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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 26

Forum Index > General Games
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RAGEMOAR The Pope
Profile Joined February 2011
United States216 Posts
August 14 2011 14:34 GMT
#501
B c4
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
August 14 2011 14:42 GMT
#502
Update

Bb5 - 30 - 38,46%
Bc4 - 26 - 33,33%
d4 - 15 - 19,23%
Nc3 - 4 - 5,13%
c3 - 2 - 2,56%
b4 - 1 - 1,28%



If it's going to be this tight I will do a complete recount at the end of the turn.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
August 14 2011 17:17 GMT
#503
I think it is a mistake for people to argue for their move using tournament statistics (ie. the Ruy Lopez wins 45%). I'm not sure where we are getting these statistics from, but they are probably largely irrelevant, and have more to do with the players themselves and the ever-changing theory than the actual strength of the opening.

It is impossible to quantify the strength of a position so few moves in, especially using a limited sample of tournament games played by individuals of different strength. There are plenty of justifications for the openings, but I don't think statistics are one of them.

None of us are grandmasters, and so none of us will play like the grandmasters do beyond the opening moves. You wouldn't switch to Zerg just because Nestea wins a few GSL's, would you?
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
August 14 2011 18:05 GMT
#504
3. Bb5
+ Show Spoiler +
I'd prefer Nc3 to be able to trade and not have to force his left side pawns. I do not want to give up the middle. It will be very interesting to see the arguments come on the bishop trade variation vs. people who are wanting to force his left side pawns.
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
GnarKill
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada68 Posts
August 14 2011 18:12 GMT
#505
d4
"i've got this ability to say things that never really happen" - Moletrap... truer words never been spoken
Drolla
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom389 Posts
August 14 2011 18:21 GMT
#506
3. d4
nikj
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada669 Posts
August 14 2011 20:15 GMT
#507
3. Bb5
Y'know sometimes people ask me y'know like "What's your religion and stuff?" And I'm like "y' know it's like RTS." Uh, and they're like, "What's that?" And I'm like, "Y'know it's kinda like, kinda like Buddism."
lezin
Profile Joined April 2011
Finland11 Posts
August 14 2011 20:24 GMT
#508
3. Bb5

+ Show Spoiler +
Ruy Lopez gogo
Nothing, and everything, is possimpible
WarChimp
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia943 Posts
August 14 2011 22:03 GMT
#509
3. D4.
+ Show Spoiler +
Let's go for the Sicilian Defense ^^
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
August 14 2011 22:26 GMT
#510
3. Bc4
+ Show Spoiler +
I am not really playing this game, but going right into fried liver gives advantages to white when the entire fried liver sequence is played out
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
17069 Posts
August 14 2011 22:32 GMT
#511
On August 15 2011 07:26 amazingxkcd wrote:
3. Bc4
+ Show Spoiler +
I am not really playing this game, but going right into fried liver gives advantages to white when the entire fried liver sequence is played out

What?
Moderator
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-14 23:04:36
August 14 2011 23:00 GMT
#512
On August 15 2011 07:32 Empyrean wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2011 07:26 amazingxkcd wrote:
3. Bc4
+ Show Spoiler +
I am not really playing this game, but going right into fried liver gives advantages to white when the entire fried liver sequence is played out

What?


lol, I had to google it to find out what he was talking about...

From wikipedia:
+ Show Spoiler +

The Fried Liver Attack, also called the Fegatello Attack (named for an Italian idiom meaning "dead as a piece of liver"), is a chess opening. This colourfully-named opening is a variation of the Two Knights Defence in which White sacrifices a knight for a superficially impressive attack on the enemy king. The Fried Liver has been known for many centuries, the first known game score being from a game played in Rome in 1610.[1] The Fried Liver Attack is classified in the Encyclopaedia of Chess Openings (ECO) with the code C57.

After usual opening moves of the Two Knights (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6), White goes on the offensive, the game continuing 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5. This last move is risky. White can now get an advantage with 6.d4 (the Lolli Attack).

However, The Fried Liver Attack involves a far more spectacular knight sacrifice on f7, with the defining moves 6.Nxf7 Kxf7

White has a strong attack, but it has not been proven to be decisive. Because defence is harder to play than attack in this variation when given short time limits, the Fried Liver is dangerous for Black in over-the-board play, if a short time limit is had. It is also especially effective against weaker players who may not be able to analyse the correct defences in detail. Sometimes Black invites White to play the Fried Liver Attack in correspondence chess as the relaxed time limit affords Black a better opportunity to refute the White sacrifice, or in OBC with longer time limits or none.


