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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 30

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pburns
Profile Joined February 2011
United States12 Posts
August 17 2011 01:31 GMT
#581
4.c3 -- Lets get tactical asap.
Get more ahead. - Day[9]
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
August 17 2011 01:54 GMT
#582
On August 17 2011 06:26 noclaninator wrote:
Okay here we go. Let the campaign for a weird move begin...

+ Show Spoiler +
4. b4. This move challenges the bishop's position (think Evan's gambit). If this pawn offering is taken then we play c3 followed by d4 gaining time and challenging the center. Otherwise, we are telling that bishop to gtfo. It is an interesting move to me.


My vote: 4. b4

+ Show Spoiler +
The issue here is that there is now nothing to protect f2 except for our king, this is disadvantageous because it becomes easier for our king to be drawn towards center. This stacks with the fact that all of our attention is on queen side where as the black's king side knight can reach our king in 2 turns with no opposition, and then it just goes downhill from there because all of our turns are dodging check while black just takes board control.


0-0
+ Show Spoiler +
I've seen the most logical reasoning for castling now, I'd have to agree with Blazinghand
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 07:51:24
August 17 2011 07:50 GMT
#583
I vote 4. c3

+ Show Spoiler +
We need to block or start contesting the g1-a7 diagonal right now. I know this isn't blitz chess and it's not easy to get away with piece sacrifices this early in the game, but if we do not block the diagonal and play Bb5xc6, dxc6, Nf3xe5, then we risk an eventual Bc5xf2, Kxf2, Qh4+ if our king's knight out of place on e5 if we decide to take the pawn. He'll then be able to take the e pawn if we do not move towards to defend it, which draws out our king towards the middle.

Gambit pawns aimed at the bishop are protected by the knight, and if we move our king's knight, we're going to end up in a variation of the position I mentioned above. That being said, b4 is not a very good move either.

One way to protect our position is with d3, defending e4 and allowing the queen's bishop to defend f2 with Be3. d4 is stupid, Nc3 doesn't do much for us and blocks the c-pawn, and taking the Knight on c6 doesn't do anything about that bishop. However, this is probably a suboptimal move compared to c3.

c3 with the idea of playing d4 on the very next move might work the best. That'd lead to an interesting position with our queen exposed in the middle of the board vs 1 or no developed pieces. However, he could just harass our queen and bishop on the field, which might lead to an annoying position with our bishop and queen on the wrong side of the board if he castles kingside. Nevertheless, I think this is still our best shot

Castling right now is a bit early for my taste. We'd then have to play reactively with black controlling the board.
im deaf
Sandwhale
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States20 Posts
August 17 2011 11:00 GMT
#584
4. O-O

+ Show Spoiler +
One of the most important things in a positional opening such as the Ruy Lopez, is to play a position as noncommittally as possible. [O-O] is going to be played in the opening moves no matter what line we decide, but the important thing is that we don't have to commit our pawn structure if we don't have to.

Many people are saying that [4.c3] prepare [d4] in the near future, but it really doesn't. There's very few black responses that will allow a quick d4, and those that do will probably leave us in a situation with our center pawns over committed on d4 and e5.

[4. O-O] allows us to react to his position without forcing weaknesses in our own.
nordlyset
Profile Joined July 2011
Norway38 Posts
August 17 2011 11:08 GMT
#585
4. c3
Jumbled
Profile Joined September 2010
1543 Posts
August 17 2011 11:16 GMT
#586
4. c3

+ Show Spoiler +
We can delay castling while developing a little further, and this allows us to aggressively contest control of the centre.
Mumu
Profile Joined October 2010
Korea (South)56 Posts
August 17 2011 13:28 GMT
#587
4. O-O

+ Show Spoiler +
O-O lets us be more reactive in the future. I agree with BlazingHands initial comments.


