EPTNBA Playoffs 2013 - Page 160
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
The reality is he is the 2nd most talented player in the NBA (and pre-back injury he was arguably close to #1). The reality is that he is a top 10 player. The reason people don't like him is because of the sizable gap between what he should be (25+/12+/3, opposing bigs always in foul trouble, opposing backcourts afraid to drive) and what he is. 9/10 basketball fans look at Dwight and say, "give me that body and 10 years of playing basketball, and I would be just as good". The sad part is that they are probably right, but that doesn't mean he is a bad player. There is no player in the NBA that didn't hit the lottery in the athletic department. Whether is is Nate Rob's jumping, Asik's tallness, or Lebron's once-in-a-lifetime combination of everything. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
A couple years ago I would put him at 2 but with Durant improving I'd put Durant at 2 now. Hard to tell if he's still #3 given his injury but I think so. Regarding your 25/12/3 thing I agree with you, except I don't know that that's what he "should" be given the state of today's NBA. The rebounding and blocks might be accurate but scoring has gone down overall with the fall of ISO ball, so I think the fact that he's not at 25 has to do with both his talent not being where it should be at (he needs to learn either some post moves or how to shoot jump shots as well as getting his FT% up to his rookie level or higher) as well as the game not really allowing players to score a lot on their own anymore. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On May 21 2013 13:06 DystopiaX wrote: eh A couple years ago I would put him at 2 but with Durant improving I'd put Durant at 2 now. Hard to tell if he's still #3 given his injury but I think so. Regarding your 25/12/3 thing I agree with you, except I don't know that that's what he "should" be given the state of today's NBA. The rebounding and blocks might be accurate but scoring has gone down overall with the fall of ISO ball, so I think the fact that he's not at 25 has to do with both his talent not being where it should be at (he needs to learn either some post moves or how to shoot jump shots as well as getting his FT% up to his rookie level or higher) as well as the game not really allowing players to score a lot on their own anymore. If you prorate Tim Duncan's stats to 40 MPG (he plays 30.1), you get 23.7 PPG. Tim Duncan, while a beast, has never had the athletic ability of Howard. I don't blame Howard for his play while injured (significantly) during much of this season. But his subpar free throw shooting is inexcusable (and dampens the effectiveness of his PnR and post games), and his lack of the classic bank shot is also super weak. There are at least 15 centers/PFs in the NBA (and plenty more in college) that I think, if you somehow could do a brain transplant with them into Howard's body he would be a nearly unstoppable force. In many ways, this was the old criticism of Lebron, he has always had 10/10 talent, its just that he needed to get into 10/10 mind mode. It is, in fact, the opposite problem that a player like CP3 has. If CP3 could be put into the body of a Carmelo he would tear up the league. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
I agree with you about the FT shooting, not because every elite center must be good at it (see Shaq) but because he actually achieved pretty good percentages his rookie year and has declined since then; it's all mental but I don't think it's from lack of trying, what with all the reports about him shooting extra FTs (and shooting at something like higher than 80% in practice) and getting a dedicated FT shooting coach. IMO the next step would be seeing a psychologist if he hasn't already since he clearly has the skills to do it, he just freezes up in games or something. I see your point with CP3 but I think that's a bit unfair as he is a pretty athletic PG. Put him in Melo's body and you get a slightly less bulky, better-shooting Lebron. On May 21 2013 13:48 Ace wrote: I have KG over Duncan, and Duncan is a Center but whatever. Argument for a different day  .Point is, those stats for these criteria are hypocritical if you're gonna call TD a HoF and Dwight not worth a max contract. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13536 Posts
His lack of size, injuries and offence look like the biggest red flags. His measurements and shot blocking look crazy good though. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On May 21 2013 13:34 DystopiaX wrote: Tim Duncan is performing the same or slightly better than he has his whole career, only with less minutes. His per36 is basically the same. If prime Duncan, the player that a lot of people are calling the best PF of all time, can't do it yet be considered a HoF and franchise centerpiece, then I think that saying Dwight isn't unless he does is unfair. I agree with you about the FT shooting, not because every elite center must be good at it (see Shaq) but because he actually achieved pretty good percentages his rookie year and has declined since then; it's all mental but I don't think it's from lack of trying, what with all the reports about him shooting extra FTs (and shooting at something like higher than 80% in practice) and getting a dedicated FT shooting coach. IMO the next step would be seeing a psychologist if he hasn't already since he clearly has the skills to do it, he just freezes up in games or something. I see your point with CP3 but I think that's a bit unfair as he is a pretty athletic PG. Put him in Melo's body and you get a slightly less bulky, better-shooting Lebron. Point is, those stats for these criteria are hypocritical if you're gonna call TD a HoF and Dwight not worth a max contract. Dwight is worth a Max. My point is that Dwight Does not play to the standards that Dwight is, and should be, held to. There are plenty of underperforming NBA (and NFL) players. He is just currently the most egregious, or, perhaps, the most egregious without being so pathetic we cannot even see his potential for greatness. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
