TL Chess Match 4 - Page 30
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pburns
United States12 Posts
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On August 17 2011 06:26 noclaninator wrote: Okay here we go. Let the campaign for a weird move begin... + Show Spoiler + 4. b4. This move challenges the bishop's position (think Evan's gambit). If this pawn offering is taken then we play c3 followed by d4 gaining time and challenging the center. Otherwise, we are telling that bishop to gtfo. It is an interesting move to me. My vote: 4. b4 + Show Spoiler + The issue here is that there is now nothing to protect f2 except for our king, this is disadvantageous because it becomes easier for our king to be drawn towards center. This stacks with the fact that all of our attention is on queen side where as the black's king side knight can reach our king in 2 turns with no opposition, and then it just goes downhill from there because all of our turns are dodging check while black just takes board control. 0-0 + Show Spoiler + I've seen the most logical reasoning for castling now, I'd have to agree with Blazinghand | ||
imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + We need to block or start contesting the g1-a7 diagonal right now. I know this isn't blitz chess and it's not easy to get away with piece sacrifices this early in the game, but if we do not block the diagonal and play Bb5xc6, dxc6, Nf3xe5, then we risk an eventual Bc5xf2, Kxf2, Qh4+ if our king's knight out of place on e5 if we decide to take the pawn. He'll then be able to take the e pawn if we do not move towards to defend it, which draws out our king towards the middle. Gambit pawns aimed at the bishop are protected by the knight, and if we move our king's knight, we're going to end up in a variation of the position I mentioned above. That being said, b4 is not a very good move either. One way to protect our position is with d3, defending e4 and allowing the queen's bishop to defend f2 with Be3. d4 is stupid, Nc3 doesn't do much for us and blocks the c-pawn, and taking the Knight on c6 doesn't do anything about that bishop. However, this is probably a suboptimal move compared to c3. c3 with the idea of playing d4 on the very next move might work the best. That'd lead to an interesting position with our queen exposed in the middle of the board vs 1 or no developed pieces. However, he could just harass our queen and bishop on the field, which might lead to an annoying position with our bishop and queen on the wrong side of the board if he castles kingside. Nevertheless, I think this is still our best shot Castling right now is a bit early for my taste. We'd then have to play reactively with black controlling the board. | ||
Sandwhale
United States20 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + One of the most important things in a positional opening such as the Ruy Lopez, is to play a position as noncommittally as possible. [O-O] is going to be played in the opening moves no matter what line we decide, but the important thing is that we don't have to commit our pawn structure if we don't have to. Many people are saying that [4.c3] prepare [d4] in the near future, but it really doesn't. There's very few black responses that will allow a quick d4, and those that do will probably leave us in a situation with our center pawns over committed on d4 and e5. [4. O-O] allows us to react to his position without forcing weaknesses in our own. | ||
nordlyset
Norway38 Posts
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + We can delay castling while developing a little further, and this allows us to aggressively contest control of the centre. | ||
Mumu
Korea (South)56 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + O-O lets us be more reactive in the future. I agree with BlazingHands initial comments. Ill be away from the message board for the next 3 days. Im on a business trip in Japan. Sorry for the brief analysis, but BlazingHands and Soluwhin are spot on. | ||
Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
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aphorism
United States226 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I like it better than d3, and I don't think we'll have problems defending our kingside from anything. Also, it reminds me of O_O | ||
EvilNalu
United States91 Posts
