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On March 02 2012 14:25 Ducci wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 08:16 JiYan wrote:
can i get some opinion from around the country because its a little biased here in california. any thoughts on whether or not the Warriors will make the playoffs this year? I am a huge warriors fan and watch every game that starts at 7pm pacific time. There is no way they can make the playoffs. They are decent but the second half of their schedule is much tougher than their first half and they still have their back to back to back to be played. Its not a bad thing if the warriors tank either because unless they get a top 7 pick in the draft, their pick will go to utah
wow seriously? How the fuck is Utah ending up with that many assets? That team is going to be fucking LOADED in a few years.
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On March 02 2012 12:27 Jibba wrote:
He is not a top 3 player now. Maybe top 5, likely just outside of 5.
I don't see how an objective person can put him outside the top 3. I would put him at #2.
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I'd say Lebron, Wade, Durant and Chris Paul are all better than him. Kobe, Dwight and Dirk are all in the same area of "right below top tier" to me. Only reason I bumped Dwight down from the others is because his playmaking is still terrible.
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United States22883 Posts
I'd still put Kobe with the first 4. You can argue about Rose too, but I think he's below them, where Dwight is.
He scores decently but he's not a go to scorer and because of that, along with being a poor passer, he doesn't help teammates the way other great big men have. Tonight he was actually using his moves reliably, which is what you need. Otherwise, if he's just scoring 20ppg on lobs, dunks, put backs and only occasionally with finesse, you don't actually need to double team him.
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On March 02 2012 14:40 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 14:25 Ducci wrote:On March 02 2012 08:16 JiYan wrote:
can i get some opinion from around the country because its a little biased here in california. any thoughts on whether or not the Warriors will make the playoffs this year? I am a huge warriors fan and watch every game that starts at 7pm pacific time. There is no way they can make the playoffs. They are decent but the second half of their schedule is much tougher than their first half and they still have their back to back to back to be played. Its not a bad thing if the warriors tank either because unless they get a top 7 pick in the draft, their pick will go to utah wow seriously? How the fuck is Utah ending up with that many assets? That team is going to be fucking LOADED in a few years.
The Dubs aren't going to tank. They are going to suck though. Congrats Utah. Still pissed we wasted the Amnesty on Bell.
(Simple Strategy to how the Dubs can keep their draft pick. I like #2 the most lol)
http://www.csnbayarea.com/blog/warriors-talk/post/Five-On-My-Mind--Keeping-the-key-draft-p?blockID=660110&feedID=5882
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On March 02 2012 14:43 Ace wrote:
I'd say Lebron, Wade, Durant and Chris Paul are all better than him. Kobe, Dwight and Dirk are all in the same area of "right below top tier" to me. Only reason I bumped Dwight down from the others is because his playmaking is still terrible.
Dwight makes his team win a lot more with less than Kobe and Dirk have. His presence (not necessarily his actual play) creates a lot of the Orlando 3 point offense, and he's much more dominant on defense.
I can easily believe that he "stops" more points than Kobe or Dirk create (above some alternative shooter).
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1 lebron
2 howard
3 durant
4 paul
5 wade
6 rose
gets fuzzy after that
howard still the best defensive player itl by far + incredibly elite garbageman, it used to be that there was a big gap between the top 2 and the rest, but howard's ft shooting is dragging down his efficiency so much that it's somewhat close between him and durant, who has made a leap as a player (also a very good defender which gets overlooked, one of the best at sf)
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United States22883 Posts
On March 02 2012 17:03 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 14:43 Ace wrote:
I'd say Lebron, Wade, Durant and Chris Paul are all better than him. Kobe, Dwight and Dirk are all in the same area of "right below top tier" to me. Only reason I bumped Dwight down from the others is because his playmaking is still terrible. His presence (not necessarily his actual play) creates a lot of the Orlando 3 point offense
It only works that way during the regular season and against bad defenses.
