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On July 29 2017 10:43 bo1b wrote:
Srs and ed will be king.
Bow levelling is significantly better than it was though, absolutely no doubt about it with how early you can get pierce.
The guys who are actually top for ED (embbu) level as firestorm and similar things but we're usually talking Occultist here. Shadow is pretty much the one class that can reasonably level as ED but I'd be surprised if there aren't better options that swap to ED when they're ready for maps, even more so in a party if that's of any concern to someone.
Sunder is pretty much uncontested in terms of speed to my knowledge (Onslaught!), then comes SRS (bit luck dependant, need that 2R2B helm badly). Then I'd put a long break until we're at all the usual suspects aka Totems, Traps/Mines, various casters, I'd assume ED in this pack as well, but on the slower end. Then there's another gap until we arrive at bow builds (super gg when they get their drops, horrible if they don't) and whatever is left basically. As usual for anything that's not the last tier being good at racing usually helps more than the specific build.
Note I didn't try levelling as ED in beta so this is bo1bs chance to call me full of shit because he actually did fast runs with it. Unless I'm misremembering lag & me did a 5h total run with a lucky SRS & a bit slower early on... something Marauder totem build iirc? I think that rough 5h range till end of A8 is a reasonable benchmark overall but can definitely be improved.
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Random question to everyone, I feel stuck in terms of bandit rewards on quite a few builds. Alira feels godlike for levelling because of the res and bit of mana regen. Kraityn has that sweet, sweet move/attackspeed and the skillpoints are pretty decent as well. I think for builds that are attack based Kraityn is an easy choice, for casters (even crit) I'm torn because as good as Alira is it will never make a massive difference in DPS but you might lose quite a bit of pace compared to Kraityn stuff.
Kinda tempted to favor Alira on Witch/Templar/Shadow builds that have issues getting to good resist nodes in some cases while favoring Kraityn on Scion/Marauder/Duelist that can compensate resist easily with nodes.
I also have a really hard time justifying Oak compared to the other options but maybe someone else has good input here.
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Take two passive points instead. use those 2 points to get one jewel and craft your own 3-4 bonuses and you will get a superior result 
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Evo for sunder being uncontested for speed, do you mean leveling or at doing actual maps?
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On July 29 2017 11:13 r.Evo wrote:
Random question to everyone, I feel stuck in terms of bandit rewards on quite a few builds. Alira feels godlike for levelling because of the res and bit of mana regen. Kraityn has that sweet, sweet move/attackspeed and the skillpoints are pretty decent as well. I think for builds that are attack based Kraityn is an easy choice, for casters (even crit) I'm torn because as good as Alira is it will never make a massive difference in DPS but you might lose quite a bit of pace compared to Kraityn stuff.
Kinda tempted to favor Alira on Witch/Templar/Shadow builds that have issues getting to good resist nodes in some cases while favoring Kraityn on Scion/Marauder/Duelist that can compensate resist easily with nodes.
I also have a really hard time justifying Oak compared to the other options but maybe someone else has good input here.
1. Look at planned tree and see if 2 point can be used super effectively, in some builds 2 points can be very strong, in others meh. Decide if these two points can get you more value than the bandit reward.
2. Don't pick oak.
3. If you don't care about speed and are crit, pick alira. If you do care about speed, pick Kraityn.
If you do end up going bandits its usually a tradeoff of like 2% damage for 6% movespeed and AS, unless you had a weird build that needed the resistance 6% MS/AS is way better than 2% damage,
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So then srs is looking to be king for start if season and getting to red maps\uber lab\ guardians super fast?
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On July 29 2017 12:15 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2017 11:13 r.Evo wrote:
Random question to everyone, I feel stuck in terms of bandit rewards on quite a few builds. Alira feels godlike for levelling because of the res and bit of mana regen. Kraityn has that sweet, sweet move/attackspeed and the skillpoints are pretty decent as well. I think for builds that are attack based Kraityn is an easy choice, for casters (even crit) I'm torn because as good as Alira is it will never make a massive difference in DPS but you might lose quite a bit of pace compared to Kraityn stuff.
Kinda tempted to favor Alira on Witch/Templar/Shadow builds that have issues getting to good resist nodes in some cases while favoring Kraityn on Scion/Marauder/Duelist that can compensate resist easily with nodes.
I also have a really hard time justifying Oak compared to the other options but maybe someone else has good input here. 1. Look at planned tree and see if 2 point can be used super effectively, in some builds 2 points can be very strong, in others meh. Decide if these two points can get you more value than the bandit reward. 2. Don't pick oak. 3. If you don't care about speed and are crit, pick alira. If you do care about speed, pick Kraityn. If you do end up going bandits its usually a tradeoff of like 2% damage for 6% movespeed and AS, unless you had a weird build that needed the resistance 6% MS/AS is way better than 2% damage,
Yeah, that is overall how I'd understand it as well. I feel like I can justify Alira easier on a day1 build if you're top side of the tree but will prolly aim for the MS for most ideas.
