On March 03 2012 00:37 Ace wrote: Those perimeter players Orlando has are actually better defenders than you may think, especially J.J. Reddick. The major issue with defensive metrics is that they usually reward bigs but have a difficult time counting perimeter defenders who force guys into tough shots, or keep penetrators contained to the baseline and one direction. Howard is great, but to say he's one of the best defenders of all time is a stretch.
The reason he's also bumped out of "best" conversations is simply because when compared to the bigs before him, and especially Shaq who is the last guy who dominated with size - Howard looks like shit offensively. It's not only the lack of polish on his moves, but terrible awareness and the insane amount of turn overs. Now what Jibba said about the playoffs is partially true - he doesn't have many "holy shit" playoff games because he isn't a dominant force offensively. Also when he goes up against guys like Wade or Lebron it is very clear he just isn't in their league because he just can't do enough offensively to carry a team. His defense while great just doesn't seem to matter vs elite perimeter players because they'll get to the rim and convert shots on him all day long.
The Magic have terrible defenders. Reddick and Jason Richardson are probably average, though. But I'm not ready to say Jameer Nelson, Larry Hughes, Quentin Richardson, Chris Duhon and Ryan Anderson each getting around 20 minutes a game makes you a competitive defensive team. The fact that they have a 101 Drtg makes them slightly above average. Which is what they are with Dwight Howard.
And Shaq was literally 100 pounds heavier than Dwight. Dwight's biggest failure is the world's perception that he physically matches up with titanic centers. He's 6'10"-11" with shoes and probably 245lbs. He's Amare Stoudemire and Ryan Anderson's size.
EDIT: Ehh, he's probably heavier than 245, maybe 260 or so. So he's Hakeem Olajuwan!
That's even more damning to Howard's skill set if he's 100 lbs lighter than Shaq. Shaq actually had plenty of post-up moves that required finesse on his part. Try doing some of Shaq's moves and see if you don't end up throwing the basketball way too hard against the hoop or the backboard. In fact, I'd say the most impressive thing about Shaq's offense is how soft his touch is for somebody his size.
Howard's size should actually make many of the fakes and spin moves easier to him compared to Shaq.
On March 03 2012 06:29 andrewlt wrote: That's even more damning to Howard's skill set if he's 100 lbs lighter than Shaq. Shaq actually had plenty of post-up moves that required finesse on his part. Try doing some of Shaq's moves and see if you don't end up throwing the basketball way too hard against the hoop or the backboard. In fact, I'd say the most impressive thing about Shaq's offense is how soft his touch is for somebody his size.
Howard's size should actually make many of the fakes and spin moves easier to him compared to Shaq.
Speaking of Shaq's moves ;D (I know it's not in a game, but he's fairly light on his feet for being 300lbs)
On March 03 2012 06:29 andrewlt wrote: That's even more damning to Howard's skill set if he's 100 lbs lighter than Shaq. Shaq actually had plenty of post-up moves that required finesse on his part. Try doing some of Shaq's moves and see if you don't end up throwing the basketball way too hard against the hoop or the backboard. In fact, I'd say the most impressive thing about Shaq's offense is how soft his touch is for somebody his size.
Howard's size should actually make many of the fakes and spin moves easier to him compared to Shaq.
Speaking of Shaq's moves ;D (I know it's not in a game, but he's fairly light on his feet for being 300lbs)
On March 03 2012 06:29 andrewlt wrote: That's even more damning to Howard's skill set if he's 100 lbs lighter than Shaq. Shaq actually had plenty of post-up moves that required finesse on his part. Try doing some of Shaq's moves and see if you don't end up throwing the basketball way too hard against the hoop or the backboard. In fact, I'd say the most impressive thing about Shaq's offense is how soft his touch is for somebody his size.
Howard's size should actually make many of the fakes and spin moves easier to him compared to Shaq.
That's mega revisionist. Shaq didn't need many moves. Why don't you try to Black Tornado someone when you aren't 7'1'' and capable of producing a metric ton of force off your shoulder when you drop step. Shaq might have been refined, but it never really mattered.
Yes, Dwight has basically no moves and he can't shoot. But he isn't even close to Shaq in terms of physique. It's Apples and Watermelons.
