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On December 01 2014 11:32 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 11:29 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:27 Doublemint wrote:
who says smn's list is legit? who says the general consensus from such an awfully hateful/trollish community does justice to the truth? so you don't feel bad for the guy getting so much hate... just because (he is a cheater not matter what?)
is that what you are saying? I believe death threats aren't warranted but I don't feel bad for the hate he is getting outside of death threats. If you're gonna be that stupid to cheat you should expect hate. allegedly. we worked for thousands of years to establish the rule of law. it might not be convenient and it might not be fun but that's the fairest way we have come up with. I don't see why we should throw that over board just because it is Fnatic Flusha.
Allegedly, yes. But he might end up never getting caught, and I would still believe he cheated. There just isn't a single reasonable explanation for the shit he pulls.
I'll say this again, I've seen the following witch hunts
Freakazoid - 3/4 of the competitive community thought he was cheating in 2010 when he would bunny hop to lobby on nuke as a CT before the T's could get there and prefire everyone perfectly.
Dazed - The most amazing player online in source, perfect game sense and hit every single awp shot. Was completely useless on lan and just baited his team
Colo - most people on here probably don't know who he is but he was basically a human aimbot in source. Probably the biggest raw talent the NA scene has ever seen.
Roca - Unrealistic headshot percentage, half of esea thought he wasn't legit until he did good at esea invite lan
Mosbeck - 100 ADR in invite, the most complete player, perfect game sense and would always be where the other team was going. Complete bot on lan, 40 adr and essentially had no idea what game he was even playing on lan.
Shroud - Came out of nowhere, granted he plays an insane amount and is basically a robot. No one thought he would do good on LAN and people were talking about him like hes the next mosbeck
To this day people still think dazed, freakazoid and mosbeck cheated. Have they been caught? No, but the shit they did wasn't even close to being as obvious as flusha. Everyone has their opinions but at this point regardless of whether or not hes going to be caught his reputation will forever be bad. And this is just the NA scene. I didn't follow the EU scene in source so i'm sure the list is huge. I mean people even thought scream and shox cheated at certain points. Most people just get over it and move on after these people aren't being caught, which will eventually happen to flusha. But it won't change their opinions on them. And again, I think death threats are too extreme and he doesn't deserve that, but I have no sympathy for the general hate he is getting.
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On December 01 2014 10:02 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 04:42 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 02:50 Roggay wrote:Flusha about the cheating accusations : https://www.facebook.com/flushaCSGO/posts/1017158358301049Tbh I feel really bad for them. Receiving death threats and being bullied in general must suck and take out any enjoyment you could have playing the game. And all of that for what are still speculations. You feel bad for someone who has the mentality to withhold an exploit for 2 months? Look at these guys. + Show Spoiler + You should give pity and benefit of the doubt to people who deserve it. Not just everyone blindly. hating them for that is totally fine and to be expected to be honest. but conflating that with all the hack accusations and the bullshit outcry over the map exploit is beyond sanity. if anything, this DH showed that CS:GO/esports has a long way ahead to reach the professionalism of established sport. death threats and not feeling sorry? lol. yeah this community is great indeed.
Andres Escobar in 94 (Colombian football player) was murdered because he scored an own-goal, a goal which at the end put them out of the WC
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On December 01 2014 11:38 Faruko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 10:02 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 04:42 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 02:50 Roggay wrote:Flusha about the cheating accusations : https://www.facebook.com/flushaCSGO/posts/1017158358301049Tbh I feel really bad for them. Receiving death threats and being bullied in general must suck and take out any enjoyment you could have playing the game. And all of that for what are still speculations. You feel bad for someone who has the mentality to withhold an exploit for 2 months? Look at these guys. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjLHduTNxlQ You should give pity and benefit of the doubt to people who deserve it. Not just everyone blindly. hating them for that is totally fine and to be expected to be honest. but conflating that with all the hack accusations and the bullshit outcry over the map exploit is beyond sanity. if anything, this DH showed that CS:GO/esports has a long way ahead to reach the professionalism of established sport. death threats and not feeling sorry? lol. yeah this community is great indeed. Andres Escobar in 94 (Colombian football player) was murdered because he scored an own-goal, a goal which at the end put them out of the WC
what are you saying? this is the standard we should aspire to? lol.
//edit: yeah so let him have the bad reputation. I would take that any day against the hate and spite.
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On December 01 2014 11:40 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 11:38 Faruko wrote:On December 01 2014 10:02 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 04:42 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 02:50 Roggay wrote:Flusha about the cheating accusations : https://www.facebook.com/flushaCSGO/posts/1017158358301049Tbh I feel really bad for them. Receiving death threats and being bullied in general must suck and take out any enjoyment you could have playing the game. And all of that for what are still speculations. You feel bad for someone who has the mentality to withhold an exploit for 2 months? Look at these guys. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjLHduTNxlQ You should give pity and benefit of the doubt to people who deserve it. Not just everyone blindly. hating them for that is totally fine and to be expected to be honest. but conflating that with all the hack accusations and the bullshit outcry over the map exploit is beyond sanity. if anything, this DH showed that CS:GO/esports has a long way ahead to reach the professionalism of established sport. death threats and not feeling sorry? lol. yeah this community is great indeed. Andres Escobar in 94 (Colombian football player) was murdered because he scored an own-goal, a goal which at the end put them out of the WC what are you saying? this is the standard we should aspire to? lol.
