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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 27

Forum Index > General Games
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Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
August 15 2011 06:44 GMT
#521
Okay guys...

Deadline for move 3 is Over

Counting votes, gonna get back to you with updates soon.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
August 15 2011 07:12 GMT
#522
Shootist wrote:
I'm not in the roster, but 3. d4


You are now.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
August 15 2011 07:12 GMT
#523
Banchan wrote:
I move my elephant left-down


Grashopper to top left while squirrel runs to home base. Yarr!
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 07:48:03
August 15 2011 07:30 GMT
#524
Original Post Updated!


First of all I want to celebrate the highest participation rate so far - 89 people have voted which is over 80% of the size of the roster. Not only did the counter of the two most popupar votes exceed the number of silent people, but even the third got pretty close. This is more than I could have vished for at the start. I hope we can keep up the interest and if it keeps being a succes we can make it a regular event for TL!

I removed a few people who have not voted since the start of the game, neither did they get back to me. (This obviously means a roster update.) I left people in who I know - or have a legitimate reason to suppose - are wanting for the game to get deeper in. I did this mostly to keep the statistical data as clean as possible, it doesn't mean that they are blocked from the game at all. If you are one of them and just late, wish to join later, or simply forgot to participate so far you are more than welcome (among anyone else) to join (back) anytime.

My reply this time will take a little longer for practical reasons. (Edit: This means I will post it during Tuesday and not Monday (CET and EST times).) Even if I replied sooner you would have to wait on the next move because of my next flight - I chose the times I felt fitted our circumstances the best. In the meantime; stay tuned for a few announcements for future (streaming and forum) event(s)!

Another point of possible interest. I know the supposedly 3D graph isn't too fancy at the moment - that's the best I could clinch out of Excel. Once I'm back to my 'other home' I will probably mess around with some mathematical programs to give you a nicer 3D graph, or at least make the edges smooth on the diagram.

As always, feel free to message me with ideas and suggestion.

Cheers,
-me

Edit: Haha, my last fifty posts were all in this one thread. Goes to show how much I post elsewhere in general.
TehForce
Profile Joined July 2010
1072 Posts
August 15 2011 15:56 GMT
#525
can't wait for your move, you have all kind of options now
NesTea <3
Dr. Von Derful
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States363 Posts
August 15 2011 17:09 GMT
#526
On August 15 2011 12:27 Mumu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2011 09:04 Babyfactory wrote:
Alright, since it seems the most theory intensive opening is going to win... let's predict and discuss responses to his coming move since we have the time.

+ Show Spoiler +
It is best we make use of the time we have as it seems the proper information and discussions aren't being made available soon enough to inform people who aren't quite sure. It is also at this stage that the Ruy Lopez really deserves to be treated as the theory shitshow it is ... yes, right from the get go.

He can respond in a few ways that we must consider:

3 ... a6 - this is by far the most standard move and allows us to enter two very different styles of play with 4. Bxc6 and 4. Ba4.

4. Bxc6 would be a poor choice for a correspondence game as exchanging pieces this early serves to weaken our attack not build one and because of this it is also why this variation has the highest draw rate of the Ruy Lopez. 4. Ba4 allows us to retreat our bishop and continue our pressure and allows us to keep the position closed to continue to keep Black in a tough spot.

If he plays 3 .. a6 I'd like to see line continue as following: 3 ... a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Qe2

I'd prefer to keep this a closed game and remove the ability to play the Marshall Attack from Ng5, even though the Marshall Attack can be countered should we play the main line and he gambits the d-pawn.

3 ... f5 - by far the most interesting variation that can be played this early.

We can still expect this to be played after 3 ... Bc5 4. c3 f5!? so it can't hurt to prepare for it. The question that it presents is do we accept or decline? The object of this opening is to start an aggressive kingside attack, so leaving the position closed and waiting until it is ideal for us to capture on f5 would be best. And I'd argue that it would be a very dubious move to accept immediately due to 4. exf5 Bxf5! . I'd push to see 4. Nc3 over 4. d3 to protect the pawn on e4 and to develop our queenside knight. It's not that pushing d3 to protect e4 is bad but rather that should Ng5 choose to play fxe4 we now have an open d file and an awkwardly placed e4 pawn as we don't have the d-pawn to support it in a e5 push and to defend would require us to pin a Knight / Bishop / Major piece to it. If Ng5 wants to give us an interesting game 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 might prove to be interesting.

I'd expect this to play out as follows: 3 ... f5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. exf5 e4 6. Qe2 or 3 ... f5 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5

3 ... Nf6 - is a very drawish response that Ng5 can play, so I don't expect it in the least.

