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On March 09 2012 18:17 True_Spike wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 18:12 -Archangel- wrote:
Even being able to compare such an old game to new games in same gendre says volumes to its quality.
I don't see anyone screeming SC2 sucks, I am going back to play C&C or Dune2.
I don't see anyone screeming Battlefield 3 sucks, I am going to play Doom or Dune Nukem 3d.
I agree. However, it's quite common to hear SC2 sucks, I'm going back to BW  Pretty cool to think that baldurs gate and starcraft 1 came out the same year. Starcraft is regarded as the best RTS in the history of gaming, akin to Baldur's Gate and the western cRPG. I do agree that these statements are a testament to how godlike these games are. I cannot comprehend how today's developers fail again and again to make as successful of a game with so many more resources at their disposal than back in the late 90's.
Having more at your disposal doesn't necessarily make a good product. Take the Star Wars movies. The Original Trilogy was great because George Lucas didn't have unlimited funds and he and his staff had to find cheap creative ways to tell the story. When he had the backing of millions of dollars he churned out crap because he could always take the easy way out.
Same thing with older games where rather than being able to mask some of the problems with good graphics and other gimmicky type things, actual good mechanics and ideas were used as the foundation for the game. Also with more money there is more reason to appease the lowest common denominator to recoup the investment quickly. BG was more about fitting the system of AD&D with a good story.
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The only thing in your list I define as a real flaw, is the AI, and then only really I'm travelling in an already explored map that I just want to go through without looking.
I like that you can go in the inventory without pausing. Sure I died because of it once or twice, but it also has its advantage.
That being said, there are a few things I think could make the game better.
Just like I love bw and its ui, and I also think it is possible to make a better rts.
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On March 10 2012 01:36 ReDShiFT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 18:17 True_Spike wrote:On March 09 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 18:12 -Archangel- wrote:
Even being able to compare such an old game to new games in same gendre says volumes to its quality.
I don't see anyone screeming SC2 sucks, I am going back to play C&C or Dune2.
I don't see anyone screeming Battlefield 3 sucks, I am going to play Doom or Dune Nukem 3d.
I agree. However, it's quite common to hear SC2 sucks, I'm going back to BW Pretty cool to think that baldurs gate and starcraft 1 came out the same year. Starcraft is regarded as the best RTS in the history of gaming, akin to Baldur's Gate and the western cRPG. I do agree that these statements are a testament to how godlike these games are. I cannot comprehend how today's developers fail again and again to make as successful of a game with so many more resources at their disposal than back in the late 90's. Having more at your disposal doesn't necessarily make a good product. Take the Star Wars movies. The Original Trilogy was great because George Lucas didn't have unlimited funds and he and his staff had to find cheap creative ways to tell the story. When he had the backing of millions of dollars he churned out crap because he could always take the easy way out. Same thing with older games where rather than being able to mask some of the problems with good graphics and other gimmicky type things, actual good mechanics and ideas were used as the foundation for the game. Also with more money there is more reason to appease the lowest common denominator to recoup the investment quickly. BG was more about fitting the system of AD&D with a good story.
Another reason is that games today that try to have depth are overengineered. Take BW for example. There's 3 different damage types and 3 sizes of units. In Warcraft 3, that expanded to around 5-7 types of damage and unit types. SC2 removed the different damage types. However, there are all sorts of units, abilities and spells that have an arbitrary damage bonus against one of 4 or 5 different unit types. Some units can be two types like mechanical and massive, for example.
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On March 10 2012 02:02 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:36 ReDShiFT wrote:On March 09 2012 18:17 True_Spike wrote:On March 09 2012 18:15 Tobberoth wrote:On March 09 2012 18:12 -Archangel- wrote:
Even being able to compare such an old game to new games in same gendre says volumes to its quality.
I don't see anyone screeming SC2 sucks, I am going back to play C&C or Dune2.
I don't see anyone screeming Battlefield 3 sucks, I am going to play Doom or Dune Nukem 3d.