On July 29 2017 12:52 hunts wrote:
So then srs is looking to be king for start if season and getting to red maps\uber lab\ guardians super fast?
There are enough options that I'd not phrase it that way. One guy on my list who usually goes ham plans to push for quick Guardians as RF, others will do ED and there will be quite a few different builds for sure.
Is SRS even known for farming Guardians specifically? I know Karv used to do that but he always ran with a Guardian at that time.
For farming lab SRS is pretty awful since they're never doing what you want them to do, super hard to get full key runs done with it. All in all I'd call SRS an extremely strong allrounder (similar vein as strong totem builds) and that's where it shines. If it's a build you enjoy then by all means go for it, I'd put it in the highest tiers for starting out in general for sure.
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On July 29 2017 13:17 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2017 12:15 sob3k wrote:On July 29 2017 11:13 r.Evo wrote:
Random question to everyone, I feel stuck in terms of bandit rewards on quite a few builds. Alira feels godlike for levelling because of the res and bit of mana regen. Kraityn has that sweet, sweet move/attackspeed and the skillpoints are pretty decent as well. I think for builds that are attack based Kraityn is an easy choice, for casters (even crit) I'm torn because as good as Alira is it will never make a massive difference in DPS but you might lose quite a bit of pace compared to Kraityn stuff.
Kinda tempted to favor Alira on Witch/Templar/Shadow builds that have issues getting to good resist nodes in some cases while favoring Kraityn on Scion/Marauder/Duelist that can compensate resist easily with nodes.
I also have a really hard time justifying Oak compared to the other options but maybe someone else has good input here. 1. Look at planned tree and see if 2 point can be used super effectively, in some builds 2 points can be very strong, in others meh. Decide if these two points can get you more value than the bandit reward. 2. Don't pick oak. 3. If you don't care about speed and are crit, pick alira. If you do care about speed, pick Kraityn. If you do end up going bandits its usually a tradeoff of like 2% damage for 6% movespeed and AS, unless you had a weird build that needed the resistance 6% MS/AS is way better than 2% damage, Yeah, that is overall how I'd understand it as well. I feel like I can justify Alira easier on a day1 build if you're top side of the tree but will prolly aim for the MS for most ideas. Show nested quote +On July 29 2017 12:52 hunts wrote:
So then srs is looking to be king for start if season and getting to red maps\uber lab\ guardians super fast? There are enough options that I'd not phrase it that way. One guy on my list who usually goes ham plans to push for quick Guardians as RF, others will do ED and there will be quite a few different builds for sure. Is SRS even known for farming Guardians specifically? I know Karv used to do that but he always ran with a Guardian at that time. For farming lab SRS is pretty awful since they're never doing what you want them to do, super hard to get full key runs done with it. All in all I'd call SRS an extremely strong allrounder (similar vein as strong totem builds) and that's where it shines. If it's a build you enjoy then by all means go for it, I'd put it in the highest tiers for starting out in general for sure.
I see, thanks. Honestly I've never really played srs, but I'm looking for a good league starter I'd I'm playing to put a lot of time in and try hard at the start if the league, preferaby something that can also transition well into the highest gear levels as well. I'm not sure what that would be this season. Last season i started out as ngamahus cyclone and farmed red maps\guardians and uber lab to farm up the currency to make a Howa st build. Not sure what to do this tine.
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You can comfortably farm guardians with srs, only thing it really struggles with is lab.
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@hunts It sounds like you want a "do it all" sort of build? because "red maps\uber lab\ guardians" are all quite different, and if my goal was to be as quick as possible I would choose a different build for each goal. also are you SC or HC player?