Ill be away from the message board for the next 3 days. Im on a business trip in Japan. Sorry for the brief analysis, but BlazingHands and Soluwhin are spot on.
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4727 Posts
August 17 2011 15:44 GMT
#588
4. c3
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
aphorism
Profile Joined February 2011
United States226 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 15:50:11
August 17 2011 15:49 GMT
#589
4. O-O

+ Show Spoiler +
I like it better than d3, and I don't think we'll have problems defending our kingside from anything. Also, it reminds me of O_O
EvilNalu
Profile Joined May 2010
United States91 Posts
August 17 2011 15:56 GMT
#590
4. c3
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
August 17 2011 16:02 GMT
#591
4. 0-0

+ Show Spoiler +
Get the king out of harm's way and develop etc. Strong positional move that isn't over committing. C3 still throws away a move. 4. Nc3 is a lot stronger now though, but it loses the tempo which is what the primary problem with c3 is. It looks like he's gonna castle kingside, so there is no immediate threat

Another advantage of castling is if he fails to respond, then 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. Nxe5 then if 6. ...Qd4 7. Nf3, black can't recapture the pawn because of the skewer. Black has to instead play a move like 5. ...d6 or Nge7, then we can commit to a center push with 6. c3.
Write your own song!
LaXerCannon
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada558 Posts
August 17 2011 18:13 GMT
#592
4. 0-0
Just keep swimming
wuBu
Profile Joined February 2011
United States83 Posts
August 17 2011 18:22 GMT
#593
On August 18 2011 01:02 mastergriggy wrote:
4. 0-0

+ Show Spoiler +
Get the king out of harm's way and develop etc. Strong positional move that isn't over committing. C3 still throws away a move. 4. Nc3 is a lot stronger now though, but it loses the tempo which is what the primary problem with c3 is. It looks like he's gonna castle kingside, so there is no immediate threat

Another advantage of castling is if he fails to respond, then 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. Nxe5 then if 6. ...Qd4 7. Nf3, black can't recapture the pawn because of the skewer. Black has to instead play a move like 5. ...d6 or Nge7, then we can commit to a center push with 6. c3.



+ Show Spoiler +
c3 does not throw away a move/loses the tempo like you say. The main lines usually occur 4. c3 or 4. 0-0. Not saying you're wrong, there's nothing wrong with 4. 0-0 since it is just as strong as 4. c3. Like I stated before, White's follow-up normally in this opening is an eventual d4 push. So 0-0 now and then a c3 d4 push or c3, castle on move 5, then d4 are both equally good paths to take. But stating that c3 "throws away a move" is not correct.
"It's the way that I'm living that makes me who I am. It's the things I do that you wouldn't understand."
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 19:50:57
August 17 2011 18:55 GMT
#594
post superseded by my post below it.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
August 17 2011 19:06 GMT
#595
On August 17 2011 04:31 Blazinghand wrote:
4. O-O


+ Show Spoiler [._.] +

So... I mean I'm pretty sure the response here is to castle to guard the pawn right?

Okay I'm not meaning to hate here, but why is there a group of people (maybe not always the SAME people) who want to play c3 on every move? SERIOUSLY. It's like Nader, always getting votes and taking away from the real election. It's an acceptable move for once, finally...

But on topic, the book response to classical defense is to castle. It guards the f pawn with something besides the King and we need to castle anyways so it's not a waste of a move.

Hey, I've voted for Nader twice, don't hate.
If more people felt the way you do then we would only have two parties ever contesting... oh wait.

University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
August 17 2011 19:08 GMT
#596
The way I look at this opening is to get out Knight and Bishop out so we can castle. Normally it's a move or so later, but why not earlier?

4. O-O
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
ParanoiaHoT
Profile Joined August 2010
United States103 Posts
August 17 2011 19:30 GMT
#597
On August 17 2011 22:28 Mumu wrote:
4. O-O

+ Show Spoiler +
O-O lets us be more reactive in the future. I agree with BlazingHands initial comments.


Ill be away from the message board for the next 3 days. Im on a business trip in Japan. Sorry for the brief analysis, but BlazingHands and Soluwhin are spot on.