However, it does deserve our attention. It would be worth considering playing 4. Nc3 and transposing in to a Four Knights game to eliminate theory than to fall victim to playing against a very solid black defense. As this is a Correspondence Game the defense isn't a formidable as it is over the board, but it is still a hassle to deal with. I'd push for 4. Nc3, but we might wish to play in to it as it could still serve to be an interesting positional game. If we are to play in to 3 ... Nf6 then we should follow with 4. 0-0 as our pawn on e4 can be captured but we can return the favor with Re1 to capture on e5 the next move (4. 0-0 Nxe5 5. Re1 Nf6 6. Nxe5).

3 ... Bc5 - this response has fallen out of fashion and used to be the standard response to Bb5.

If he plays 3 .. Bc5 I'd like to point out that 4. Nxe5 is quite a poor choice compared to 4. c3. It would seem nice to think that 4. Nxe5 would lead to 4 ... Nxe5 5. d4! but that is only for those players who fail to notice 4 ... Bxf2+!. Why would Black allow himself to be forked and go down a pawn when he can equalize materially and gain the superior position? If we play 4. Nxe5 we lose the Knight due to 4 ... Bxf2+ 5. Kxf2 Nxe5 (5 ... Qf6+ is denied by 6. Nf3).

4. c3 gives us a strong position with the impending d4 push and kingside castle which allows the Knight to move to d2 ready to pounce to c4 and protect e4 after Nf6 is played.

These are the most common moves we should expect, but don't rule out seeing something even more unconventional. For as long as chess as been around, we've really only scratched the surface of the theory and combinations.


edit: woo, I'm a marine now... no longer an SCV.




+ Show Spoiler +
Some interesting predictions. =) very well thought out. I personally believe he will respond with a6 The pin on the knight is strong and he will want to relieve that while strengthening his left side. I like the fact that, should he choose this response, we can maintain the pin with 4. Ba4. While 4. Bxc6 messes up his left side by potentially stacking the his c pawns, I agree that it is not worth trading our minor pieces this early in lieu of maintaining our pressure.
However, I am prepared for one of your other hypotheses. I really like your evaluation of 3...f5


I am curious to what Black has in store for us. He has stated that he wants to play a non traditional game.



+ Show Spoiler +
The Ruy Lopez still has a lot of room for interesting / dubious / surprise moves so maybe he'll surprise us in the middle game rather than in the first few moves. It's just at this point since we've declared our intentions with Bb5 we need to begin formulating a plan around it and to dictate how the game should play. He might be able to surprise us with something, but we're still in control.

I'm just anxious to see his next move... whenever I play correspondence chess I usually just set the time limit to a day and the games usually finish before the week is over. It drives me up a wall to see a game go this slow, but it's time we can use to discuss, predict, and teach similar to how you'd effectively use your time OTB during your opponents turn.
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
August 15 2011 18:31 GMT
#527
I can see Nd4 as a possibility.
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
thehitman
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1105 Posts
August 15 2011 18:51 GMT
#528
I think he is going to play standard and have the a7 peon move to a6
Dr. Von Derful
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States363 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 21:18:05
August 15 2011 20:27 GMT
#529
On August 16 2011 03:31 Cloud9157 wrote:
I can see Nd4 as a possibility.


I was going to originally include this in my first post of "predictions" for us to discuss but I ruled it out as being nothing more then a dubious surprise move and given that we have three days to get passed to the surprise factor, it really lacks bite.

3. ... Nd4 can be met with either retreating the Bishop to c4 or to exchange Knights and allow Black to have a pawn on d4.

After 4. Nxd4 exd4 5. 0-0 black's only saving grace is the advanced d-pawn cramping our queenside but he doesn't have the means to hold on to it long enough to gain a long lasting advantage to compensate for the position and lack of development.

edit:

It depends on Black's move after 5. 0-0 but 6. c3 is white's intention, but 6. d3 is an okay substitute should Black play 5 ... Bc5.
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
August 16 2011 05:34 GMT
#530
so if he plays a6, which in my opinion is stronger than d6 (although d6 is very playable), are we gonna take it or run? I vote for keeping the bishop on the board It's a schmexy piece later on.
Write your own song!
Dr. Von Derful
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States363 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 15:48:59
August 16 2011 15:21 GMT
#531
On August 16 2011 14:34 mastergriggy wrote:
so if he plays a6, which in my opinion is stronger than d6 (although d6 is very playable), are we gonna take it or run? I vote for keeping the bishop on the board It's a schmexy piece later on.


I'm not sure why 3. ... d6 appeared on your radar for potential moves. It only further restricts black's movement by trapping in the King's Bishop and after 4. d4! it only leads to further complications in Black's position.