He also gives away a lot of points with Linsanely high turnovers. That's usually the reason teams double on him, because they can get fast break points out of it. Not because he actually commands it. His non-blocks, when he alters shots, is actually more valuable than the blocks themselves because of the goaltending rate and because the majority of his blocks give the ball back to the other team. He's the best defender in the league, but all those other players are excellent defenders, and Howard's isn't so good that it makes up for his other deficiencies. In the last 6 minutes, he's basically Ben Wallace.
The number one thing that makes him unique from all other big men is his endurance. Part of it is a slight against the Magic's depth, but it's absolutely incredible that he can play 48 minutes.
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yea howard is ben wallace and can't score in the playoffs, must be why he put up 27/15.5 last year on great efficiency vs the supposed "dwight stopper" and his scrub team mates were still too incompetent to get it done. teams double him cos he destroys everyone single coverage, of course he demands it, you think teams want to leave ryan anderson open?
the hating on his defence is so lol, he's literally one of the best defenders of all time. he has a really bad supporting cast, so much worse than any other playoff team and is unbelievably slept on because he can't hit clutch fadeaways and people don't care that he amazingly carries a bunch of really bad defenders into respectability (hedo/jrich/randerson are "really good defenders"? lol at that
its true that he is a relatively poor option late game compared to the #1 option on most teams, but he's been a very useful scorer for a while now, amazingly pts scored in the 1st count the same as game winners. his offensive skills are underutilised too, he needs to be in more pnrs, he's one of the best roll guys in the league
that said i think he's dogging it a bit this year
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Dwight was a beast in the Playoffs last year. I still can't believe he gets so much crap just because the Magic lost.
Paul got so many plaudits for his efforts vs the Lakers last year yet Dwight was just as good in terms of how he impacted individual games IMO.
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United States22883 Posts
Because it was against the Lakers. Lakers might be terrible at point guard, but for whatever reason people forget that and still pay attention when you do well against them.
No one cares when you do well against the Hawks, and his big numbers don't show anything about his offensive game. Like someone else said, he's mostly an elite garbage man on offense. Part of it is doubling him lead to open threes, but part of it is that it's not usually needed. A mix works best, and he gives up a lot of strips to extra defenders, but it's not like young Shaq where he will score 80% of the time without a double team or foul. When you just look at his post game (not including the open dunks and such), he misses more than he makes. Until those baby hooks are consistent, the great teams can always play him with a single guy. That's what stops him from being with Lebron/Wade/Durant.
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when the facts don't fit your bias they don't count. i see. defence also irrelevant
where can i subscribe to your newsletter
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United States22883 Posts
No, when you watch the game and can clearly see how weak his offensive game is and how guys like Jermaine O'Neal can contain him, you see why pure PPG doesn't count.
You're acting like we said he's a bad player when all we said is he's the 5th/6th best player in the league. The pieces around him aren't that bad, and the first three quarters last night were a perfect example of how games should go. His game was fantastic and he was actually making shots for himself. If the Magic hadn't gone into full retard perimeter mode, they wouldn't have choked that lead. If he plays like that normally and the Magic don't ignore him, then he's clear #2.
They do it because they're afraid of him having to take free throws down the stretch, but that's only an issue if your game is all dunks. When you show more moves, like last night, it's harder for teams because of the risk of and1s. I was absolutely amazed last night that Perkins had his 5th foul early in the 4th quarter and the Magic didn't go after him. They kept giving the ball to Dwight with <5 seconds on the clock when he can't do much.
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Those perimeter players Orlando has are actually better defenders than you may think, especially J.J. Reddick. The major issue with defensive metrics is that they usually reward bigs but have a difficult time counting perimeter defenders who force guys into tough shots, or keep penetrators contained to the baseline and one direction. Howard is great, but to say he's one of the best defenders of all time is a stretch.
The reason he's also bumped out of "best" conversations is simply because when compared to the bigs before him, and especially Shaq who is the last guy who dominated with size - Howard looks like shit offensively. It's not only the lack of polish on his moves, but terrible awareness and the insane amount of turn overs. Now what Jibba said about the playoffs is partially true - he doesn't have many "holy shit" playoff games because he isn't a dominant force offensively. Also when he goes up against guys like Wade or Lebron it is very clear he just isn't in their league because he just can't do enough offensively to carry a team. His defense while great just doesn't seem to matter vs elite perimeter players because they'll get to the rim and convert shots on him all day long.