Lol I swear to god no one even reads my posts. I knew it.
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
August 17 2011 19:48 GMT
#598
On August 18 2011 03:55 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2011 07:00 Raysalis wrote:
On August 17 2011 06:34 chesshaha wrote:
On August 17 2011 06:23 Raysalis wrote:
4. Nxe5

+ Show Spoiler +


The move that I normally play against the classical. Black usually play the following 2 moves.
4. ... Nxe5
5. d4 Bxd4
6. Qxd4
and i like the white position

or

4. ... Bxf2
5. Kxf2 Nxe5
6. Rf1
and black can try several tactical lines but i think its mostly good for white (in my opinion :p)

I think the main move in this position is 4. O-O with the idea to play c3 then d4. 4. c3 just transpose to the 4. O-O line except if black play 4 .... Nd4 after 4.O-O, where the best move is probably 5.Nxd4 Bxd4 6. c3

After 4. O-O Nf6+ Show Spoiler +

5. c3 usually black will play 5. ... O-O but I cant remember what white should do if black just take the pawn with 5.... Nxe4 since white usually play Re1 in this kind of position but it doesn't work here because of Bxf2. If white plays 6. d4 exd4 7. cxd4 Bb6 8. Re1 d5 it looks like black should be okay here and i dont like white d4 pawn.



I don't think 4. Nxe5 is a good move...
+ Show Spoiler +
Have you considered
4. ... Nxe5
5. d4 c6
6. Be2 Bd6
7. dxe5 Bxe5

Black has the upper hand here imo.


Hmm, you have a point, i think i will change to 4. O-O

+ Show Spoiler +
Actually found a game i played in that line a while back which end in a draw and it does looks good for black. I think the position is level after that move order and obviously not what white wants since black easily counter break with d5 and level the position. I wonder why my past opponents didnt play this way :p.

Dont really remember any theory from the classical main line though other than white wants to go c3 and d4.
I don't understand this argument against 4. Nxe5. Here's the position you don't like, and what I would do there: + Show Spoiler [continued] +
[image loading]
In this position, I would play 8. f4. Now, Black has to move his Bishop, if he doesn't want to sac it for no apparent reason. His possibilities are: Bf6 (blocking avenues of development for the Knight and Queen; also vulnerable to being forced away with e5 whenever we choose), Bc7 (relatively passive position for the Bishop, blocks a strong avenue of development for the Queen), or Bb8 (completely undeveloping the Bishop).

Play might continue 8... Bf6 9. 0-0, leading to this position:
[image loading]
Do you really think Black is better here? I prefer White's position. Black has some problems with developing his Knight/castling. As for ...d5, we can respond to it with e5, and because of our Kingside development and Black's lack of it, I think this is stronger for us than for Black.



+ Show Spoiler +
Yes. I think 8. f4 is the best follow up, but I would play Bc7 as black. I think this position is pretty even at this point. BUT, 4. c3 or 4 0-0 white has the advantage imo. So basicly 4. Nxe5 just throws away our advantage, though it is a fancy way to play.
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-18 16:55:08
August 17 2011 19:49 GMT
#599
Edit: updated with response to chesshaha's post above and with update to my response to jdseemoreglass's post

I'm not voting yet, but here is my summary of the discussion about 4. Nxe5 and my contribution to it. (I picked Nxe5 because it's a plausible possibility, and there's little enough discussion on it that I can cover it all.)
  • Flawed argument for 4. Ne5
    On August 17 2011 06:26 indigoawareness wrote:
    4. Nxe

    + Show Spoiler +
    4.... Nxe 5. d4 forking the nite and bishop. Seems like a pretty simple trick. Of course he won't fall for it but seems to me like we just scooped up a free pawn. I haven't had to much time to go over counterplay so I'll update later when I have more time to think about it. Feel free to tell me why this wouldn't work.
    There's no free pawn here: read a couple of the lines posted in the spoilers below.