To answer your question, I would say ED occultist is best option for HC. No gear requirement to get started, but it gets great with gear, is very tanky. with contagion radius buff the clear is improved, and was already acceptable - not T1 speed, but rank 3 overall in SSFHC Mayhem was ED. It's also very good in lab (wicked ward) and vs bosses once you have enough gear. in 3.0 specifically, ED lost some survivability (lower ES pool), but gained AoE and damage (direct 25% damage buff iirc). it's a great choice if you like the playstyle
for SC deadeye/raider wander might be a better choice. I'm kind of hesitant because I think the gear will be very expensive as people are bandwagoning hard onto wander builds, but bo1b seems confident that gear requirement isnt too bad. Wander is one of the OP builds untouched by 3.0 that can still get millions of dps, the problem is that your survivability is kind of bad until you have insane gear. If you're SC this is not a big deal though, by the time you hit lvl 92+ and you care about deaths, you'll have the gear to survive. and you'll have insane speed clear and damage. This is probably going to be my SC build
SRS is an option for either league, but it is not a good uber lab farmer. I also think it's an inferior boss killer since your SRS can just get straight up killed until you have lvl 20/21 gems. clear is amazing though
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Well, everyone has different aims. I personally don't care about farming difficult stuff like Guardians, Shaper and Uber Lab (if you that, your options are indeed limited). I will feel fine if my build can farm the "to-go" map, be it Shore with Beyond or something like that, without much risk of dying.
Best thing about SRS is the clear indeed, and the playstyle. Not needing to aim at stuff.
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I see, thanks. I play SC. Also I guess I don't need a build to do all the things, just 1 or 2 to farm currency. The only time I tried srs was in a league that I had almost no time to play and so my gear was bad and I didn't play it much further than yellow maps and had slow clear speed. Could be fun to try srs when I actually have time to tryhard. Wander also sounds fun, but that might be better after getting some gear.
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On July 29 2017 07:46 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2017 05:02 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On July 29 2017 05:00 sob3k wrote:
The actual solution would involve rethinking the charge system to be more situational and conditional. Making it more of a mechanical challenge to acquire and maintain charges, and rebalancing rewards to reward this. The current situation is just too simple and easy to get charges. When anyone can get full charges from mechanisms that work on pretty much every character with no sacrifice (pcoc orb, frenzy, jaws, etc), then the charge system just becomes a boring overall damage increase throughout the entire game. While your solution sounds good in theory. In practice if charges are good then the only viable ones are the builds which can generate and maintain them. You can say It is too simple to get charges now, but either charges are good and you have to deal with annoying mechanics like casting Enduring Cry like we did back in the day or you have every build using a great mechanic to generate. Well thats not true, there are tons of really strong things in the game that aren't universally used, because they require specialization and have compensatory drawbacks. -added projectiles are really great for barrage, but obviously not for bladefall -Shade of solaris gives a great damage boost on recent crit, great for low crit builds, but you can't use it on a crit build because of the drawback -Brutality is really strong, but it locks out many damage flasks and auras, but it combines well with MOM and blood magic -Your marauder trapper is crappy because it takes 100 points to get to clever construction -Devotos is a really strong helm, but not for a bleed or stun build which needs to generate large hits I mean I don't even really have to give examples, as long as the mechanic isn't "X% increased generic damage", then it can be made strong in some build and situations, and weak in others. You can also add a ton more items and keystones that change how charges function to the mix, to allow even more specialization and widespread usage without homogenization ("frenzy charges now just give you 10% AS, frenzy charges now just add a percentage of your armor to hits....etc etc." Also if charges are tricky to generate and maintain, they won't be universally used. If you need a specific glove and boot combo to generate frenzies as a caster for example, then any caster that needs a build defining unique in that spot will be heavily disincentivized to utilize the charges. Its a question of balance whether that build ends up more or less or equal in power to a similar charge using build.
Charges are X increased generic damage that don't have drawbacks so I'm not really sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that charges be changed so that they aren't generic anymore or are useless unless you have some unique that makes them do something else?
By only making charges hard to generate you add a party support dimension to the game that is bad design in my opinion.
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re: Bandit choices, something Echelon mentioned to me that we missed so far, Kraityn makes not much sense for DW racing since you're leapslamming most of your time. Suddenly it's just the bit of attackspeed and you're most likely better off with the skillpoints.
On July 29 2017 16:50 hunts wrote:
I see, thanks. I play SC. Also I guess I don't need a build to do all the things, just 1 or 2 to farm currency. The only time I tried srs was in a league that I had almost no time to play and so my gear was bad and I didn't play it much further than yellow maps and had slow clear speed. Could be fun to try srs when I actually have time to tryhard. Wander also sounds fun, but that might be better after getting some gear.
If you're homing in on SRS/ED then I'd say take a look at uberelites video and/or Ghazzys guide and see what SRS looks like to you. I played one in the Turmoil and can attest that the progression was super smooth. Dark Mage cards were ~5c each on day1-2. Baron was 15c and dropped to 2-3c after a week.
For Essence Drain embbus guide might be the best source for 3.0 when it comes to Occultist, you can also see his Shaper/Uber videos in that thread. Notably life based Trickster is also a strong option here that you could explore.
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I honestly think life based trickster ed will be stupidly strong over all, especially with the frenzy changes.