I agree. However, it's quite common to hear SC2 sucks, I'm going back to BW Pretty cool to think that baldurs gate and starcraft 1 came out the same year. Starcraft is regarded as the best RTS in the history of gaming, akin to Baldur's Gate and the western cRPG. I do agree that these statements are a testament to how godlike these games are. I cannot comprehend how today's developers fail again and again to make as successful of a game with so many more resources at their disposal than back in the late 90's. Having more at your disposal doesn't necessarily make a good product. Take the Star Wars movies. The Original Trilogy was great because George Lucas didn't have unlimited funds and he and his staff had to find cheap creative ways to tell the story. When he had the backing of millions of dollars he churned out crap because he could always take the easy way out. Same thing with older games where rather than being able to mask some of the problems with good graphics and other gimmicky type things, actual good mechanics and ideas were used as the foundation for the game. Also with more money there is more reason to appease the lowest common denominator to recoup the investment quickly. BG was more about fitting the system of AD&D with a good story. Another reason is that games today that try to have depth are overengineered. Take BW for example. There's 3 different damage types and 3 sizes of units. In Warcraft 3, that expanded to around 5-7 types of damage and unit types. SC2 removed the different damage types. However, there are all sorts of units, abilities and spells that have an arbitrary damage bonus against one of 4 or 5 different unit types. Some units can be two types like mechanical and massive, for example.
No, having many armor and weapon types could easily be achieved on really old systems and were very common. Take red alert which had ~7 armor types and each weapon were having individual damages against each type, in general the player had no clue at all on the numbers. Starcraft 2 is really conservative with the damage bonuses compared to almost any other RTS out there, even those from the starcraft era.
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OK so a few days ago started bg2 again with all the mods out there installed.At the end of chapter 2 i had timestop on my kensai/mage. (dueled at 13).
In Suldanesselar I had 6 million xp LOL.THis was the greatest power lvl experience in my bg2 career so far ! :D
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On March 10 2012 11:48 pokerface wrote:
OK so a few days ago started bg2 again with all the mods out there installed.At the end of chapter 2 i had timestop on my kensai/mage. (dueled at 13).
In Suldanesselar I had 6 million xp LOL.THis was the greatest power lvl experience in my bg2 career so far ! :D
What mods did you use? And was it worth it (i.e. it actually took a lot of skill, it still felt like BG)?
In my experience, the only good mods out there are some of the NPC ones and those with an additional storyline or quests, only slightly tweaking the gameplay, if at all... just curious.
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On March 10 2012 16:02 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 11:48 pokerface wrote:
OK so a few days ago started bg2 again with all the mods out there installed.At the end of chapter 2 i had timestop on my kensai/mage. (dueled at 13).
In Suldanesselar I had 6 million xp LOL.THis was the greatest power lvl experience in my bg2 career so far ! :D What mods did you use? And was it worth it (i.e. it actually took a lot of skill, it still felt like BG)? In my experience, the only good mods out there are some of the NPC ones and those with an additional storyline or quests, only slightly tweaking the gameplay, if at all... just curious.
I have installed so much that i couldnt name them.My bg folder became 10gig.
Skillwise I must say it was hard definetly,just until my kensai skills reactivated after that it was meh...
I have encountered countless new npcs,new areas new items so it was sooo fun and bglike,the only problem was me being godlike already when i steppd on saemon's ship the first time.. :D I think ill do a rerun with somethin less op.
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My only problem with these games is that you have to be familiar with D and D rules to really know what you're doing. There's alot of tooltips that explain barely anything because they expect you to know what it is already. 
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Jon Irenicus, ultimate badass. Loved these games, gonna have to dig them out again here soon.
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On March 10 2012 20:01 solidbebe wrote:My only problem with these games is that you have to be familiar with D and D rules to really know what you're doing. There's alot of tooltips that explain barely anything because they expect you to know what it is already.