  • Argument against 4. Nxe5 and my response to it
    On August 17 2011 07:00 Raysalis wrote:
    Show nested quote +
    On August 17 2011 06:34 chesshaha wrote:
    On August 17 2011 06:23 Raysalis wrote:
    4. Nxe5

    + Show Spoiler +


    The move that I normally play against the classical. Black usually play the following 2 moves.
    4. ... Nxe5
    5. d4 Bxd4
    6. Qxd4
    and i like the white position

    or

    4. ... Bxf2
    5. Kxf2 Nxe5
    6. Rf1
    and black can try several tactical lines but i think its mostly good for white (in my opinion :p)

    I think the main move in this position is 4. O-O with the idea to play c3 then d4. 4. c3 just transpose to the 4. O-O line except if black play 4 .... Nd4 after 4.O-O, where the best move is probably 5.Nxd4 Bxd4 6. c3

    After 4. O-O Nf6+ Show Spoiler +

    5. c3 usually black will play 5. ... O-O but I cant remember what white should do if black just take the pawn with 5.... Nxe4 since white usually play Re1 in this kind of position but it doesn't work here because of Bxf2. If white plays 6. d4 exd4 7. cxd4 Bb6 8. Re1 d5 it looks like black should be okay here and i dont like white d4 pawn.



    I don't think 4. Nxe5 is a good move...
    + Show Spoiler +
    Have you considered
    4. ... Nxe5
    5. d4 c6
    6. Be2 Bd6
    7. dxe5 Bxe5

    Black has the upper hand here imo.


    Hmm, you have a point, i think i will change to 4. O-O

    + Show Spoiler +
    Actually found a game i played in that line a while back which end in a draw and it does looks good for black. I think the position is level after that move order and obviously not what white wants since black easily counter break with d5 and level the position. I wonder why my past opponents didnt play this way :p.

    Dont really remember any theory from the classical main line though other than white wants to go c3 and d4.
    I don't understand this argument against 4. Nxe5. Here's the position you don't like, and what I would do there: + Show Spoiler [continued] +
    [image loading]
    In this position, I would play 8. f4. Now, Black has to move his Bishop, if he doesn't want to sac it for no apparent reason. His possibilities are: Bf6 (blocking avenues of development for the Knight and Queen; also vulnerable to being forced away with e5 whenever we choose), Bc7 (relatively passive position for the Bishop, blocks a strong avenue of development for the Queen), or Bb8 (completely undeveloping the Bishop).

    Play might continue 8... Bf6 9. 0-0, leading to this position:
    [image loading]
    Do you really think Black is better here? I prefer White's position. Black has some problems with developing his Knight/castling. As for ...d5, we can respond to it with e5, and because of our Kingside development and Black's lack of it, I think this is stronger for us than for Black.

    + Show Spoiler [chesshaha's response to my respo…] +
    On August 18 2011 04:48 chesshaha wrote:
    Yes. I think 8. f4 is the best follow up, but I would play Bc7 as black. I think this position is pretty even at this point. BUT, 4. c3 or 4 0-0 white has the advantage imo. So basicly 4. Nxe5 just throws away our advantage, though it is a fancy way to play.

    My further response to chesshaha.

    For the most part, I think that's fair enough. As I say below, I do lean against 4. Nxe5 for the reason that it leads to + Show Spoiler [one word] +
    simplification
    and chesshaha's line is one demonstration of that. For what it's worth, here is my take on the position following the end of this line (in my opinion White still has an edge, although possibly less of one than offered by other 4th moves). + Show Spoiler [continued] +
    Here is the line in question: 4. Nxe5 Nxe5 5. d4 c6 6. Be2 Bd6 7. dxe5 Bxe5 8. f4 Bc7, leading to
    [image loading]
    This position is fairly simplified, with neither side having developed very much. White has a development lead over Black, and controls more of the board; on the other hand, the b7-g1 diagonal may cause him problems (as White is in no position to castle Queenside).

    If White castles immediately with 8. 0-0, Black can redevelop his Bishop at a strong position for free (tempo-wise with 8. ...Bb6+. The forced response is 9. Kh1, after which Black can develop his Kingside Knight with 9...Nf6, and I do think Black has at least an even position.

    However, the White move that I'd favor is 8. c4!? attempting to take advantage of Black's lack of development to further strengthen our control over the board, which is a strength of our position.

