TL Chess Match 4 - Page 29

I don't have that much experience with ruy lopez opening - but c3 really seems to be very standard; if we play something too ou of the ordinary early on, I fear many won't be able to follow very soon

The only difference between c3 and 0-0 is that 0-0 offers safety right now, should we worry he will sac? No, probably not. But, at least we'd be sure he wouldn't with our rook guarding the F pawn. The classical defense is either 4. c3 or 4. 0-0, and after 0-0 5. c3, we get the same result a move later with the safety of castling right now to protect our F pawn AND avoid the inability to castle because if he sacs, that's whats gonna happen. He said he wants an unconventional game, leaving something like that wide open on move 4 is not something we should grant him. I'm not arguing c3 isn't a great move, I'm just not sure it's our best move on 4.

Maybe I'm not giving enough credit to the fact that he could Nd4 and go for some early attack. But from what I see of the classical defense, that's not really scary, we would 5. Nxd4 Bxd4 6.c3.. I think that's a pretty good position and we still get our castle early.

I actually like your reasoning for 4. 0-0 now than later on move 5, and might change my move after some more thought. But assuming he does play unconventionally and sac his bishop on c5 for our f pawn hoping to start some of an attack, I don't think it's very good on his part at this stage of the game. We can follow up easily with moves like Re1, c3, Kg1, d4, etc. and if we play accurately we should be able to defend any sort of early attack he might be planning.

correct response to this build

I'm going to vote for following the main line of the Classical.
The seemingly "safer" 0-0 leaves room for the aggressive 4. ... Nd4 which is the real threat here, not a one-move attack on f2.

Glad I could change a mind! Lol, I'm by no means a great player, it just makes sense at this stage of the game to play that if he's threatening "unconventional" play. You're also very correct, which is maybe why I shouldn't base my whole argument on it, it WOULD be bad for him, especially in the long run, I think. I'm just trying to play conservative and express my thoughts so that we can make the best move possible, just want people to be open, not come in here, pick a move, then never read/check the thread.

Letting him take d4 is not a position I want to be in. I actually don't feel castling is all that safe.

5. Nxd4 Bxd4 6.c3..
I addressed that position, and looked it up in quite a few games. That move won't threaten much, and we shouldn't be worried about it in my opinion.

I'm beginning to think people aren't even reading my posts. He is going to play 5. ...f5 and if you think him taking Nd4 is a problem, check out some of the ways his f5 move play out.

The move 4. Nxe5 will lead to 4. ... Qg5 5. Ng4 h6 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. d4 Bxg4



Although white will be up a pawn, his development is terrible, while blacks is nearly complete. No matter how white responds from here, his pawn structure will be compromised, making the extra pawn hardly a benefit at all. This line also leads to very fast simplification which is simply not as fun as a complex and nuanced correspondence game. I would suggest anyone who favors 4. Nxe5 should look at this position and reconsider their move.


The move 4. Bxc6 will lead to 4. ... dxc6 5. Nxe5 bxf7 6. Kxf7 Qd4+, winning the material back with a clear advantage, since white's king is in a weak position and will have to invest a few moves in protecting it.




The two most solid and standard moves we can make here are 4. c3 and 4. O-O. Each of them have arguments for and against them, but they are both safe and solid choices.

After 4. O-O, black has two primary options:

4. ... Nd4 and 4. ... Nge7.

Let's take a look at the move Nd4 first, which leads to an exchange of knights.

After 4. O-O Nd4 5. Nxd4 Bxd4 6. c3 Bb7 7. d4 c6 we have two options. 8. Ba4 and 8. Bc4.

After 8. Ba4 the book line typically proceeds as follows: 8. ... d6 9. Na3 exd4 10. cxd4 Ne7 11. Bg5 f6 12. Bf4 O-O. At that point the position looks like this:




If we play 8. Bc4 the line follows: 8. ... d6 9. Qb3 Qc7, and the position looks like this:



I doubt that black will choose either of these lines and the early simplification. If black decides against the Knight trade, he will most like play 4. ... Nge7, which can be followed by c3 and a standard game.