On March 03 2012 06:29 andrewlt wrote: That's even more damning to Howard's skill set if he's 100 lbs lighter than Shaq. Shaq actually had plenty of post-up moves that required finesse on his part. Try doing some of Shaq's moves and see if you don't end up throwing the basketball way too hard against the hoop or the backboard. In fact, I'd say the most impressive thing about Shaq's offense is how soft his touch is for somebody his size.
Howard's size should actually make many of the fakes and spin moves easier to him compared to Shaq.
Speaking of Shaq's moves ;D (I know it's not in a game, but he's fairly light on his feet for being 300lbs)
On March 03 2012 06:29 andrewlt wrote: That's even more damning to Howard's skill set if he's 100 lbs lighter than Shaq. Shaq actually had plenty of post-up moves that required finesse on his part. Try doing some of Shaq's moves and see if you don't end up throwing the basketball way too hard against the hoop or the backboard. In fact, I'd say the most impressive thing about Shaq's offense is how soft his touch is for somebody his size.
Howard's size should actually make many of the fakes and spin moves easier to him compared to Shaq.
Speaking of Shaq's moves ;D (I know it's not in a game, but he's fairly light on his feet for being 300lbs)
David Falk interview. I love listening to smart people talk, even if they're biased (or arrogant) as hell.
SI.com: What about Dwight Howard? Considering his interest in New Jersey seems to be tied to his visions for his brand, how do you see a guy like that?
Falk: In 2012, I find that to be incredible that someone would think that. We live in a digital age, and I think people like Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant -- Kevin Durant is incredibly marketable in Oklahoma. He doesn't have to be in New York or L.A. I think he could be the best player in the league in two years, at the most. And if someone said to you, "If you represented him, would you move him to New York?" I'd say, "No, for what? I think he has a certain homespun credibility being in Oklahoma. It's like Brett Favre being in Green Bay." And I think these guys are being told by these agents who aren't very sophisticated in marketing that you have to be in New York or L.A. to be marketable. Maybe they've never heard of the Internet.
On March 02 2012 08:16 JiYan wrote: can i get some opinion from around the country because its a little biased here in california. any thoughts on whether or not the Warriors will make the playoffs this year?
I am a huge warriors fan and watch every game that starts at 7pm pacific time. There is no way they can make the playoffs. They are decent but the second half of their schedule is much tougher than their first half and they still have their back to back to back to be played. Its not a bad thing if the warriors tank either because unless they get a top 7 pick in the draft, their pick will go to utah
wow seriously? How the fuck is Utah ending up with that many assets? That team is going to be fucking LOADED in a few years.
A few years ago the warriors traded a protected number 1 to the nets for marcus williams.............The nets then traded that in the deron williams trade. The pick is protected for the first 7 picks this year (2012) and the first 6 picks next year (2013). If it gets to 2014 and utah still hasn't gotten it, then they get a 2nd round pick I believe
SI.com: What about Dwight Howard? Considering his interest in New Jersey seems to be tied to his visions for his brand, how do you see a guy like that?
Falk: In 2012, I find that to be incredible that someone would think that. We live in a digital age, and I think people like Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant -- Kevin Durant is incredibly marketable in Oklahoma. He doesn't have to be in New York or L.A. I think he could be the best player in the league in two years, at the most. And if someone said to you, "If you represented him, would you move him to New York?" I'd say, "No, for what? I think he has a certain homespun credibility being in Oklahoma. It's like Brett Favre being in Green Bay." And I think these guys are being told by these agents who aren't very sophisticated in marketing that you have to be in New York or L.A. to be marketable. Maybe they've never heard of the Internet.
I actually visited this thread today because I was thinking of linking that. The guy seems pretty knowledgeable even though he's very arrogant. He did make a few points that I agree with, especially concerning the business of the NBA.
David Falk interview. I love listening to smart people talk, even if they're biased (or arrogant) as hell.
SI.com: What about Dwight Howard? Considering his interest in New Jersey seems to be tied to his visions for his brand, how do you see a guy like that?