    At a glance, the move appears dangerously neglectful of development, especially as 8...Bb6 can then prevent us from castling, but I don't think that Black will be able to take advantage of this. I would argue the merits of c4 more extensively, but as this is a single, extended line, in a position that we don't seem likely to ever reach, I'll leave it at this for now unless someone wants to discuss it further.

  • Flawed argument against 4. Nxe5
    On August 17 2011 06:40 Blazinghand wrote:you guys really need to read chesshaha's spoiler and change your moves. I agree with him entirely.

    + Show Spoiler +
    The fork won't work, we'll just go down a pawn and position. 5 ... c6 crushes us so lets cast votes for c3 or O-O please.
    I addressed this in my response above, but re this post, I'd like to say that the part about "going down a pawn" is mistaken. In fact, let me just state it outright: anyone who talks about either side going down a pawn by force after 4. Nxe5 is wrong.

  • Argument against Nxe5 that seems to be responding to a straw man
    On August 17 2011 09:38 Babyfactory wrote:
    I need to point out that 4. Nxe5 DOES NOT WORK (and apparently so has everyone else with different variations). I stated already in my previous spoiler why it doesn't work, but I'm going to leave this unspoilered as someone posted a move order trying to defend it.

    4. Nxe5 Bxf2+! 5. Kxf2 Nxe5 6. Re1 <--- Re1 doesn't do anything. There is still a pawn on e4 protecting the Knight on e5.

    I'm voting for 4. c3 as stated before: + Show Spoiler +
    3 ... Bc5 - this response has fallen out of fashion and used to be the standard response to Bb5.

    If he plays 3 .. Bc5 I'd like to point out that 4. Nxe5 is quite a poor choice compared to 4. c3. It would seem nice to think that 4. Nxe5 would lead to 4 ... Nxe5 5. d4! but that is only for those players who fail to notice 4 ... Bxf2+!. Why would Black allow himself to be forked and go down a pawn when he can equalize materially and gain the superior position? If we play 4. Nxe5 we lose the Knight due to 4 ... Bxf2+ 5. Kxf2 Nxe5 (5 ... Qf6+ is denied by 6. Nf3).

    4. c3 gives us a strong position with the impending d4 push and kingside castle which allows the Knight to move to d2 ready to pounce to c4 and protect e4 after Nf6 is played.
    OK, first of all, I can't find your "previous spoiler", even when I posted clicked "All" and used "Find". Are you sure you posted it? Second of all, edit: found it afterwards. I can't find anyone suggesting the line you are replying to. The closest I found was this post by Raysalis.
    On August 17 2011 06:23 Raysalis wrote:
    4. Nxe5

    + Show Spoiler +


    The move that I normally play against the classical. Black usually play the following 2 moves.
    4. ... Nxe5
    5. d4 Bxd4
    6. Qxd4
    and i like the white position

    or

    4. ... Bxf2
    5. Kxf2 Nxe5
    6. Rf1
    and black can try several tactical lines but i think its mostly good for white (in my opinion :p)
    but he doesn't suggest the line that you say. Instead, he plays + Show Spoiler [continued] +
    6.Rf1, which is a much stronger move than your 6. Re1 from what I can see. It prepares to "castle by hand" with Kg1, after which the half-open f-file seems like a nice tactical asset for White.

    Also, you say something about "Why would Black allow himself to ... go down a pawn when he can [play your line]", but Black's going down a pawn was never on the table: whether he plays your line or not, he doesn't have to lose it if he doesn't want to. The question is one of position, not of material.

  • An argument against 4. Nxe5, suggesting a different line for Black
    On August 17 2011 08:36 jdseemoreglass wrote:

    A look at our various book possibilities:

    + Show Spoiler +
    The move 4. Nxe5 will lead to 4. ... Qg5 5. Ng4 h5 [corrected] 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. d4 Bxg4

    [image loading]

    Although white will be up a pawn, his development is terrible, while blacks is nearly complete. No matter how white responds from here, his pawn structure will be compromised, making the extra pawn hardly a benefit at all. This line also leads to very fast simplification which is simply not as fun as a complex and nuanced correspondence game. I would suggest anyone who favors 4. Nxe5 should look at this position and reconsider their move.
    This is a very interesting line that's worth looking into. Black's suggested 4th move is a tactical possibility that's often surprisingly strong in positions where White advances his Knight without having done much development.