Just found this: http://faqs.ign.com/articles/372/372456p1.html
Seems like a well written and explained introduction to the dnd ruleset. 
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On March 10 2012 20:01 solidbebe wrote:My only problem with these games is that you have to be familiar with D and D rules to really know what you're doing. There's alot of tooltips that explain barely anything because they expect you to know what it is already.
That's not correct.
I played cRPG games before I started D&D tabletop games. I got along perfectly fine in BG, Planescape and Icewind Dale. It's helpful to understand what's happening, sure, but you don't have to know how the dice work or how all the mechanics function in order to get along in the game.
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The game came with a manual that explained all the important concepts.
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On March 10 2012 20:36 Shockk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 20:01 solidbebe wrote:My only problem with these games is that you have to be familiar with D and D rules to really know what you're doing. There's alot of tooltips that explain barely anything because they expect you to know what it is already. That's not correct. I played cRPG games before I started D&D tabletop games. I got along perfectly fine in BG, Planescape and Icewind Dale. It's helpful to understand what's happening, sure, but you don't have to know how the dice work or how all the mechanics function in order to get along in the game.
I don't say you can't play these games, just that there's alot of stuff that's never explained.
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On March 10 2012 22:14 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 20:36 Shockk wrote:On March 10 2012 20:01 solidbebe wrote:My only problem with these games is that you have to be familiar with D and D rules to really know what you're doing. There's alot of tooltips that explain barely anything because they expect you to know what it is already. That's not correct. I played cRPG games before I started D&D tabletop games. I got along perfectly fine in BG, Planescape and Icewind Dale. It's helpful to understand what's happening, sure, but you don't have to know how the dice work or how all the mechanics function in order to get along in the game. I don't say you can't play these games, just that there's alot of stuff that's never explained.
Well, your initial post said that you have to understand D&D in order to understand what you're doing. That's wrong. As for the stuff that's never explained - all of that's just the game mechanics. They're not essential to play the game, you'll master every level-up and fight without them, and even hardcore (A)D&D fanatics won't have some sort of magical advantage because they comprehend the ruleset.
Everything you need to know is explained in the handbook. And of those, I'd say the only thing of practical value is the armor values, though common sense would dictate that if your armor value goes down when equipping heavy plate mail, then a low (or negative) armor value is obviously preferable. All of the rest - saving throws, THACO, dice roll results - is stuff you don't need to understand. It's not even shown in the interface without explicitely enabling it in the options.
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On March 10 2012 22:36 Shockk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 22:14 solidbebe wrote:On March 10 2012 20:36 Shockk wrote:On March 10 2012 20:01 solidbebe wrote:My only problem with these games is that you have to be familiar with D and D rules to really know what you're doing. There's alot of tooltips that explain barely anything because they expect you to know what it is already. That's not correct. I played cRPG games before I started D&D tabletop games. I got along perfectly fine in BG, Planescape and Icewind Dale. It's helpful to understand what's happening, sure, but you don't have to know how the dice work or how all the mechanics function in order to get along in the game. I don't say you can't play these games, just that there's alot of stuff that's never explained. Well, your initial post said that you have to understand D&D in order to understand what you're doing. That's wrong. As for the stuff that's never explained - all of that's just the game mechanics. They're not essential to play the game, you'll master every level-up and fight without them, and even hardcore (A)D&D fanatics won't have some sort of magical advantage because they comprehend the ruleset.
You absolutely do need to understand AD&D to know what you're doing. Whether you acquire that knowledge from actually having played AD&D, or you learn it the hard way from experience within BG itself, or you learn it by reading guides on the internet is irrelevant. If you understand how to play the game, you understand AD&D to some extent by definition.
How would you know what a Level Drain is without knowing AD&D? How do you figure out why a weapon is inefficient, or why your character seems to be missing his target all the time, or why does a Fighter that's supposed to be tanky and has the most HP also get hit the most and dies incredibly fast when developed wrong. What does "damage 2d4" mean? What about "physical resistance 2/piercing"? What are Saving Throws? Why does my Armor Class go down when I equip better armor, and what does that number even mean?