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Get the king out of harm's way and develop etc. Strong positional move that isn't over committing. C3 still throws away a move. 4. Nc3 is a lot stronger now though, but it loses the tempo which is what the primary problem with c3 is. It looks like he's gonna castle kingside, so there is no immediate threat Another advantage of castling is if he fails to respond, then 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. Nxe5 then if 6. ...Qd4 7. Nf3, black can't recapture the pawn because of the skewer. Black has to instead play a move like 5. ...d6 or Nge7, then we can commit to a center push with 6. c3. | ||
LaXerCannon
Canada558 Posts
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wuBu
United States83 Posts
On August 18 2011 01:02 mastergriggy wrote: 4. 0-0 + Show Spoiler + Get the king out of harm's way and develop etc. Strong positional move that isn't over committing. C3 still throws away a move. 4. Nc3 is a lot stronger now though, but it loses the tempo which is what the primary problem with c3 is. It looks like he's gonna castle kingside, so there is no immediate threat Another advantage of castling is if he fails to respond, then 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. Nxe5 then if 6. ...Qd4 7. Nf3, black can't recapture the pawn because of the skewer. Black has to instead play a move like 5. ...d6 or Nge7, then we can commit to a center push with 6. c3. + Show Spoiler + c3 does not throw away a move/loses the tempo like you say. The main lines usually occur 4. c3 or 4. 0-0. Not saying you're wrong, there's nothing wrong with 4. 0-0 since it is just as strong as 4. c3. Like I stated before, White's follow-up normally in this opening is an eventual d4 push. So 0-0 now and then a c3 d4 push or c3, castle on move 5, then d4 are both equally good paths to take. But stating that c3 "throws away a move" is not correct. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
On August 17 2011 04:31 Blazinghand wrote: 4. O-O + Show Spoiler [._.] + So... I mean I'm pretty sure the response here is to castle to guard the pawn right? Okay I'm not meaning to hate here, but why is there a group of people (maybe not always the SAME people) who want to play c3 on every move? SERIOUSLY. It's like Nader, always getting votes and taking away from the real election. It's an acceptable move for once, finally... But on topic, the book response to classical defense is to castle. It guards the f pawn with something besides the King and we need to castle anyways so it's not a waste of a move. Hey, I've voted for Nader twice, don't hate. If more people felt the way you do then we would only have two parties ever contesting... oh wait. | ||
Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
4. O-O | ||
ParanoiaHoT
United States103 Posts
On August 17 2011 22:28 Mumu wrote: 4. O-O + Show Spoiler + O-O lets us be more reactive in the future. I agree with BlazingHands initial comments. Ill be away from the message board for the next 3 days. Im on a business trip in Japan. Sorry for the brief analysis, but BlazingHands and Soluwhin are spot on. Lol I swear to god no one even reads my posts. I knew it. | ||
chesshaha
United States1117 Posts
On August 18 2011 03:55 qrs wrote: I don't understand this argument against 4. Nxe5. Here's the position you don't like, and what I would do there: + Show Spoiler [continued] + ![]() In this position, I would play 8. f4. Now, Black has to move his Bishop, if he doesn't want to sac it for no apparent reason. His possibilities are: Bf6 (blocking avenues of development for the Knight and Queen; also vulnerable to being forced away with e5 whenever we choose), Bc7 (relatively passive position for the Bishop, blocks a strong avenue of development for the Queen), or Bb8 (completely undeveloping the Bishop). Play might continue 8... Bf6 9. 0-0, leading to this position: ![]() Do you really think Black is better here? I prefer White's position. Black has some problems with developing his Knight/castling. As for ...d5, we can respond to it with e5, and because of our Kingside development and Black's lack of it, I think this is stronger for us than for Black. + Show Spoiler + Yes. I think 8. f4 is the best follow up, but I would play Bc7 as black. I think this position is pretty even at this point. BUT, 4. c3 or 4 0-0 white has the advantage imo. So basicly 4. Nxe5 just throws away our advantage, though it is a fancy way to play. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
I'm not voting yet, but here is my summary of the discussion about 4. Nxe5 and my contribution to it. (I picked Nxe5 because it's a plausible possibility, and there's little enough discussion on it that I can cover it all.)