    As regards the position itself, I'm not sure how to assess it at a glance. I'm not sure what the line jd was thinking of in which White wins a pawn but has bad pawn structure. [edit: in his post below, jdseemoreglass takes this back.] One way I could see the position continuing is + Show Spoiler [continued] +
    8. f3 Bxf3 9. gxf3 Qg2 10. Rf1 Bb6 11. Bf4, leading to
    [image loading]
    an interesting position where material is even, although I'd say that it's White with the pawn structure advantage. Edit: on second look, in the line I give I'm not sure how to respond to 10...0-0-0, which unless I'm mistaken would actually give the pawn advantage to Black (between d4, b2, and h2, White can't defend everything). I can't find a good improvement for White in this line, so until further notice, this is now officially the reason that I don't like 4. Nxe5.
    In either case, I'd encourage anyone considering 4. Nxe5 to check out this line. In fact, I encourage everyone considering any of our moves to check out jdseemoreglass's post on page 29: it's a model of a well-thought-out, well-presented contribution that includes sample lines, illustrative diagrams, verbal discussion of the pros and cons of various moves and positions, and finally a vote that is solidly explained. Everyone should post like this.

  • My own opinion of 4. Nxe5
    Although this is an aggressive line, I don't see any problems with it, and several of the continuations posted are quite interesting. Edit: I edited my response to jdseemoreglass. I now think that his line offers a definite advantage to Black. Nonetheless, I lean against this move for one simple reason, which was stated in passing by jdseemore glass: + Show Spoiler [Why I lean against 4. Nxe5] +
    It leads to early simplification: at least one pair of pieces will almost certainly be exchanged. This early in the game, I'd like to leave things as complex as possible, by leaving all the pieces on the board.
    Edit: this reason is still valid, but I now think that 4. Nxe5 is actually worse for us, if I haven't missed something. I won't be voting for it.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-17 20:14:18
August 17 2011 20:13 GMT
#600
On August 18 2011 04:49 qrs wrote:
[*]An argument against 4. Nxe5, suggesting a different line for Black
Show nested quote +
On August 17 2011 08:36 jdseemoreglass wrote:

A look at our various book possibilities:

+ Show Spoiler +
The move 4. Nxe5 will lead to 4. ... Qg5 5. Ng4 h5 [corrected] 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. d4 Bxg4

[image loading]

Although white will be up a pawn, his development is terrible, while blacks is nearly complete. No matter how white responds from here, his pawn structure will be compromised, making the extra pawn hardly a benefit at all. This line also leads to very fast simplification which is simply not as fun as a complex and nuanced correspondence game. I would suggest anyone who favors 4. Nxe5 should look at this position and reconsider their move.
This is a very interesting line that's worth looking into. Black's suggested 4th move is a tactical possibility that's often surprisingly strong in positions where White advances his Knight without having done much development.

As regards the position itself, I'm not sure how to assess it at a glance. I'm not sure what the line jd was thinking of in which White wins a pawn but has bad pawn structure. One way I could see the position continuing is + Show Spoiler [continued] +
8. f3 Bxf3 9. gxf3 Qg2 10. Rf1 Bb6 11. Bf4, leading to
[image loading]
an interesting position where material is even, although I'd say that it's White with the pawn structure advantage.
In either case, I'd encourage anyone considering 4. Nxe5 to check out this line. In fact, I encourage everyone considering any of our moves to check out jdseemoreglass's post on page 29: it's a model of a well-thought-out, well-presented contribution that includes sample lines, illustrative diagrams, verbal discussion of the pros and cons of various moves and positions, and finally a vote that is solidly explained. Everyone should post like this.

[*]My own opinion of 4. Nxe5
Although this is an aggressive line, I don't see any problems with it, and several of the continuations posted are quite interesting. Nonetheless, I lean against this move for one simple reason, which was stated in passing by jdseemore glass: + Show Spoiler [Why I lean against 4. Nxe5] +
It leads to early simplification: at least one pair of pieces will almost certainly be exchanged. This early in the game, I'd like to leave things as complex as possible, by leaving all the pieces on the board.