You can learn all these things intuitively by playing the PC game, but it's an arduous experience and people who know these things ahead of time are always going to have an advantage and a smoother (I would even argue an overall more enjoyable) experience.
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On March 10 2012 22:56 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 22:36 Shockk wrote:On March 10 2012 22:14 solidbebe wrote:On March 10 2012 20:36 Shockk wrote:On March 10 2012 20:01 solidbebe wrote:My only problem with these games is that you have to be familiar with D and D rules to really know what you're doing. There's alot of tooltips that explain barely anything because they expect you to know what it is already. That's not correct. I played cRPG games before I started D&D tabletop games. I got along perfectly fine in BG, Planescape and Icewind Dale. It's helpful to understand what's happening, sure, but you don't have to know how the dice work or how all the mechanics function in order to get along in the game. I don't say you can't play these games, just that there's alot of stuff that's never explained. Well, your initial post said that you have to understand D&D in order to understand what you're doing. That's wrong. As for the stuff that's never explained - all of that's just the game mechanics. They're not essential to play the game, you'll master every level-up and fight without them, and even hardcore (A)D&D fanatics won't have some sort of magical advantage because they comprehend the ruleset. You absolutely do need to understand AD&D to know what you're doing. Whether you acquire that knowledge from actually having played AD&D, or you learn it the hard way from experience within BG itself, or you learn it by reading guides on the internet is irrelevant. If you understand how to play the game, you understand AD&D to some extent by definition. How would you know what a Level Drain is without knowing AD&D? How do you figure out why a weapon is inefficient, or why your character seems to be missing his target all the time, or why does a Fighter that's supposed to be tanky and has the most HP also get hit the most and dies incredibly fast when developed wrong. What does "damage 2d4" mean? What about "physical resistance 2/piercing"? What are Saving Throws? Why does my Armor Class go down when I equip better armor, and what does that number even mean? You can learn all these things intuitively by playing the PC game, but it's an arduous experience and people who know these things ahead of time are always going to have an advantage and a smoother (I would even argue an overall more enjoyable) experience.
Not really, because most of the dice rolls and stats happen behind the curtain. This means that the only things about AD&D you need to learn is THAC0 system (which is extremely counter-intuitive, granted), and the saving throw system.
The moment in which you will have troubles though is character creation. And if you want to play a mage character right off the bat you might have some trouble learning the basics, but that's about it.
This is also like this because if you play all the way from BG1, the game's enemies are pretty simple actually, enemies are low level, they don't have complex resistances or abilities, so they're easy to understand (not easy to fight though, low level characters are fragile, and as weak as the enemies lol). The game has a rather smooth learning curve, which is long as hell, but easy to get along with.
The game's content is so huge you can slowly understand the game and enjoy it as the complexity of encounters rises.
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On March 10 2012 22:56 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 22:36 Shockk wrote:On March 10 2012 22:14 solidbebe wrote:On March 10 2012 20:36 Shockk wrote:On March 10 2012 20:01 solidbebe wrote:My only problem with these games is that you have to be familiar with D and D rules to really know what you're doing. There's alot of tooltips that explain barely anything because they expect you to know what it is already. That's not correct. I played cRPG games before I started D&D tabletop games. I got along perfectly fine in BG, Planescape and Icewind Dale. It's helpful to understand what's happening, sure, but you don't have to know how the dice work or how all the mechanics function in order to get along in the game. I don't say you can't play these games, just that there's alot of stuff that's never explained. Well, your initial post said that you have to understand D&D in order to understand what you're doing. That's wrong. As for the stuff that's never explained - all of that's just the game mechanics. They're not essential to play the game, you'll master every level-up and fight without them, and even hardcore (A)D&D fanatics won't have some sort of magical advantage because they comprehend the ruleset. You absolutely do need to understand AD&D to know what you're doing. Whether you acquire that knowledge from actually having played AD&D, or you learn it the hard way from experience within BG itself, or you learn it by reading guides on the internet is irrelevant. If you understand how to play the game, you understand AD&D to some extent by definition. How would you know what a Level Drain is without knowing AD&D? How do you figure out why a weapon is inefficient, or why your character seems to be missing his target all the time, or why does a Fighter that's supposed to be tanky and has the most HP also get hit the most and dies incredibly fast when developed wrong. What does "damage 2d4" mean? What about "physical resistance 2/piercing"? What are Saving Throws? Why does my Armor Class go down when I equip better armor, and what does that number even mean? You can learn all these things intuitively by playing the PC game, but it's an arduous experience and people who know these things ahead of time are always going to have an advantage and a smoother (I would even argue an overall more enjoyable) experience.