No haha, that he says that CS:GO is far far away from sports (wich i agree) but its a situation that even in most established sports happens (and like the example, it can go even further), it should not happen and we as a community should take care of it, but its not a rare situation
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On December 01 2014 11:47 Faruko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 11:40 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 11:38 Faruko wrote:On December 01 2014 10:02 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 04:42 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 02:50 Roggay wrote:Flusha about the cheating accusations : https://www.facebook.com/flushaCSGO/posts/1017158358301049Tbh I feel really bad for them. Receiving death threats and being bullied in general must suck and take out any enjoyment you could have playing the game. And all of that for what are still speculations. You feel bad for someone who has the mentality to withhold an exploit for 2 months? Look at these guys. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjLHduTNxlQ You should give pity and benefit of the doubt to people who deserve it. Not just everyone blindly. hating them for that is totally fine and to be expected to be honest. but conflating that with all the hack accusations and the bullshit outcry over the map exploit is beyond sanity. if anything, this DH showed that CS:GO/esports has a long way ahead to reach the professionalism of established sport. death threats and not feeling sorry? lol. yeah this community is great indeed. Andres Escobar in 94 (Colombian football player) was murdered because he scored an own-goal, a goal which at the end put them out of the WC what are you saying? this is the standard we should aspire to? lol. No haha, that he says that CS:GO is far far away from sports (wich i agree) but its a situation that even in most established sports happens (and like the example, it can go even further), it should not happen and we as a community should take care of it, but its not a rare situation
exactly. finally we are getting somewhere.
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That wasn't by the "normal" fans though, he was murdered by the cartel iirc.
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On December 01 2014 11:23 SyNc` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 11:19 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 11:12 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:08 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 10:59 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 10:02 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 04:42 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 02:50 Roggay wrote:Flusha about the cheating accusations : https://www.facebook.com/flushaCSGO/posts/1017158358301049Tbh I feel really bad for them. Receiving death threats and being bullied in general must suck and take out any enjoyment you could have playing the game. And all of that for what are still speculations. You feel bad for someone who has the mentality to withhold an exploit for 2 months? Look at these guys. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjLHduTNxlQ You should give pity and benefit of the doubt to people who deserve it. Not just everyone blindly. hating them for that is totally fine and to be expected to be honest. but conflating that with all the hack accusations and the bullshit outcry over the map exploit is beyond sanity. if anything, this DH showed that CS:GO/esports has a long way ahead to reach the professionalism of established sport. death threats and not feeling sorry? lol. yeah this community is great indeed. Man you know what I mean't. Obviously nobody deserves to have death threats thrown at them, cause that's frankly bullshit. When you keep saying "community" you should be referencing THOSE people not me. Just because I don't sugar coat everything doesn't mean my heart isn't in the right place. alright then. you are not one of the braindead. it's just hard to keep track of them if there are so many you know. and DH is sending the demos of tournament PCs to valve for further inspection. if they still don't find anything after that the cheaters/cheat coders deserve major credit to be honest. If valve doesn't find anything on the dreamhack pc's that still doesn't change the fact that they could have cheated throughout the year. The cheat has been out since late 2013, so that's a huge window. yeah, so what are we supposed to do then? hate on some people because it's convenient to our beliefs? how come flusha is the only one being singled out? because he is on Fnatic? is it because he is the fishiest? is it because others are not looked so hard after? why not scrape all victories of all teams during this period of time? - because I be damned that cheat is out for so long and ANYBODY could have cheated! would that be a bit harder(and fairer?!) than hating on certain individuals? when does this bullshit end then? you see where I am getting at? I don't know why flusha is the only one being singled out because like I said, smn's list had a lot of players on it. I'm sure people have scrambled to find whatever they could on many players but ended up at flusha.
The easy answer to that is when the list was released, people started scrambling for vods on everyone. They happened to find a suspicious flusha vod first, which made all the people searching vods go "oh flusha's hacking" and focus all their efforts on more flusha vods. Just the fact that the clips emerged over a few days showed that even with all the focus on him it took a fair bit of searching, so who's to say whether they could have found that many on any other player, if the focus/hunt was on that player instead. (Just look at the thing hellraisers did, and the clips people found in a few hours. Flusha has had people scouring years worth of vods for many days now.)
He also mentioned in the statement that he plays "a very mouse lift heavy style" compared to other pros, hence why he looks at walls more. whether that's true or not is w/e, but it would be interesting to see a few videos of randomly selected vods, which count the number of times his mouse stops on a wall over the course of a game (and maybe compare it to a few other players.)
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
Judging game as esports discipline just by level of brains of HLTV/reddit is hilarious though, i have to say.
It's like MOBA games/RTS communities are angels now, so their games are legit.
This witchhunt on Flusha and fnatic in general is hilarious, even if flusha randomly cheats (which i highly doubt to be quite honest, he always played in same fashion).
What's the reason to play games, if you're hated by 95% of community literally, better to retire then and do other things in life.