Thanks for the compliments qrs, and thanks for correcting my move (5. ... h5). I knew when I was writing out all the lines and variations, I would make at least one mistake

After looking at the position further, I think you are right that we cannot hold on to the extra pawn. We get a strong center in exchange for weakened development and a vulnerable king, which is simply not worth it in my opinion. Also, simplification is kind of boring in correspondence chess.

For anyone who didn't read my post on pg. 29, I am bumping it below.



On August 17 2011 08:36 jdseemoreglass wrote:

A look at our various book possibilities:

+ Show Spoiler +
The move 4. Nxe5 will lead to 4. ... Qg5 5. Ng4 h5 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. d4 Bxg4

[image loading]

Although white will be up a pawn, his development is terrible, while blacks is nearly complete. No matter how white responds from here, his pawn structure will be compromised, making the extra pawn hardly a benefit at all. This line also leads to very fast simplification which is simply not as fun as a complex and nuanced correspondence game. I would suggest anyone who favors 4. Nxe5 should look at this position and reconsider their move.


The move 4. Bxc6 will lead to 4. ... dxc6 5. Nxe5 bxf7 6. Kxf7 Qd4+, winning the material back with a clear advantage, since white's king is in a weak position and will have to invest a few moves in protecting it.

[image loading]


The two most solid and standard moves we can make here are 4. c3 and 4. O-O. Each of them have arguments for and against them, but they are both safe and solid choices.

After 4. O-O, black has two primary options:

4. ... Nd4 and 4. ... Nge7.

Let's take a look at the move Nd4 first, which leads to an exchange of knights.

After 4. O-O Nd4 5. Nxd4 Bxd4 6. c3 Bb7 7. d4 c6 we have two options. 8. Ba4 and 8. Bc4.

After 8. Ba4 the book line typically proceeds as follows: 8. ... d6 9. Na3 exd4 10. cxd4 Ne7 11. Bg5 f6 12. Bf4 O-O. At that point the position looks like this:

[image loading]


If we play 8. Bc4 the line follows: 8. ... d6 9. Qb3 Qc7, and the position looks like this:

[image loading]

I doubt that black will choose either of these lines and the early simplification. If black decides against the Knight trade, he will most like play 4. ... Nge7, which can be followed by c3 and a standard game.


If we play 4. c3, before castling, the game can go into a huge number of possibilities and variations, some of them extremely tactical and explosive. Let's take a look at a few of the possibilities which do not include an early castle, to differentiate the possibilities compared with 4. O-O.

4. c3 d5 5. Nxe5 Qg5 6. O-O Qxe5 7. d4 Qe6 8. dxc5 dxe4 9. Bf4

[image loading]


4. c3 f5 5. d4 fxe4 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. Nxe5 Bd6 8. Qh5+ g6 9. Qe2 Qh4 10. h3

[image loading]


4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 Bb6 6. Qe2 exd4 7. e5 O-O 8. cxd4 Re8 9. Be3 Nd5 10. Nc3 Nxc3 11. bxc3

[image loading]

Here white has an advantage in space, but he is a little over-extended, and his pawn structure can be compromised immediately while his king is still in the center.


One of the more complicated variations can follow: 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ne4, which can lead to several different book lines and unclear positions.

[image loading]



After carefully reviewing the various possibilities and positions, I think 4. c3 is the right move here,

+ Show Spoiler +
because it is extremely flexible and can lead to positions that are favorable for white that are excluded by playing castle first. with 4. c3 we retain the option of either safely castling at any time, or immediately taking the center with d4. By keeping our king in the center, we also give black a much larger range of possible aggressive moves, which I think lead to advantages with white if we play correctly. You always want to retain the possibility of your opponent playing incorrectly.

4. c3 prevents black from choosing to transition to the top two positions with Nd4, and is also the more aggressive option here, as we threaten to immediately cramp black's game and take control of the center. Castling first will provide an extra tempo for black to produce either counter-attacking or defensive possibilities.

"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
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