Let's not start another spinoff discussion. solidbebe argued that you need to understand D&D in order to have a chance at playing Baldur's Gate. That's wrong, and millions of people with zero prior D&D experience (including myself at the point of BG1's release) are proof for that.
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On March 10 2012 23:01 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 22:56 Talin wrote:On March 10 2012 22:36 Shockk wrote:On March 10 2012 22:14 solidbebe wrote:On March 10 2012 20:36 Shockk wrote:On March 10 2012 20:01 solidbebe wrote:My only problem with these games is that you have to be familiar with D and D rules to really know what you're doing. There's alot of tooltips that explain barely anything because they expect you to know what it is already. That's not correct. I played cRPG games before I started D&D tabletop games. I got along perfectly fine in BG, Planescape and Icewind Dale. It's helpful to understand what's happening, sure, but you don't have to know how the dice work or how all the mechanics function in order to get along in the game. I don't say you can't play these games, just that there's alot of stuff that's never explained. Well, your initial post said that you have to understand D&D in order to understand what you're doing. That's wrong. As for the stuff that's never explained - all of that's just the game mechanics. They're not essential to play the game, you'll master every level-up and fight without them, and even hardcore (A)D&D fanatics won't have some sort of magical advantage because they comprehend the ruleset. You absolutely do need to understand AD&D to know what you're doing. Whether you acquire that knowledge from actually having played AD&D, or you learn it the hard way from experience within BG itself, or you learn it by reading guides on the internet is irrelevant. If you understand how to play the game, you understand AD&D to some extent by definition. How would you know what a Level Drain is without knowing AD&D? How do you figure out why a weapon is inefficient, or why your character seems to be missing his target all the time, or why does a Fighter that's supposed to be tanky and has the most HP also get hit the most and dies incredibly fast when developed wrong. What does "damage 2d4" mean? What about "physical resistance 2/piercing"? What are Saving Throws? Why does my Armor Class go down when I equip better armor, and what does that number even mean? You can learn all these things intuitively by playing the PC game, but it's an arduous experience and people who know these things ahead of time are always going to have an advantage and a smoother (I would even argue an overall more enjoyable) experience. Not really, because most of the dice rolls and stats happen behind the curtain. This means that the only things about AD&D you need to learn is THAC0 system (which is extremely counter-intuitive, granted), and the saving throw system. The moment in which you will have troubles though is character creation. And if you want to play a mage character right off the bat you might have some trouble learning the basics, but that's about it.
Well you basically said the same thing I said, you only quantified the level of difficulty of learning those things differently.
When you add up all those "only things" and "just thats" that you need to know, it still adds up to having to know/learn quite a lot to understand what's going on.