I think people are getting way too caught up in what happened this season, and not acknowledging that he had a debilitating back injury that most players wouldn't be able to play through, let alone perform as well as he did. Yes, his FT shooting is still a problem, but every player has strengths and weaknesses (except for maybe Lebron these days). He reached the status as #2 player in the league for a reason, and that's because his strengths far outweighed his weaknesses. With that said, he clearly has notable weaknesses that he needs to work on. FT shooting is the most obvious, but he's also always been turnover-prone and has shown he struggles to handle double teams this season. In ORL, he was surrounded by shooters and it was much simpler for him (i.e. go one-on-one or pass out to perimeter if doubled). He needs to figure out how to be more versatile and be able to handle the attention he's going to get in situations where an entire team isn't designed entirely around him like in ORL. He wants to play on a team with one or two other stars, so he'll have to learn to co-exist with them and on teams where he's not the entire focus of the team. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13536 Posts
Lakers will lock Dwight away and working behind the scenes to bring in a big name in 2014. That FA year will be such a circus. Especially if LBJ doesn't immediately commit to Miami earlier in the year. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13536 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Told you guys they would struggle and that was before the injuries. Those guys just dont naturally mesh well like Lebron/Wade/Bosh. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On May 21 2013 16:12 cLutZ wrote: I would say, also, that during Dwight's brief time as #2 (behind Lebron) there was a thin pool, unless you are a Kobe fan, which I have never been. I feel like those Boston and Lakers teams were historically weak NBA champions, except for the first Celtics team. Do you have support for those opinions? I'm not necessarily disputing your opinion, but I don't remember it that way. Lebron wasn't what he is now, but was still playing like one of the best ever. Durant was still improving, but had already become an elite scorer. Wade, Kobe, Dirk, KG, Duncan and Nash were all younger and closer to their primes. Deron was still still Utah Deron. Amare was still a 20 ppg guy, Roy still had knees, and Melo was impressive in Denver. Those BOS teams were some of the best defensive teams in the history of the NBA and were dominating , and the Lakers were able to match up with them over that span. The West was still competitive, and the East wasn't a one-team race like it was this year with BOS, CLE (Lebron), and ORL (Dwight) all seen as legitimate threats. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On May 21 2013 16:32 Ace wrote: I didn't Told you guys they would struggle and that was before the injuries. Those guys just dont naturally mesh well like Lebron/Wade/Bosh. I know it worked out in the end, but I still don't see how Lebron, Wade and Bosh were intuitive matches. Bosh was a great match for the other two because he's a stretch PF/C who can open up the middle for Wade and Lebron, but Wade and Lebron played virtually identical roles as ball-dominating perimeter players with unreliable range. I think the BOS big 3 of KG, Ray and Pierce was much more intuitive and fit each other better. As for the Lakers big 3, I honestly never saw the Nash acquisition as the huge deal that others made it out to be when it was announced. My first thoughts were that Nash was old and had been steadily declining for the past few years in both production and ability to stay on the floor, and that the Lakers didn't really need a PG like Nash as much as they needed some youth, athleticism, and defense at the position. I did think that they could make Kobe, Pau and D12 work though as long as all three bought in, but didn't anticipate all of the injuries, Pau forgetting how to shoot, or D'Antoni taking over as coach (poor fit then and now). | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Maybe its just me starting to actually pick up on the intricacies of the NBA, but it feels like I've gotten this recently: 2000-02: Shaq (should have been the greatest player of all time if he actually cared) + Lakers dominate world. 2003: Weak year, Duncan's individual brilliance exploits Shaq's laziness 2004: Piston's Exploit Shaq's Laziness 2005: Duncan, Park, Ginobili, all hit stride together, beat Pistons (who were actually better this year) 2006: Shaq tries again one more time until he gets fat, Dwayne wad exploits bad refs. 2007: Very good Spurs Crush Rubbish Cleveland team with 1 player 2008: Elite Boston team runs shit 2009: Decent Lakers beat Magic with 1 player (that got through injury riddled East (in what was actually Lebron's biggest embarrassment 2010: Same Lakers beat aged and still hampered Celtics 2011: Mavs Exploit Old Lakers to reach finals against Bizzaro Heat (I mean really, I do NOT think this Mavs team was good) 2012: Lockout, Heat never play Eastern Conference rival Bulls due to injuries to 2 best players, face teenagers in finals 2013: Bulls (only hypotheitcally good Eastern conference Rival) still crippled by injuries, Thunder injured. Heat historically good outside of playoffs. | ||
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