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On August 18 2011 04:49 qrs wrote: [*]An argument against 4. Nxe5, suggesting a different line for BlackThis is a very interesting line that's worth looking into. Black's suggested 4th move is a tactical possibility that's often surprisingly strong in positions where White advances his Knight without having done much development. As regards the position itself, I'm not sure how to assess it at a glance. I'm not sure what the line jd was thinking of in which White wins a pawn but has bad pawn structure. One way I could see the position continuing is + Show Spoiler [continued] + 8. f3 Bxf3 9. gxf3 Qg2 10. Rf1 Bb6 11. Bf4, leading to ![]() an interesting position where material is even, although I'd say that it's White with the pawn structure advantage. [*]My own opinion of 4. Nxe5 Although this is an aggressive line, I don't see any problems with it, and several of the continuations posted are quite interesting. Nonetheless, I lean against this move for one simple reason, which was stated in passing by jdseemore glass: + Show Spoiler [Why I lean against 4. Nxe5] + It leads to early simplification: at least one pair of pieces will almost certainly be exchanged. This early in the game, I'd like to leave things as complex as possible, by leaving all the pieces on the board. Thanks for the compliments qrs, and thanks for correcting my move (5. ... h5). I knew when I was writing out all the lines and variations, I would make at least one mistake ![]() After looking at the position further, I think you are right that we cannot hold on to the extra pawn. We get a strong center in exchange for weakened development and a vulnerable king, which is simply not worth it in my opinion. Also, simplification is kind of boring in correspondence chess. For anyone who didn't read my post on pg. 29, I am bumping it below. On August 17 2011 08:36 jdseemoreglass wrote: A look at our various book possibilities: + Show Spoiler + The move 4. Nxe5 will lead to 4. ... Qg5 5. Ng4 h5 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. d4 Bxg4 ![]() Although white will be up a pawn, his development is terrible, while blacks is nearly complete. No matter how white responds from here, his pawn structure will be compromised, making the extra pawn hardly a benefit at all. This line also leads to very fast simplification which is simply not as fun as a complex and nuanced correspondence game. I would suggest anyone who favors 4. Nxe5 should look at this position and reconsider their move. The move 4. Bxc6 will lead to 4. ... dxc6 5. Nxe5 bxf7 6. Kxf7 Qd4+, winning the material back with a clear advantage, since white's king is in a weak position and will have to invest a few moves in protecting it. ![]() The two most solid and standard moves we can make here are 4. c3 and 4. O-O. Each of them have arguments for and against them, but they are both safe and solid choices. After 4. O-O, black has two primary options: 4. ... Nd4 and 4. ... Nge7. Let's take a look at the move Nd4 first, which leads to an exchange of knights. After 4. O-O Nd4 5. Nxd4 Bxd4 6. c3 Bb7 7. d4 c6 we have two options. 8. Ba4 and 8. Bc4. After 8. Ba4 the book line typically proceeds as follows: 8. ... d6 9. Na3 exd4 10. cxd4 Ne7 11. Bg5 f6 12. Bf4 O-O. At that point the position looks like this: ![]() If we play 8. Bc4 the line follows: 8. ... d6 9. Qb3 Qc7, and the position looks like this: ![]() I doubt that black will choose either of these lines and the early simplification. If black decides against the Knight trade, he will most like play 4. ... Nge7, which can be followed by c3 and a standard game. If we play 4. c3, before castling, the game can go into a huge number of possibilities and variations, some of them extremely tactical and explosive. Let's take a look at a few of the possibilities which do not include an early castle, to differentiate the possibilities compared with 4. O-O. 4. c3 d5 5. Nxe5 Qg5 6. O-O Qxe5 7. d4 Qe6 8. dxc5 dxe4 9. Bf4 ![]() 4. c3 f5 5. d4 fxe4 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. Nxe5 Bd6 8. Qh5+ g6 9. Qe2 Qh4 10. h3 ![]() 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 Bb6 6. Qe2 exd4 7. e5 O-O 8. cxd4 Re8 9. Be3 Nd5 10. Nc3 Nxc3 11. bxc3 ![]() Here white has an advantage in space, but he is a little over-extended, and his pawn structure can be compromised immediately while his king is still in the center. One of the more complicated variations can follow: 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ne4, which can lead to several different book lines and unclear positions. ![]() After carefully reviewing the various possibilities and positions, I think 4. c3 is the right move here, + Show Spoiler + because it is extremely flexible and can lead to positions that are favorable for white that are excluded by playing castle first. with 4. c3 we retain the option of either safely castling at any time, or immediately taking the center with d4. By keeping our king in the center, we also give black a much larger range of possible aggressive moves, which I think lead to advantages with white if we play correctly. You always want to retain the possibility of your opponent playing incorrectly. 4. c3 prevents black from choosing to transition to the top two positions with Nd4, and is also the more aggressive option here, as we threaten to immediately cramp black's game and take control of the center. Castling first will provide an extra tempo for black to produce either counter-attacking or defensive possibilities. | ||
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