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Canada4481 Posts
On December 01 2014 13:03 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 11:23 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:19 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 11:12 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:08 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 10:59 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 10:02 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 04:42 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 02:50 Roggay wrote:Flusha about the cheating accusations : https://www.facebook.com/flushaCSGO/posts/1017158358301049Tbh I feel really bad for them. Receiving death threats and being bullied in general must suck and take out any enjoyment you could have playing the game. And all of that for what are still speculations. You feel bad for someone who has the mentality to withhold an exploit for 2 months? Look at these guys. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjLHduTNxlQ You should give pity and benefit of the doubt to people who deserve it. Not just everyone blindly. hating them for that is totally fine and to be expected to be honest. but conflating that with all the hack accusations and the bullshit outcry over the map exploit is beyond sanity. if anything, this DH showed that CS:GO/esports has a long way ahead to reach the professionalism of established sport. death threats and not feeling sorry? lol. yeah this community is great indeed. Man you know what I mean't. Obviously nobody deserves to have death threats thrown at them, cause that's frankly bullshit. When you keep saying "community" you should be referencing THOSE people not me. Just because I don't sugar coat everything doesn't mean my heart isn't in the right place. alright then. you are not one of the braindead. it's just hard to keep track of them if there are so many you know. and DH is sending the demos of tournament PCs to valve for further inspection. if they still don't find anything after that the cheaters/cheat coders deserve major credit to be honest. If valve doesn't find anything on the dreamhack pc's that still doesn't change the fact that they could have cheated throughout the year. The cheat has been out since late 2013, so that's a huge window. yeah, so what are we supposed to do then? hate on some people because it's convenient to our beliefs? how come flusha is the only one being singled out? because he is on Fnatic? is it because he is the fishiest? is it because others are not looked so hard after? why not scrape all victories of all teams during this period of time? - because I be damned that cheat is out for so long and ANYBODY could have cheated! would that be a bit harder(and fairer?!) than hating on certain individuals? when does this bullshit end then? you see where I am getting at? I don't know why flusha is the only one being singled out because like I said, smn's list had a lot of players on it. I'm sure people have scrambled to find whatever they could on many players but ended up at flusha. The easy answer to that is when the list was released, people started scrambling for vods on everyone. They happened to find a suspicious flusha vod first, which made all the people searching vods go "oh flusha's hacking" and focus all their efforts on more flusha vods. Just the fact that the clips emerged over a few days showed that even with all the focus on him it took a fair bit of searching, so who's to say whether they could have found that many on any other player, if the focus/hunt was on that player instead. (Just look at the thing hellraisers did, and the clips people found in a few hours. Flusha has had people scouring years worth of vods for many days now.) He also mentioned in the statement that he plays "a very mouse lift heavy style" compared to other pros, hence why he looks at walls more. whether that's true or not is w/e, but it would be interesting to see a few videos of randomly selected vods, which count the number of times his mouse stops on a wall over the course of a game (and maybe compare it to a few other players.)
Funny someone did just that.
http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2nvk94/unpopular_opinion_about_flusha/
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On December 01 2014 13:09 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
Judging game as esports discipline just by level of brains of HLTV/reddit is hilarious though, i have to say.
It's like MOBA games/RTS communities are angels now, so their games are legit.
This witchhunt on Flusha and fnatic in general is hilarious, even if flusha randomly cheats (which i highly doubt to be quite honest, he always played in same fashion).
What's the reason to play games, if you're hated by 95% of community literally, better to retire then and do other things in life.
I know who you (could) mean, but who did that?
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On December 01 2014 13:09 Nagisama wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 13:03 killerdog wrote:On December 01 2014 11:23 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:19 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 11:12 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:08 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 10:59 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 10:02 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 04:42 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 02:50 Roggay wrote:Flusha about the cheating accusations : https://www.facebook.com/flushaCSGO/posts/1017158358301049Tbh I feel really bad for them. Receiving death threats and being bullied in general must suck and take out any enjoyment you could have playing the game. And all of that for what are still speculations. You feel bad for someone who has the mentality to withhold an exploit for 2 months? Look at these guys. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjLHduTNxlQ You should give pity and benefit of the doubt to people who deserve it. Not just everyone blindly. hating them for that is totally fine and to be expected to be honest. but conflating that with all the hack accusations and the bullshit outcry over the map exploit is beyond sanity. if anything, this DH showed that CS:GO/esports has a long way ahead to reach the professionalism of established sport. death threats and not feeling sorry? lol. yeah this community is great indeed. Man you know what I mean't. Obviously nobody deserves to have death threats thrown at them, cause that's frankly bullshit. When you keep saying "community" you should be referencing THOSE people not me. Just because I don't sugar coat everything doesn't mean my heart isn't in the right place. alright then. you are not one of the braindead. it's just hard to keep track of them if there are so many you know. and DH is sending the demos of tournament PCs to valve for further inspection. if they still don't find anything after that the cheaters/cheat coders deserve major credit to be honest. If valve doesn't find anything on the dreamhack pc's that still doesn't change the fact that they could have cheated throughout the year. The cheat has been out since late 2013, so that's a huge window. yeah, so what are we supposed to do then? hate on some people because it's convenient to our beliefs? how come flusha is the only one being singled out? because he is on Fnatic? is it because he is the fishiest? is it because others are not looked so hard after? why not scrape all victories of all teams during this period of time? - because I be damned that cheat is out for so long and ANYBODY could have cheated! would that be a bit harder(and fairer?!) than hating on certain individuals? when does this bullshit end then? you see where I am getting at? I don't know why flusha is the only one being singled out because like I said, smn's list had a lot of players on it. I'm sure people have scrambled to find whatever they could on many players but ended up at flusha. The easy answer to that is when the list was released, people started scrambling for vods on everyone. They happened to find a suspicious flusha vod first, which made all the people searching vods go "oh flusha's hacking" and focus all their efforts on more flusha vods. Just the fact that the clips emerged over a few days showed that even with all the focus on him it took a fair bit of searching, so who's to say whether they could have found that many on any other player, if the focus/hunt was on that player instead. (Just look at the thing hellraisers did, and the clips people found in a few hours. Flusha has had people scouring years worth of vods for many days now.) He also mentioned in the statement that he plays "a very mouse lift heavy style" compared to other pros, hence why he looks at walls more. whether that's true or not is w/e, but it would be interesting to see a few videos of randomly selected vods, which count the number of times his mouse stops on a wall over the course of a game (and maybe compare it to a few other players.) Funny someone did just that. http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2nvk94/unpopular_opinion_about_flusha/
I think it comes down to two extreme opinions once again. He plays low sensitivity and does that definitely and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it has caused a plenty of false positives. That stuff probably happens with the way he moves. As a whole, I think the whole wallhackish aimlock part of this has been blown out of proportions.