If we play 4. c3, before castling, the game can go into a huge number of possibilities and variations, some of them extremely tactical and explosive. Let's take a look at a few of the possibilities which do not include an early castle, to differentiate the possibilities compared with 4. O-O.

4. c3 d5 5. Nxe5 Qg5 6. O-O Qxe5 7. d4 Qe6 8. dxc5 dxe4 9. Bf4




4. c3 f5 5. d4 fxe4 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. Nxe5 Bd6 8. Qh5+ g6 9. Qe2 Qh4 10. h3




4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 Bb6 6. Qe2 exd4 7. e5 O-O 8. cxd4 Re8 9. Be3 Nd5 10. Nc3 Nxc3 11. bxc3



Here white has an advantage in space, but he is a little over-extended, and his pawn structure can be compromised immediately while his king is still in the center.


One of the more complicated variations can follow: 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. e5 Ne4, which can lead to several different book lines and unclear positions.

because it is extremely flexible and can lead to positions that are favorable for white that are excluded by playing castle first. with 4. c3 we retain the option of either safely castling at any time, or immediately taking the center with d4. By keeping our king in the center, we also give black a much larger range of possible aggressive moves, which I think lead to advantages with white if we play correctly. You always want to retain the possibility of your opponent playing incorrectly.

4. c3 prevents black from choosing to transition to the top two positions with Nd4, and is also the more aggressive option here, as we threaten to immediately cramp black's game and take control of the center. Castling first will provide an extra tempo for black to produce either counter-attacking or defensive possibilities.

^ that guy convinced me.

Already loving this guy, gonna be great having someone this willing to go into detail, thanks for that. I only had one question it is has to do with my biggest fear in this position, which is 4...f5.

Your line was 4. c3 f5 5. d4 fxe4 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. Nxe5 Bd6 8. Qh5+ g6 9. Qe2 Qh4 10. h3

But from games and theory I've been looking at, 6. Bxc6 is not the right move? You're clearly well versed, could you explain the reasoning for that one versus 6. Ng5 which sets up for some nice aggression, or Nd2 which threatens that lonely pawn on the e file. I just don't see a reason to sac our well placed bishop after he goes fxe4.

Edit: Thanks for opening my eyes to c3 as move 4 a little more though, I think I'm almost reluctant to play it out of fear, and the fear comes from not knowing how it plays out perfectly. Thanks again.

I actually hope he will play 5.f5 so I want to enable him

3 ... Bc5 - this response has fallen out of fashion and used to be the standard response to Bb5.

If he plays 3 .. Bc5 I'd like to point out that 4. Nxe5 is quite a poor choice compared to 4. c3. It would seem nice to think that 4. Nxe5 would lead to 4 ... Nxe5 5. d4! but that is only for those players who fail to notice 4 ... Bxf2+!. Why would Black allow himself to be forked and go down a pawn when he can equalize materially and gain the superior position? If we play 4. Nxe5 we lose the Knight due to 4 ... Bxf2+ 5. Kxf2 Nxe5 (5 ... Qf6+ is denied by 6. Nf3).

4. c3 gives us a strong position with the impending d4 push and kingside castle which allows the Knight to move to d2 ready to pounce to c4 and protect e4 after Nf6 is played.

Well, the theory says that in the position that concludes after the bishop capture, white has a clear positional advantage. Most importantly, black's e-pawn is weak and isolated, and will become a target. Black's control of the dark squares has also been weakened, both with the loss of the queen knight, and the advance of the king-side pawns, allowing white's dark bishop greater power. On top of it all, white has a powerful centralized knight.

Nfd2 is certainly a playable move, but if you can force a position in which you have an advantage, while avoiding complications, you should generally accept it. That's the theory anyway.