Wikipedia states the Fried Liver Attack has not proven decisive, and that it is typically played with short time controls, and not in correspondence chess, so he's probably wrong claiming there is an advantage for white.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
lSasquatchl
Profile Joined February 2011
United States309 Posts
August 14 2011 23:10 GMT
#513
3.Bb5
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
August 14 2011 23:38 GMT
#514
Going to bed now. Gonna check on after I wake up which will probably be a few hours after the deadline.

It will be sharp once I'm back in the US, but I can't always wake with the sun till then.
Dr. Von Derful
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States363 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-15 00:08:23
August 15 2011 00:04 GMT
#515
Alright, since it seems the most theory intensive opening is going to win... let's predict and discuss responses to his coming move since we have the time.

+ Show Spoiler +
It is best we make use of the time we have as it seems the proper information and discussions aren't being made available soon enough to inform people who aren't quite sure. It is also at this stage that the Ruy Lopez really deserves to be treated as the theory shitshow it is ... yes, right from the get go.

He can respond in a few ways that we must consider:

3 ... a6 - this is by far the most standard move and allows us to enter two very different styles of play with 4. Bxc6 and 4. Ba4.

4. Bxc6 would be a poor choice for a correspondence game as exchanging pieces this early serves to weaken our attack not build one and because of this it is also why this variation has the highest draw rate of the Ruy Lopez. 4. Ba4 allows us to retreat our bishop and continue our pressure and allows us to keep the position closed to continue to keep Black in a tough spot.

If he plays 3 .. a6 I'd like to see line continue as following: 3 ... a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Qe2

I'd prefer to keep this a closed game and remove the ability to play the Marshall Attack from Ng5, even though the Marshall Attack can be countered should we play the main line and he gambits the d-pawn.

3 ... f5 - by far the most interesting variation that can be played this early.

We can still expect this to be played after 3 ... Bc5 4. c3 f5!? so it can't hurt to prepare for it. The question that it presents is do we accept or decline? The object of this opening is to start an aggressive kingside attack, so leaving the position closed and waiting until it is ideal for us to capture on f5 would be best. And I'd argue that it would be a very dubious move to accept immediately due to 4. exf5 Bxf5! . I'd push to see 4. Nc3 over 4. d3 to protect the pawn on e4 and to develop our queenside knight. It's not that pushing d3 to protect e4 is bad but rather that should Ng5 choose to play fxe4 we now have an open d file and an awkwardly placed e4 pawn as we don't have the d-pawn to support it in a e5 push and to defend would require us to pin a Knight / Bishop / Major piece to it. If Ng5 wants to give us an interesting game 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 might prove to be interesting.

I'd expect this to play out as follows: 3 ... f5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. exf5 e4 6. Qe2 or 3 ... f5 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5

3 ... Nf6 - is a very drawish response that Ng5 can play, so I don't expect it in the least.

However, it does deserve our attention. It would be worth considering playing 4. Nc3 and transposing in to a Four Knights game to eliminate theory than to fall victim to playing against a very solid black defense. As this is a Correspondence Game the defense isn't a formidable as it is over the board, but it is still a hassle to deal with. I'd push for 4. Nc3, but we might wish to play in to it as it could still serve to be an interesting positional game. If we are to play in to 3 ... Nf6 then we should follow with 4. 0-0 as our pawn on e4 can be captured but we can return the favor with Re1 to capture on e5 the next move (4. 0-0 Nxe5 5. Re1 Nf6 6. Nxe5).

3 ... Bc5 - this response has fallen out of fashion and used to be the standard response to Bb5.

If he plays 3 .. Bc5 I'd like to point out that 4. Nxe5 is quite a poor choice compared to 4. c3. It would seem nice to think that 4. Nxe5 would lead to 4 ... Nxe5 5. d4! but that is only for those players who fail to notice 4 ... Bxf2+!. Why would Black allow himself to be forked and go down a pawn when he can equalize materially and gain the superior position? If we play 4. Nxe5 we lose the Knight due to 4 ... Bxf2+ 5. Kxf2 Nxe5 (5 ... Qf6+ is denied by 6. Nf3).

4. c3 gives us a strong position with the impending d4 push and kingside castle which allows the Knight to move to d2 ready to pounce to c4 and protect e4 after Nf6 is played.