Then again there are also a handful of clips that really still make me feel really uneasy about his play. There are cases where the mouse lifts happen in really odd spots (back and forth movement, multiple 'locks' in one round and so on) and there are some snaps and aiming moments that don't seem human at all. He has some extremely precise snaps through walls and full smoke and there are some plays that don't seem very rational until you see there's an enemy on his crosshair behind the wall for example.
I'd really like to have someone with enough CS experience and an open mind go through the clips and have their rational opinion it. Not just "Obviously this, clearly that", but to actually pick 5-10 clips and talk through the possibilities from both angles and all that.
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Fnatic isn't doing enough to stem the problems. The community is attacking them and they are essentially digging a deeper hole for themselves.
For example, what Devilwalk said on twitter several hours ago, comparing what Fnatic's Boosting spot to Na'Vi vs TongFu's TI3 Fountain Hooks.
Boy you should see all of the responses he got to for it. What he doesn't bother to realize, by continue trying to defend what Fnatic did, he is just making it worse. While yes, fountain hooks Na'Vi did was how they got past TongFu, but it was also a mechanic that has been in the game since DotA 1, and extremely hard to pull off. (Dendi and Puppey are the best Pudge/Chen respectively and made it look simple, not to mention how long they been teammates.). There was some uproar, but not much as it was something people don't tend to see, especially because this is Dendi and Puppey. It was intended mechanic they left in, until Na'Vi used it to win vs TongFu. Regardless, it wasn't anything like having maphacks and being able to see where your opponents are going (which was what the boost spot Fnatic did for 12 rounds in a row).
I still do not believe Flusha cheats, most of the things I have seen, "proofs" are spotty at best and like most conspiracy theorists, they pick and choose their moments. Picking out what they want to see and show it as proof without any other example. 5 screen shots mean jack.
That being said, Fnatic isn't doing enough to protect themselves, or going out of there way to quell it. Devilwalk and Flusha reacting the way they currently are, is basically just adding fuel to the fire. Which is sad because I don't think they even realize they are doing it. For me, he is innocent until proven guilty. Sadly, most people don't see it that way.
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Canada4481 Posts
On December 01 2014 15:48 Bacillus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 13:09 Nagisama wrote:On December 01 2014 13:03 killerdog wrote:On December 01 2014 11:23 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:19 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 11:12 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:08 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 10:59 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 10:02 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 04:42 Slardar wrote:[quote] You feel bad for someone who has the mentality to withhold an exploit for 2 months? Look at these guys. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjLHduTNxlQ You should give pity and benefit of the doubt to people who deserve it. Not just everyone blindly. hating them for that is totally fine and to be expected to be honest. but conflating that with all the hack accusations and the bullshit outcry over the map exploit is beyond sanity. if anything, this DH showed that CS:GO/esports has a long way ahead to reach the professionalism of established sport. death threats and not feeling sorry? lol. yeah this community is great indeed. Man you know what I mean't. Obviously nobody deserves to have death threats thrown at them, cause that's frankly bullshit. When you keep saying "community" you should be referencing THOSE people not me. Just because I don't sugar coat everything doesn't mean my heart isn't in the right place. alright then. you are not one of the braindead. it's just hard to keep track of them if there are so many you know. and DH is sending the demos of tournament PCs to valve for further inspection. if they still don't find anything after that the cheaters/cheat coders deserve major credit to be honest. If valve doesn't find anything on the dreamhack pc's that still doesn't change the fact that they could have cheated throughout the year. The cheat has been out since late 2013, so that's a huge window. yeah, so what are we supposed to do then? hate on some people because it's convenient to our beliefs? how come flusha is the only one being singled out? because he is on Fnatic? is it because he is the fishiest? is it because others are not looked so hard after? why not scrape all victories of all teams during this period of time? - because I be damned that cheat is out for so long and ANYBODY could have cheated! would that be a bit harder(and fairer?!) than hating on certain individuals? when does this bullshit end then? you see where I am getting at? I don't know why flusha is the only one being singled out because like I said, smn's list had a lot of players on it. I'm sure people have scrambled to find whatever they could on many players but ended up at flusha. The easy answer to that is when the list was released, people started scrambling for vods on everyone. They happened to find a suspicious flusha vod first, which made all the people searching vods go "oh flusha's hacking" and focus all their efforts on more flusha vods. Just the fact that the clips emerged over a few days showed that even with all the focus on him it took a fair bit of searching, so who's to say whether they could have found that many on any other player, if the focus/hunt was on that player instead. (Just look at the thing hellraisers did, and the clips people found in a few hours. Flusha has had people scouring years worth of vods for many days now.) He also mentioned in the statement that he plays "a very mouse lift heavy style" compared to other pros, hence why he looks at walls more. whether that's true or not is w/e, but it would be interesting to see a few videos of randomly selected vods, which count the number of times his mouse stops on a wall over the course of a game (and maybe compare it to a few other players.) Funny someone did just that. http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2nvk94/unpopular_opinion_about_flusha/ I think it comes down to two extreme opinions once again. He plays low sensitivity and does that definitely and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it has caused a plenty of false positives. That stuff probably happens with the way he moves. As a whole, I think the whole wallhackish aimlock part of this has been blown out of proportions. Then again there are also a handful of clips that really still make me feel really uneasy about his play. There are cases where the mouse lifts happen in really odd spots (back and forth movement, multiple 'locks' in one round and so on) and there are some snaps and aiming moments that don't seem human at all. He has some extremely precise snaps through walls and full smoke and there are some plays that don't seem very rational until you see there's an enemy on his crosshair behind the wall for example. I'd really like to have someone with enough CS experience and an open mind go through the clips and have their rational opinion it. Not just "Obviously this, clearly that", but to actually pick 5-10 clips and talk through the possibilities from both angles and all that.