Wanding needs very little gear over all, if you can get yourself to about level 70 or so you can probably afford the gear to get started (literally just need a piscator and 2 4 links). The problem wanding has more than anything is getting there comfortably, but I levelled up a wander in the mayhem league via spectral throw till about level 50 and then I was laughing.
With lets say 1ex of gear overall wanding has probably got top tier clear speed already, especially as a life based qotf raider - which will undoubtedly be the overall pick of choice. Crit capped with choir of the storm and zooming around dodge capped and chilling at 200%+ move speed one shotting a screen.
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Unless things change radically until release I think I will play two starter builds.
With a friend a Necro that uses Mirror and Blink arrow minions. Auras will help my friend as well. This build will be half SRS until I can get Lioneye bow that is needed for the build. Once I get really rich I will then respec this character into the Scourge Wild Strike Necro I posted earlier.
Second character that I plan to play alone will be the self cast Vortex Trickster using new Power Charge mechanics to scale the damage even more but not going critical hit. If this will not work in 3.0 because of some yet unknown changes I might switch the character to ED/Contagion instead or do the FireStorm Berserker I also posted earlier.
In some future I also want to try a Scion totem character with Soul Mantle and 2 Kikarazu to be immune to curses. I want to have a character that is immune to all map curses for more fun mapping
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On July 29 2017 23:45 bo1b wrote:
I honestly think life based trickster ed will be stupidly strong over all, especially with the frenzy changes.
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Frenzy charges will give only cast/attack speed for ED. Power charges will give more spell dmg. You will get both of them as trickster, so in terms of charges everything stays the same or worse if you invest into frenzy charges. I think what you mean is the increased DoT from the trickster ascendancy, but it will apply to both power and frenzy charges. Luckily you get them both now.
Also for racing I see Kraityn to be the best choice, you will never only leap (be it some time in town, around corners etc.) and even if you play like a god and leap at every good occasion, it also gives some attack speed. Also saves you few seconds where you'd need to kill him and get the reward in town (not a lot I know).
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On July 30 2017 00:33 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2017 23:45 bo1b wrote:
I honestly think life based trickster ed will be stupidly strong over all, especially with the frenzy changes.
?_? Frenzy charges will give only cast/attack speed for ED. Power charges will give more spell dmg. You will get both of them as trickster, so in terms of charges everything stays the same or worse if you invest into frenzy charges. I think what you mean is the increased DoT from the trickster ascendancy, but it will apply to both power and frenzy charges. Luckily you get them both now. Also for racing I see Kraityn to be the best choice, you will never only leap (be it some time in town, around corners etc.) and even if you play like a god and leap at every good occasion, it also gives some attack speed. Also saves you few seconds where you'd need to kill him and get the reward in town (not a lot I know).
What he means is that now you can ignore frenzy charges, get your damage from power charges (which are easier to path) *and* get increased damage for both PC and FC from the reworked Trickster passive. The kinda builds he and me are considering got straight up buffed by the changes.
On July 29 2017 23:45 bo1b wrote:
I honestly think life based trickster ed will be stupidly strong over all, especially with the frenzy changes.
Wanding needs very little gear over all, if you can get yourself to about level 70 or so you can probably afford the gear to get started (literally just need a piscator and 2 4 links). The problem wanding has more than anything is getting there comfortably, but I levelled up a wander in the mayhem league via spectral throw till about level 50 and then I was laughing.
With lets say 1ex of gear overall wanding has probably got top tier clear speed already, especially as a life based qotf raider - which will undoubtedly be the overall pick of choice. Crit capped with choir of the storm and zooming around dodge capped and chilling at 200%+ move speed one shotting a screen.
That sounds like a super fun second build. I'm a bit torn this league cause I have way too many great starters in mind but I'm not sure at all about later stuff I want to play. I think raider should be high on that list since it's just fun to play. :3
I found a few people on reddit arguing that life-based HoWA is in a strong place now (since you're now only using one claw and can fit in e.g. Lycosidae but I haven't looked into that at all myself yet.
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Wander sounds like it could be fun, never played one btut i remember my friends wand builds looking fun back when it was kinetic blast, I imagine it's barage now?
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On July 30 2017 00:58 hunts wrote:
Wander sounds like it could be fun, never played one btut i remember my friends wand builds looking fun back when it was kinetic blast, I imagine it's barage now?
ST Barrage, clearing with Kinetic Blast. Basically use the gloves with added lightning dmg and added lightning gem for basically a 5 link so you can do both fairly well. Depending on needs/gear you choose the stronger set up for whatever of the two. With GG gear I think people were doing KB in the 4L gloves and Barrage as 6L.
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EPT