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i get it, dwight isn't a good go-to guy late in games. my pt is that you're underrating his defence and overrating the importance of clutch scoring. that's one side of the ball in like 5 minutes of some games
the other magic bigs are anderson/davis/clark. those guys suck bigtime defensively, hedo is a sieve. it's ugly, yet the magic still have a 101drtg, because of dwight. the magic consistently allow the lowest attempts at the rim in the league. because of dwight. commit among the fewest fouls in the league. because of dwight. i mean i could go on, the evidence is overwhelming when you actually look at it. and defence is HALF the game, you think 5 minutes of clutch offence matter enough to override his incredible defensive contributions?
that's extremely valuable, even moreso because nobody else in the league can give you anywhere near that level of defensive production for the minutes dwight plays + never getting injured. so his vorp is unreal. 3 consecutive dpoys pretty much confirms his status as an all time great defender. the comment about his d not mattering to vs elite players is probably not even true (evidence?), but even if it were he doesn't have to shut them down personally. his presence makes even teams with elite offensive players play worse and that's a fact, team vs team is what matters
i agree redick isn't bad, but he's a backup sg. impactful defensive players are almost always bigs, redick plays hard but he's not shutting down wade or anything so ultimately his contributions to the bottom line are pretty minor
i think howard was clearly the #2 player last year, and still think he is this year (but like i said i don't think he's putting in max effort)
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well, a 101 drtg is pretty bad 
But I agree about clutch offense: I don't really care that Dwight is terrible at that point in the game from the FT line. The rest of the team is supposed to play well enough that you avoid those situations.
What I said about Dwight not having much of an effect vs elite perimeter players is part of the issue with the league today: drafting bigs for defensive purposes only gets you so far unless you get a really quick player. With so many perimeter superstars with all time high skill levels and great coaching you really need awesome perimeter defenders to have a shot at stopping them. As an aside I did a quick check on BR of Miami games vs Orlando since the 05-06 season. From the very top you'll notice Wade has so many games with ridiculously high FG% which somewhat illustrates what I'm getting at located here.
i agree redick isn't bad, but he's a backup sg. impactful defensive players are almost always bigs, redick plays hard but he's not shutting down wade or anything so ultimately his contributions to the bottom line are pretty minor
Not true. I think it's just much easier to recognize great defense from bigs since they tend to be the ones that have to clean up the mistakes of others. However, if you're going against Kevin Durant or Kobe Bryant why the hell would you care about what Dwight Howard is doing? You'd rather have Andre Iguodala or Luol Deng to stop those guys from going off.
When Michael Jordan was tearing up the league you always heard him talk about guys like Vernon Maxwell, Gary Peyton, John Starks - guys who had to personally defend him and not the bigs like Ewing or Olajuwon. By the time he gets to the rim it's usually already too late for them to do anything about it.
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On the topic of D12, what team do you guys think would benefit the most from getting him in a trade? Obviously take into consideration what pieces the various teams would have to give up in order to acquire him and how their starting lineup would look post-trade.
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On March 03 2012 04:18 VENDIZ wrote:
On the topic of D12, what team do you guys think would benefit the most from getting him in a trade? Obviously take into consideration what pieces the various teams would have to give up in order to acquire him and how their starting lineup would look post-trade.
As far as improvement to just the team, Nets, hands down IMO. However I don't think they'd be instant title contenders.
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On March 03 2012 04:18 VENDIZ wrote:
On the topic of D12, what team do you guys think would benefit the most from getting him in a trade? Obviously take into consideration what pieces the various teams would have to give up in order to acquire him and how their starting lineup would look post-trade.
I think he'd look damned good on the 76ers. He'd be a perfect fit as a stopper who isn't a black hole on the offensive end and can get his without having much run for him.
I don't know that the 76ers would want to fuck up what they've got going right now though by trading some of their guns.
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EPT