Funny someone did just that too.
http://en.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2n9bbn/the_thoughts_of_a_former_esl_demo_reviewing_admin/
Not sure how much you'd take credentials from random people on reddit, but he's a supposed anti-cheat admin for ESL.
On December 01 2014 16:28 Seraphic wrote:
Fnatic isn't doing enough to stem the problems. The community is attacking them and they are essentially digging a deeper hole for themselves.
For example, what Devilwalk said on twitter several hours ago, comparing what Fnatic's Boosting spot to Na'Vi vs TongFu's TI3 Fountain Hooks.
Boy you should see all of the responses he got to for it. What he doesn't bother to realize, by continue trying to defend what Fnatic did, he is just making it worse. While yes, fountain hooks Na'Vi did was how they got past TongFu, but it was also a mechanic that has been in the game since DotA 1, and extremely hard to pull off. (Dendi and Puppey are the best Pudge/Chen respectively and made it look simple, not to mention how long they been teammates.). There was some uproar, but not much as it was something people don't tend to see, especially because this is Dendi and Puppey. It was intended mechanic they left in, until Na'Vi used it to win vs TongFu. Regardless, it wasn't anything like having maphacks and being able to see where your opponents are going (which was what the boost spot Fnatic did for 12 rounds in a row).
I still do not believe Flusha cheats, most of the things I have seen, "proofs" are spotty at best and like most conspiracy theorists, they pick and choose their moments. Picking out what they want to see and show it as proof without any other example. 5 screen shots mean jack.
That being said, Fnatic isn't doing enough to protect themselves, or going out of there way to quell it. Devilwalk and Flusha reacting the way they currently are, is basically just adding fuel to the fire. Which is sad because I don't think they even realize they are doing it. For me, he is innocent until proven guilty. Sadly, most people don't see it that way.
pronax made the tweet about the fountain hook, not devilwalk, but definitely a good point. They keep trying to justify their game breaking find. While the fountain hooks looked actually interesting because of how difficult it is to pull off, and how hiliarious and pointless it'd be if it failed, their Overpass boost just dumbed down the entire half way too much.
It probably wouldn't have been as bad if they didn't already have such a bad history of shitty sportsmanship/bad PR etc. The NiP-fnatic handshake thing, schneider apparently did something too but I forgot what it was, flusha witch hunt, and now this.
The boosts other teams did weren't even as bad tbh. It didn't see as much of the map, and it wasn't on an invisible pixel. They were just 2 players stacked on that truck, which I've heard Anders mention about in a cast leading up to DHW.
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On December 01 2014 05:29 Seraphic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 04:54 RagequitBM wrote:
Honestly his post is pretty accurate about the community. I really don't understand why people have to be so mean to eachother, life is already hard enough as it is without others making it harder for one another. I don't think he's cheating personally, but I guess time will tell. It's the way things happened, and how the team handled it during DHW. Flusha was getting a lot of hate already, mainly stemming from the usual Reddit hate train (like the mods on that side EVER do anything about). Then in DHW, they go ahead and pull off one of the most hated and game breaking boost spots you can do. THEN on top of that, they counter LDLC's complaint with something that is used quite regularly. THEN LDLC was pushed out of the way, their complaint took 6 hours while Fnatic's took 30 minutes. (While LDLC wasn't allowed to speak to the admins when Fnatic was). Fnatic and their CS:GO team handled things the most terrible way possible. I don't know what the hell they are doing recently but they have been creating drama left and right. (DotA 2 and the way they handled Era, and eventually breaking up the Fnatic team that has been together for so long). Fnatic and Flusha aren't gaining any sympathetic votes for themselves. And he goes to release this? How is THIS going to help his or his team's situation? Especially for DHW when they were laughing on stream when they did that boost 12 rounds in a row, effectively winning off of it? The internet will always have people without a brain, the hate-train people ride on constantly and don't think for themselves. But this is absolutely Fnatic and Flusha's fault. They haven't done anything to quell all of the issues, just trying to side step it and attack the community for it. You should be talking to the fans, and people who are normal and can think for themselves. You will always have haters, always. Grouping everyone into that hate group going around is just going to make things worse. Not better.
This x100. They way they handled things is beyond stupid. They had the perfect oppurtunity to get their reputation back on track. I actually can't think of anything more stupid to do in that situation, except playing with spinning aimbot negev ratatata.
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On December 01 2014 11:23 SyNc` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 11:19 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 11:12 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:08 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 10:59 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 10:02 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 04:42 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 02:50 Roggay wrote:Flusha about the cheating accusations : https://www.facebook.com/flushaCSGO/posts/1017158358301049Tbh I feel really bad for them. Receiving death threats and being bullied in general must suck and take out any enjoyment you could have playing the game. And all of that for what are still speculations. You feel bad for someone who has the mentality to withhold an exploit for 2 months? Look at these guys. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjLHduTNxlQ You should give pity and benefit of the doubt to people who deserve it. Not just everyone blindly. hating them for that is totally fine and to be expected to be honest. but conflating that with all the hack accusations and the bullshit outcry over the map exploit is beyond sanity. if anything, this DH showed that CS:GO/esports has a long way ahead to reach the professionalism of established sport. death threats and not feeling sorry? lol. yeah this community is great indeed. Man you know what I mean't. Obviously nobody deserves to have death threats thrown at them, cause that's frankly bullshit. When you keep saying "community" you should be referencing THOSE people not me. Just because I don't sugar coat everything doesn't mean my heart isn't in the right place. alright then. you are not one of the braindead. it's just hard to keep track of them if there are so many you know. and DH is sending the demos of tournament PCs to valve for further inspection. if they still don't find anything after that the cheaters/cheat coders deserve major credit to be honest. If valve doesn't find anything on the dreamhack pc's that still doesn't change the fact that they could have cheated throughout the year. The cheat has been out since late 2013, so that's a huge window. yeah, so what are we supposed to do then? hate on some people because it's convenient to our beliefs? how come flusha is the only one being singled out? because he is on Fnatic? is it because he is the fishiest? is it because others are not looked so hard after? why not scrape all victories of all teams during this period of time? - because I be damned that cheat is out for so long and ANYBODY could have cheated! would that be a bit harder(and fairer?!) than hating on certain individuals? when does this bullshit end then? you see where I am getting at? I don't know why flusha is the only one being singled out because like I said, smn's list had a lot of players on it. I'm sure people have scrambled to find whatever they could on many players but ended up at flusha. My point is that its pretty much a general consensus that he did cheat and even if by some miracle he's never caught, I won't feel bad about him getting so much hate. CS has been plagued with shit like this and community witch hunts and finding the new "online" player. But in the 5 years I've been playing competitive CS I haven't seen a single person do the things flusha is doing right now. I gave a short list of examples of players that have been in flusha's situation a few pages back, but none of them were as blatant as flusha, and none of them got caught either.