Falk: In 2012, I find that to be incredible that someone would think that. We live in a digital age, and I think people like Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Kevin Durant -- Kevin Durant is incredibly marketable in Oklahoma. He doesn't have to be in New York or L.A. I think he could be the best player in the league in two years, at the most. And if someone said to you, "If you represented him, would you move him to New York?" I'd say, "No, for what? I think he has a certain homespun credibility being in Oklahoma. It's like Brett Favre being in Green Bay." And I think these guys are being told by these agents who aren't very sophisticated in marketing that you have to be in New York or L.A. to be marketable. Maybe they've never heard of the Internet.
I actually visited this thread today because I was thinking of linking that. The guy seems pretty knowledgeable even though he's very arrogant. He did make a few points that I agree with, especially concerning the business of the NBA.
On March 03 2012 03:06 Ace wrote: well, a 101 drtg is pretty bad
wat? it isn't but lockout is making things weird, magic have consistently been a top 3 defence
What I said about Dwight not having much of an effect vs elite perimeter players is part of the issue with the league today: drafting bigs for defensive purposes only gets you so far unless you get a really quick player. With so many perimeter superstars with all time high skill levels and great coaching you really need awesome perimeter defenders to have a shot at stopping them. As an aside I did a quick check on BR of Miami games vs Orlando since the 05-06 season. From the very top you'll notice Wade has so many games with ridiculously high FG% which somewhat illustrates what I'm getting at located here.
would be great argument if lebron/wade scored 100% of his teams points and nba offense were entirely composed of elite guys driving to the rim. even if howard had no effect on elite players themselves , his impact on the rest of the team is still huge, and thus impactful. the lebron/wade heat are 2-2 vs orlando so far, if they score at will why have they not blown them out every time
i agree redick isn't bad, but he's a backup sg. impactful defensive players are almost always bigs, redick plays hard but he's not shutting down wade or anything so ultimately his contributions to the bottom line are pretty minor
Not true. I think it's just much easier to recognize great defense from bigs since they tend to be the ones that have to clean up the mistakes of others. However, if you're going against Kevin Durant or Kobe Bryant why the hell would you care about what Dwight Howard is doing? You'd rather have Andre Iguodala or Luol Deng to stop those guys from going off.
When Michael Jordan was tearing up the league you always heard him talk about guys like Vernon Maxwell, Gary Peyton, John Starks - guys who had to personally defend him and not the bigs like Ewing or Olajuwon. By the time he gets to the rim it's usually already too late for them to do anything about it.
erm this is true, you only have to look at plus minus data to see that, swapping out a good defensive big is makes a much bigger difference than swapping out a good defensive guard. obviously you want a guy to check elite dudes, but magic don't have that. lebron/wade's averages vs howard are right around their career averages. why are they not killing the magic when it's largely hedo/vince carter or whoever guarding them. dwight howard obviously
this table has attempts when each position as the primary defender
your pt is irrelevant to howard anyway because reddick is no deng/lebron/iguodala. its a FACT that the magic have a very poor defensive roster. too bad howard never gets injured, it'd be clear once they were forced to play some games without him
Jazz are really giving it to Miami right now, will be fun to watch if they can play it out or run out of gas in the 4th.. NBA's Mr. ESPORTS himself (Hayward) having a big 3rd quarter so far
I'm not even sure you read or understood my post. If Lebron and Wade are shooting ridiculously high % from the field when they play Orlando then does Dwight Howard's defensive impact really matter or does the guy on the wing guarding them matter more?
Orlando has poor iso defenders aside from Reddick, but they always rank high in defensive metrics because their help defense goes unnoticed. As good as Dwight Howard is it does not matter more than the guy on the wing: If he forces his man into an extra pass by keeping him on the wing then how do you account for it? Where is it measured?
you only have to look at plus minus data to see that, swapping out a good defensive big is makes a much bigger difference than swapping out a good defensive guard.
Can you show me this? From what I've seen the line-up combinations are much, much better indicators of effectiveness in terms of plus-minus rather than what positions are being swapped out.
On March 03 2012 12:39 VENDIZ wrote: Jazz are really giving it to Miami right now, will be fun to watch if they can play it out or run out of gas in the 4th.. NBA's Mr. ESPORTS himself (Hayward) having a big 3rd quarter so far
Yea, Miami is getting killed. A lot of looseballs popped out of their hands, but without Bosh they look really odd right now. Norris Cole going shot crazy in the first half caused him to get benched v_v.
EPT
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