If he's going to ever play d6 it will be after he plays 3 ... a6 to which it'd follow as 4. Ba4 d6 or 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 d6 6. Nc3. The ability to play b5 is enough to free up his Knight on c6 which will provide Black with more mobility and it prevents / delays the d4 push.

3 ... a6 does appear to be Black's move as it is the most common response with the theory to back it, but 3 ... Nf6 and 3 ... Bc5 as I mentioned before still hold very strong ways of dealing with the Ruy Lopez.

If he does play 3 ... a6 we'll want to + Show Spoiler +
keep the bishop with 4. Ba4. It doesn't make sense to simplify the position this early against someone of Ng5's caliber. We can still take deprive him of an open game and the Marshall Attack with 6. Qe2 instead of 6. Re1, so I wouldn't consider those variations a threat; however, we can also play in to them as there are many traps and tactics for white in both, but it's up to Black to choose whether or not to gambit his d-pawn if we play the Main Line.

And, no offense, but "schmexy piece later on" is a really poor argument. It'd be nice to see some people supply a little more analysis and thought behind their reasons.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
August 16 2011 17:57 GMT
#532
While I understand that a lot of your stuff doesn't NEED to be spoilered, Babyfact, maybe you should spoiler it just in case?
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 18:56:53
August 16 2011 18:55 GMT
#533
Okay guys. I've posted my move and the deadlines. Ball's in your court now.

Round 4 Starts Here

Edit: You have a little bit more extra - 9 hours this time. See you again from back in the US!
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
August 16 2011 18:57 GMT
#534
Also guys, due to my flight I will not be able to send out reminders. I might be able to send one two days from now, but no promises.

Please keep your eyes open for the thread, it's the time to make or choose plans.
keyStorm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada316 Posts
August 16 2011 19:04 GMT
#535
what is a good online chess site?
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
August 16 2011 19:19 GMT
#536
4. c3

+ Show Spoiler +
There are two straight forward options here, either 4. 0-0 or 4. c3. I think c3 will be the better play here. Black played 3. ... Bc5, an unorthodox move imo. I'm guessing he is trying to throw us off, by dominating the center here, then attack the king side. I think it is better to not castle yet, but prepare to reinforce the center with 4. c3, then some times later d4 when appropriated.
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
Malli
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany138 Posts
August 16 2011 19:25 GMT
#537
4. c3

+ Show Spoiler +
Yeah I think we should fortify d4 to create a strong center. We should prepare to take it later with a pawn move to d4. Castling can be done later..
gg no re
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25551 Posts
August 16 2011 19:31 GMT
#538
4. O-O


+ Show Spoiler [._.] +

So... I mean I'm pretty sure the response here is to castle to guard the pawn right?

Okay I'm not meaning to hate here, but why is there a group of people (maybe not always the SAME people) who want to play c3 on every move? SERIOUSLY. It's like Nader, always getting votes and taking away from the real election. It's an acceptable move for once, finally...

But on topic, the book response to classical defense is to castle. It guards the f pawn with something besides the King and we need to castle anyways so it's not a waste of a move.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
ParanoiaHoT
Profile Joined August 2010
United States103 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 20:06:25
August 16 2011 19:38 GMT
#539
On August 17 2011 04:31 Blazinghand wrote:
4. O-O


+ Show Spoiler [._.] +

So... I mean I'm pretty sure the response here is to castle to guard the pawn right?

Okay I'm not meaning to hate here, but why is there a group of people (maybe not always the SAME people) who want to play c3 on every move? SERIOUSLY. It's like Nader, always getting votes and taking away from the real election. It's an acceptable move for once, finally...

But on topic, the book response to classical defense is to castle. It guards the f pawn with something besides the King and we need to castle anyways so it's not a waste of a move.


+ Show Spoiler +

I don't want to throw my vote out there just yet without checking some things but I do not believe c3 is the correct move. Castle may be correct but I also want to look at Qe2. After looking up the classical defense, apparently c3 is the most played move, and perhaps best? I think I'd still prefer castling due to the fact that he may be confident enough to Bxf2. I'll be doing a lot of looking at the classical since I have no experience and I'm using this chess match as a learning experience but according to the #s (probably don't apply to us AT ALL)

White wins 42.8%
Black wins 25.2%
Draws 32.0%

Guess I was super wrong on c3 move, but I'm still worried he's willing to sac and I'm not sure that would be great for us. I think 0-0 is the proper move here.
ParanoiaHoT
Profile Joined August 2010
United States103 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-16 19:40:51
August 16 2011 19:40 GMT
#540
Fail, quoted wrong person. This was for the guy asking about a chess site.

Just use Yahoo chess, pretty okay.
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