I've played since 2000 and competitively for 6years, and i have not seen anyone locking through stuff that often either.
I don't have pity for this guy, his facebook post is accurate but they did everything they could to keep the hate ie. Not saying anything AND having the nerve to counter-protest at DHW. (The boost is shitty but understandable, every team will ise exploits if they find one.) all half and counterprotesting while their opponent did something less worse for 1round though...? The nerve.
That, plus handshake, plus cheating.... There's rarely that much smoke without fire, it sometimes is discovered only years after when technology evolves, look at cycling.
Anyway since the cs subforum would be pretty small at first, I'd be willing to help moderate, at least until it grows so much i'm not able to follow everything.
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On December 01 2014 11:38 SyNc` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 11:32 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 11:29 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:27 Doublemint wrote:
who says smn's list is legit? who says the general consensus from such an awfully hateful/trollish community does justice to the truth? so you don't feel bad for the guy getting so much hate... just because (he is a cheater not matter what?)
is that what you are saying? I believe death threats aren't warranted but I don't feel bad for the hate he is getting outside of death threats. If you're gonna be that stupid to cheat you should expect hate. allegedly. we worked for thousands of years to establish the rule of law. it might not be convenient and it might not be fun but that's the fairest way we have come up with. I don't see why we should throw that over board just because it is Fnatic Flusha. Allegedly, yes. But he might end up never getting caught, and I would still believe he cheated. There just isn't a single reasonable explanation for the shit he pulls. I'll say this again, I've seen the following witch hunts Freakazoid - 3/4 of the competitive community thought he was cheating in 2010 when he would bunny hop to lobby on nuke as a CT before the T's could get there and prefire everyone perfectly. Dazed - The most amazing player online in source, perfect game sense and hit every single awp shot. Was completely useless on lan and just baited his team Colo - most people on here probably don't know who he is but he was basically a human aimbot in source. Probably the biggest raw talent the NA scene has ever seen. Roca - Unrealistic headshot percentage, half of esea thought he wasn't legit until he did good at esea invite lan Mosbeck - 100 ADR in invite, the most complete player, perfect game sense and would always be where the other team was going. Complete bot on lan, 40 adr and essentially had no idea what game he was even playing on lan. Shroud - Came out of nowhere, granted he plays an insane amount and is basically a robot. No one thought he would do good on LAN and people were talking about him like hes the next mosbeck To this day people still think dazed, freakazoid and mosbeck cheated. Have they been caught? No, but the shit they did wasn't even close to being as obvious as flusha. Everyone has their opinions but at this point regardless of whether or not hes going to be caught his reputation will forever be bad. And this is just the NA scene. I didn't follow the EU scene in source so i'm sure the list is huge. I mean people even thought scream and shox cheated at certain points. Most people just get over it and move on after these people aren't being caught, which will eventually happen to flusha. But it won't change their opinions on them. And again, I think death threats are too extreme and he doesn't deserve that, but I have no sympathy for the general hate he is getting.
No. Stop it.
Looking at flash from 2010 you could easily call that map hacks. If some one who wasnt a pro did that on line everyone, literally, would be 100% sure it was hacking. But it was in fact just the best anyone had ever played the game.
If we let people accuse anyone of cheating without proof just because they felt something looked strange, we end up with a game where all the amazing plays are tainted by suspicion and all the fans of a team calling it hacks when their team loses. This is something that could kill this game.
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On December 01 2014 16:58 Nagisama wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 15:48 Bacillus wrote:On December 01 2014 13:09 Nagisama wrote:On December 01 2014 13:03 killerdog wrote:On December 01 2014 11:23 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:19 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 11:12 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:08 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 10:59 Slardar wrote:On December 01 2014 10:02 Doublemint wrote:
[quote]
hating them for that is totally fine and to be expected to be honest.
but conflating that with all the hack accusations and the bullshit outcry over the map exploit is beyond sanity.
if anything, this DH showed that CS:GO/esports has a long way ahead to reach the professionalism of established sport.
death threats and not feeling sorry? lol. yeah this community is great indeed.
