing plays did solve it in the long run you'd still have to check the plays during each and every game. I like basketball partly for its pace. It's back and forth and there's not too much downtime except during fouls. Add a 2 minute review to these fouls and it's just super annoying. But you don't have to do that. You just have a dude in a booth. He has 100% discretion. Signals the refs at the next stoppage in play that: 1. A tech is given to the flopper. 2. The foul is removed from the flopee and one is subtracted from the team's score. 3. Any points gotten on FT's removed. 4. Flopee's team gets the tech FT. 5. A replay is put on the big screen to embarrass the flopper. Uh this creates a shit ton of problems. What if someone gets a 6th foul and they're ejected because of a flop? How do you overturn such a thing? What if they don't shoot free throws but the possession is given to the other team instead? Can you give them that possession back? What if that was the 2nd technical of the flopper but he got to play some extra minutes still? It'd be done in such a way that seems really impractical. It's like we're adding a new dimension/rule to the game which garners a shit ton of attention and detracts from the game. Imagine not having a flagrant foul and then adding a flagrant foul to the game. It'd be that big of a change. A change I think that wouldn't be the best solution to this.
I admit my solution has problems. But the fact is that it is several times better than the status quo.
Dealing with your cases:
1. 6th Foul> He can come back, better than the other solution of him being out the rest of the game and needing to wait till the next game.
2. 2nd Tech > Ejected. Once again better than waiting for the end of the game. You can suspend him the next game still.
3. Possession is the hardest solution, one that my solution does not fix. Then again, you haven't proposed a solution to this either.
In other words, my solution is admittedly imperfect, but it is much better than current rules, and much better than your proposed rules of doing basically nothing.
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On May 28 2013 08:46 SpiritAshura wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 08:35 On_Slaught wrote:On May 28 2013 01:06 slyboogie wrote:
This thread improves every year. The flop-bitching started in the first round last season. Brava, brava! This statement blows my mind. God forbid people point out a major problem with the league which is seemingly getting worse and more blatant each and every year. Everybody complains about something. At least this issue has merit. On May 27 2013 15:47 RowdierBob wrote:On May 27 2013 15:29 On_Slaught wrote:
Looks like I missed quite the spectacular beat down. 70 pts in the first half? Holy hell.
Pacers missing 14 FTs, shooting sub 40% and giving up almost 55% shooting = blow out.
Edit: Wow at those flops. Heat getting more and more bold with their flopping. The Wade thing is embarrassing. I'm surprised old players, like the old Piston boys, don't call out modern players for shit like that. I'd rather some harmless flopping than the shit Laimbeer used to pull on the court. I couldn't disagree more. At least then the refs would have a legitimate and simple purpose to limit how physical things got. However in the status quo it is coming from both sides: they have to limit the physicalness as well as try and determine if something is actually just a flop and wasn't physical at all. I'd rather reward players for being able to dish out some physicality in a game which is supposed to be competitive and physical to some extent than rewarding players for pretending they got hit hard when they clearly didn't. I can't fathom how it is good for the game with the direction we are going of everybody flying to the ground or flailing their arms every time they are breathed on. I agree with this, I'd rather side with overly physical play than overly cautious play (flopping). Soccer/football has the same exact issue, and when the ref just lets the players play physically and only calls blatant physical fouls the players begin to realize they are putting themselves out of position. The issue with taking this side of the argument however, is when there are more "minor" shoves that are legitimate fouls you end up getting a lot more no calls on things that SHOULD be called...but what's worse, having a game where the refs miss a few calls and minimize flopping OR having a game where the refs miss a few calls and have flops everywhere? The old days had it right in basketball, shit was so physical that if people were flopping like today there would straight up be FIGHTS over it or your "enforcer" would come and send a message. '
I have no problems with legitimate physicality but Laimbeer used to try and deliberately hurt people by undercutting them on jump shots etc. I hate shit like that.
Wade's flopping, while something of an embarrassing blight on the game, really is pretty harmless in the grand scheme of things. The anti-flopping rules the NBA has brought in is a decent start to rectifying it as long as they keep dishing out the fines. The fines don't really matter to guys making that much money but I'd reckon the public shaming aspect to their image will eventually get them thinking twice about doing it (hopefully!).
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Well, see my edit as my reason for not thinking it's better than the status quo.
I think the system in place right now is okay, but the penalty just needs to be severe enough to deter players from committing flops. 5k for a flop in a playoff series isn't that big of a deal, especially with how lax the NBA seems to be on calling something a flop (something I agree with also). Hell, Wade got fined like 200k for some skirmish.
You also have to realize that the NBA doesn't want to make these things obvious. They want lebron to be the superstar with a perfect image in every way imaginable to market their league. Things like suspending him or even calling him on flopping on NATIONAL TV is not something I'd imagine they would ever do. Simply put, the best solution isn't always the best for the organization in control.
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EPT