On March 10 2012 23:08 Shockk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 22:56 Talin wrote:On March 10 2012 22:36 Shockk wrote:On March 10 2012 22:14 solidbebe wrote:On March 10 2012 20:36 Shockk wrote:On March 10 2012 20:01 solidbebe wrote:My only problem with these games is that you have to be familiar with D and D rules to really know what you're doing. There's alot of tooltips that explain barely anything because they expect you to know what it is already. That's not correct. I played cRPG games before I started D&D tabletop games. I got along perfectly fine in BG, Planescape and Icewind Dale. It's helpful to understand what's happening, sure, but you don't have to know how the dice work or how all the mechanics function in order to get along in the game. I don't say you can't play these games, just that there's alot of stuff that's never explained. Well, your initial post said that you have to understand D&D in order to understand what you're doing. That's wrong. As for the stuff that's never explained - all of that's just the game mechanics. They're not essential to play the game, you'll master every level-up and fight without them, and even hardcore (A)D&D fanatics won't have some sort of magical advantage because they comprehend the ruleset. You absolutely do need to understand AD&D to know what you're doing. Whether you acquire that knowledge from actually having played AD&D, or you learn it the hard way from experience within BG itself, or you learn it by reading guides on the internet is irrelevant. If you understand how to play the game, you understand AD&D to some extent by definition. How would you know what a Level Drain is without knowing AD&D? How do you figure out why a weapon is inefficient, or why your character seems to be missing his target all the time, or why does a Fighter that's supposed to be tanky and has the most HP also get hit the most and dies incredibly fast when developed wrong. What does "damage 2d4" mean? What about "physical resistance 2/piercing"? What are Saving Throws? Why does my Armor Class go down when I equip better armor, and what does that number even mean? You can learn all these things intuitively by playing the PC game, but it's an arduous experience and people who know these things ahead of time are always going to have an advantage and a smoother (I would even argue an overall more enjoyable) experience. Let's not start another spinoff discussion. solidbebe argued that you need to understand D&D in order to have a chance at playing Baldur's Gate. That's wrong, and millions of people with zero prior D&D experience (including myself at the point of BG1's release) are proof for that.
No he didn't. He said you need to know AD&D rules to understand what you're doing. Which is such a clean, logical statement that I don't even understand the grounds for questioning it. Then he said the game doesn't explain the basic mechanics and functionality, which is also factually true.
If you didn't know any AD&D before you started playing BG, you either learn it through the game itself, or you give up on the game. In any event, you need to learn these mechanics one way or the other if you want to actually play it in a meaningful way and/or finish the game. I assume the point he was trying to make is that learning from the game itself can be a frustrating experience because of how poorly the mechanics are presented (and some crucial ones aren't presented at all).
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On March 10 2012 23:09 Talin wrote:
No he didn't. He said you need to know AD&D rules to understand what you're doing. Which is such a clean, logical statement that I don't even understand the grounds for questioning it. Then he said the game doesn't explain the basic mechanics and functionality, which is also factually true.
If you didn't know any AD&D before you started playing BG, you either learn it through the game itself, or you give up on the game. In any event, you need to learn these mechanics one way or the other if you want to actually play it in a meaningful way and/or finish the game. I assume the point he was trying to make is that learning from the game itself can be a frustrating experience because of how poorly the mechanics are presented (and some crucial ones aren't presented at all).
Look, at this point you're defending his hyperbole with your own (the bolded part). You're not helping. I get what you're trying to say, and I won't argue that you may(!) eventually pick up basic D&D mechanics on the way, but that exaggeration of yours is just as wrong as the initial statement that started our little talk here.
My personal experience with the game, as my last contribution to this little spin-off: As mentioned earlier, I knew nothing about D&D when playing BG1 for the very first time. I did, however, have this handy little tool called common sense. I realized that my paladin would probably need strength, and constitution, and shouldn't wear a robe. And around 100 hours of playing time later - mind you, at this point I still hadn't understood THACO, and I was still wondering what the difference between a 1d8 and 2d4 was - I had slain Sarevok. Basic concepts like "heal when wounded", "+2 sword > +1 sword", "plate mail > leather armor" or "fighter=strength, mage=intelligence" are more than enough to manage the combat part of the game.
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When i played BG for the first time i didn't really care about the rules once i figured that thaco and ac need to be low. You guys are way too much into powergaming / minimaxing and autistic stuff like that lol.
Roleplaying is not just about the ruleset and maths.
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EPT