Man you know what I mean't. Obviously nobody deserves to have death threats thrown at them, cause that's frankly bullshit. When you keep saying "community" you should be referencing THOSE people not me. Just because I don't sugar coat everything doesn't mean my heart isn't in the right place. alright then. you are not one of the braindead. it's just hard to keep track of them if there are so many you know. and DH is sending the demos of tournament PCs to valve for further inspection. if they still don't find anything after that the cheaters/cheat coders deserve major credit to be honest. If valve doesn't find anything on the dreamhack pc's that still doesn't change the fact that they could have cheated throughout the year. The cheat has been out since late 2013, so that's a huge window. yeah, so what are we supposed to do then? hate on some people because it's convenient to our beliefs? how come flusha is the only one being singled out? because he is on Fnatic? is it because he is the fishiest? is it because others are not looked so hard after? why not scrape all victories of all teams during this period of time? - because I be damned that cheat is out for so long and ANYBODY could have cheated! would that be a bit harder(and fairer?!) than hating on certain individuals? when does this bullshit end then? you see where I am getting at? I don't know why flusha is the only one being singled out because like I said, smn's list had a lot of players on it. I'm sure people have scrambled to find whatever they could on many players but ended up at flusha. The easy answer to that is when the list was released, people started scrambling for vods on everyone. They happened to find a suspicious flusha vod first, which made all the people searching vods go "oh flusha's hacking" and focus all their efforts on more flusha vods. Just the fact that the clips emerged over a few days showed that even with all the focus on him it took a fair bit of searching, so who's to say whether they could have found that many on any other player, if the focus/hunt was on that player instead. (Just look at the thing hellraisers did, and the clips people found in a few hours. Flusha has had people scouring years worth of vods for many days now.) He also mentioned in the statement that he plays "a very mouse lift heavy style" compared to other pros, hence why he looks at walls more. whether that's true or not is w/e, but it would be interesting to see a few videos of randomly selected vods, which count the number of times his mouse stops on a wall over the course of a game (and maybe compare it to a few other players.) Funny someone did just that. http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2nvk94/unpopular_opinion_about_flusha/ I think it comes down to two extreme opinions once again. He plays low sensitivity and does that definitely and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it has caused a plenty of false positives. That stuff probably happens with the way he moves. As a whole, I think the whole wallhackish aimlock part of this has been blown out of proportions. Then again there are also a handful of clips that really still make me feel really uneasy about his play. There are cases where the mouse lifts happen in really odd spots (back and forth movement, multiple 'locks' in one round and so on) and there are some snaps and aiming moments that don't seem human at all. He has some extremely precise snaps through walls and full smoke and there are some plays that don't seem very rational until you see there's an enemy on his crosshair behind the wall for example. I'd really like to have someone with enough CS experience and an open mind go through the clips and have their rational opinion it. Not just "Obviously this, clearly that", but to actually pick 5-10 clips and talk through the possibilities from both angles and all that. Funny someone did just that too. http://en.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2n9bbn/the_thoughts_of_a_former_esl_demo_reviewing_admin/Not sure how much you'd take credentials from random people on reddit, but he's a supposed anti-cheat admin for ESL. Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 16:28 Seraphic wrote:
Fnatic isn't doing enough to stem the problems. The community is attacking them and they are essentially digging a deeper hole for themselves.
For example, what Devilwalk said on twitter several hours ago, comparing what Fnatic's Boosting spot to Na'Vi vs TongFu's TI3 Fountain Hooks.
Boy you should see all of the responses he got to for it. What he doesn't bother to realize, by continue trying to defend what Fnatic did, he is just making it worse. While yes, fountain hooks Na'Vi did was how they got past TongFu, but it was also a mechanic that has been in the game since DotA 1, and extremely hard to pull off. (Dendi and Puppey are the best Pudge/Chen respectively and made it look simple, not to mention how long they been teammates.). There was some uproar, but not much as it was something people don't tend to see, especially because this is Dendi and Puppey. It was intended mechanic they left in, until Na'Vi used it to win vs TongFu. Regardless, it wasn't anything like having maphacks and being able to see where your opponents are going (which was what the boost spot Fnatic did for 12 rounds in a row).
I still do not believe Flusha cheats, most of the things I have seen, "proofs" are spotty at best and like most conspiracy theorists, they pick and choose their moments. Picking out what they want to see and show it as proof without any other example. 5 screen shots mean jack.
That being said, Fnatic isn't doing enough to protect themselves, or going out of there way to quell it. Devilwalk and Flusha reacting the way they currently are, is basically just adding fuel to the fire. Which is sad because I don't think they even realize they are doing it. For me, he is innocent until proven guilty. Sadly, most people don't see it that way. pronax made the tweet about the fountain hook, not devilwalk, but definitely a good point. They keep trying to justify their game breaking find. While the fountain hooks looked actually interesting because of how difficult it is to pull off, and how hiliarious and pointless it'd be if it failed, their Overpass boost just dumbed down the entire half way too much. It probably wouldn't have been as bad if they didn't already have such a bad history of shitty sportsmanship/bad PR etc. The NiP-fnatic handshake thing, schneider apparently did something too but I forgot what it was, flusha witch hunt, and now this. The boosts other teams did weren't even as bad tbh. It didn't see as much of the map, and it wasn't on an invisible pixel. They were just 2 players stacked on that truck, which I've heard Anders mention about in a cast leading up to DHW.
Ya it was pronax, my fault~
Also, just because you used to play competitively and you cannot replicate what Flusha does, doesn't mean he is hacking by the way. Give me absolute proof, not screen shots, not 2-4 seconds of gif of him aiming through a wall. I want to see 100% proof. Give me his keyboard/mouse camera work while he is playing, give me all the replays, not the ones you choose to select.
People online are so quick to judge it's just amazing. Until someone out there is able to think through it and give out proof that is undeniable, then ok.
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On December 01 2014 17:04 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 11:38 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:32 Doublemint wrote:On December 01 2014 11:29 SyNc` wrote:On December 01 2014 11:27 Doublemint wrote:
who says smn's list is legit? who says the general consensus from such an awfully hateful/trollish community does justice to the truth? so you don't feel bad for the guy getting so much hate... just because (he is a cheater not matter what?)
is that what you are saying? I believe death threats aren't warranted but I don't feel bad for the hate he is getting outside of death threats. If you're gonna be that stupid to cheat you should expect hate. allegedly. we worked for thousands of years to establish the rule of law. it might not be convenient and it might not be fun but that's the fairest way we have come up with. I don't see why we should throw that over board just because it is Fnatic Flusha. Allegedly, yes. But he might end up never getting caught, and I would still believe he cheated. There just isn't a single reasonable explanation for the shit he pulls. I'll say this again, I've seen the following witch hunts Freakazoid - 3/4 of the competitive community thought he was cheating in 2010 when he would bunny hop to lobby on nuke as a CT before the T's could get there and prefire everyone perfectly. Dazed - The most amazing player online in source, perfect game sense and hit every single awp shot. Was completely useless on lan and just baited his team Colo - most people on here probably don't know who he is but he was basically a human aimbot in source. Probably the biggest raw talent the NA scene has ever seen. Roca - Unrealistic headshot percentage, half of esea thought he wasn't legit until he did good at esea invite lan Mosbeck - 100 ADR in invite, the most complete player, perfect game sense and would always be where the other team was going. Complete bot on lan, 40 adr and essentially had no idea what game he was even playing on lan. Shroud - Came out of nowhere, granted he plays an insane amount and is basically a robot. No one thought he would do good on LAN and people were talking about him like hes the next mosbeck To this day people still think dazed, freakazoid and mosbeck cheated. Have they been caught? No, but the shit they did wasn't even close to being as obvious as flusha. Everyone has their opinions but at this point regardless of whether or not hes going to be caught his reputation will forever be bad. And this is just the NA scene. I didn't follow the EU scene in source so i'm sure the list is huge. I mean people even thought scream and shox cheated at certain points. Most people just get over it and move on after these people aren't being caught, which will eventually happen to flusha. But it won't change their opinions on them. And again, I think death threats are too extreme and he doesn't deserve that, but I have no sympathy for the general hate he is getting. No. Stop it. Looking at flash from 2010 you could easily call that map hacks. If some one who wasnt a pro did that on line everyone, literally, would be 100% sure it was hacking. But it was in fact just the best anyone had ever played the game. If we let people accuse anyone of cheating without proof just because they felt something looked strange, we end up with a game where all the amazing plays are tainted by suspicion and all the fans of a team calling it hacks when their team loses. This is something that could kill this game.
I agree that looking at clips of strange looking moments in a game is not sufficient to be certain someone is hacking, since that opens you up to confirmation bias and base rate neglect, but the nature of the strangeness needs to be taken into account. In Flash's case, his "strange" actions benefited him. In some of the strange things Flusha did, like aim at an enemy's head through a mouse movement that a legitimate player would almost never make or flick and shoot at an enemy's head without being close enough to hear him or even in a position to hit him, and then looking away again, he is doing things that give him no advantage even in hindsight, with complete information. At 1:16 in the same video, he performs a flickshot which is unnoticeable to the human eye at normal speed, and also appeared to have been made through the player right in front of him. Compare this and the other weaker evidence to how often this happens to all professionals, and you can calculate the odds that this is not due to chance.
EDIT: That doesn't eliminate the other possibilities, such as a strange way of using the mouse, uncommon thought processes, etc, but unless these actions can be replicated through a mouse-lift-heavy style or another way of thinking about the game, cheating is by far the most likely option among the balance of odds.
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Why are people never talking about this cache clip where flusha hits a perfect 10 bullets spray in Kioshima's face through the A main's wall to short? The probability that this would happen is ridiculously low, and this is by far the most fishy clip. You can kind of explain the snaps to heads (even if you actually can't in my opinion, because on some clips where he needs to turn around quickly, his mouse sweeps are long enough to turn 180, and on others he can't turn more then 45° for some reason. Plus his sweeps aren't always horizontal even on such short distances, which is really odd for someone who is supposed to have crazy mouse control), but the cache wallbang is really hard to swallow.
Also you can't compare that to Flash being suspected of maphack, it has a mechanical component, not only a "knowledge" he's not supposed to have but he could guess.
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and you can calculate the odds that this is not due to chance.
u wot m8
But seriously, your argument above could be summed up as: "You're right but I still think he's not legit.", because all you've done is postulate that flusha's actions 'probably' aren't explained by chance.
I think if you take these things into account:
- 16 tick demos
- players are generally facing the portion of the map where the opposing players could/might be
- flicks can be very accurate, even in smoke
- LOD movements look very bizarre, always
- these guys have played much more CS than you have
- a pro hacker would have to be pretty foolish to misconfigure a hack that badly
It would appear that the odds of suspicious movements occurring is very high, because the players are trying to do these things. (This should be pretty obvious... flusha is trying to kill those opposing players, he WOULD be trying to face them/flick to them etc etc). With all this in mind, there are only a couple of instances where plausibility is stretched - not even close to being enough 'evidence' to declare someone a hacker.
If pro's are hacking they'll have to be caught by technical means, not by demo-scouring - because demos will never give you the information you need to prove a well hidden hack.
Edit:
I think I need to reiterate something very important that people are missing. The fact that gotv is 16tick. This is pretty critical... You're missing a full 3/4 of the player's data... for example: if flusha's mouse had spent 50ms (1/20th of a second) 'locked' onto somebody's head... his client data would have 4 'ticks' of data on the guy's head... gotv reduces that 1 tick... As in, you can only see an approximation of flusha's actions - a 'snapshot', if you like - for every 62.5ms (1000/16 ms). Bear in mind that 2 ticks of data would create a line of movement (such as the time when flusha's aim is tracking up a player's body in one of the gifs)... to determine whether the aim was legit or not you'd need at least a 3rd tick of data... flusha would have to lock on precisely for almost 1/5th of a second before the shot appears to be non-legit. Everything in between those ticks is interpolation by the displaying client.
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EPT