These are the most common moves we should expect, but don't rule out seeing something even more unconventional. For as long as chess as been around, we've really only scratched the surface of the theory and combinations.


edit: woo, I'm a marine now... no longer an SCV.
lolsixtynine
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States600 Posts
August 15 2011 01:29 GMT
#516
3. Bc4
+ Show Spoiler +
Provides a more interesting game than Bb5 in my opinion, and it's really between those two at this point.
Mumu
Profile Joined October 2010
Korea (South)56 Posts
August 15 2011 03:27 GMT
#517
On August 15 2011 09:04 Babyfactory wrote:
Alright, since it seems the most theory intensive opening is going to win... let's predict and discuss responses to his coming move since we have the time.

+ Show Spoiler +
It is best we make use of the time we have as it seems the proper information and discussions aren't being made available soon enough to inform people who aren't quite sure. It is also at this stage that the Ruy Lopez really deserves to be treated as the theory shitshow it is ... yes, right from the get go.

He can respond in a few ways that we must consider:

3 ... a6 - this is by far the most standard move and allows us to enter two very different styles of play with 4. Bxc6 and 4. Ba4.

4. Bxc6 would be a poor choice for a correspondence game as exchanging pieces this early serves to weaken our attack not build one and because of this it is also why this variation has the highest draw rate of the Ruy Lopez. 4. Ba4 allows us to retreat our bishop and continue our pressure and allows us to keep the position closed to continue to keep Black in a tough spot.

If he plays 3 .. a6 I'd like to see line continue as following: 3 ... a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Qe2

I'd prefer to keep this a closed game and remove the ability to play the Marshall Attack from Ng5, even though the Marshall Attack can be countered should we play the main line and he gambits the d-pawn.

3 ... f5 - by far the most interesting variation that can be played this early.

We can still expect this to be played after 3 ... Bc5 4. c3 f5!? so it can't hurt to prepare for it. The question that it presents is do we accept or decline? The object of this opening is to start an aggressive kingside attack, so leaving the position closed and waiting until it is ideal for us to capture on f5 would be best. And I'd argue that it would be a very dubious move to accept immediately due to 4. exf5 Bxf5! . I'd push to see 4. Nc3 over 4. d3 to protect the pawn on e4 and to develop our queenside knight. It's not that pushing d3 to protect e4 is bad but rather that should Ng5 choose to play fxe4 we now have an open d file and an awkwardly placed e4 pawn as we don't have the d-pawn to support it in a e5 push and to defend would require us to pin a Knight / Bishop / Major piece to it. If Ng5 wants to give us an interesting game 4. Nc3 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5 might prove to be interesting.

I'd expect this to play out as follows: 3 ... f5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. exf5 e4 6. Qe2 or 3 ... f5 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nxe4 d5

3 ... Nf6 - is a very drawish response that Ng5 can play, so I don't expect it in the least.

However, it does deserve our attention. It would be worth considering playing 4. Nc3 and transposing in to a Four Knights game to eliminate theory than to fall victim to playing against a very solid black defense. As this is a Correspondence Game the defense isn't a formidable as it is over the board, but it is still a hassle to deal with. I'd push for 4. Nc3, but we might wish to play in to it as it could still serve to be an interesting positional game. If we are to play in to 3 ... Nf6 then we should follow with 4. 0-0 as our pawn on e4 can be captured but we can return the favor with Re1 to capture on e5 the next move (4. 0-0 Nxe5 5. Re1 Nf6 6. Nxe5).

3 ... Bc5 - this response has fallen out of fashion and used to be the standard response to Bb5.

If he plays 3 .. Bc5 I'd like to point out that 4. Nxe5 is quite a poor choice compared to 4. c3. It would seem nice to think that 4. Nxe5 would lead to 4 ... Nxe5 5. d4! but that is only for those players who fail to notice 4 ... Bxf2+!. Why would Black allow himself to be forked and go down a pawn when he can equalize materially and gain the superior position? If we play 4. Nxe5 we lose the Knight due to 4 ... Bxf2+ 5. Kxf2 Nxe5 (5 ... Qf6+ is denied by 6. Nf3).

4. c3 gives us a strong position with the impending d4 push and kingside castle which allows the Knight to move to d2 ready to pounce to c4 and protect e4 after Nf6 is played.

These are the most common moves we should expect, but don't rule out seeing something even more unconventional. For as long as chess as been around, we've really only scratched the surface of the theory and combinations.


edit: woo, I'm a marine now... no longer an SCV.




+ Show Spoiler +
Some interesting predictions. =) very well thought out. I personally believe he will respond with a6 The pin on the knight is strong and he will want to relieve that while strengthening his left side. I like the fact that, should he choose this response, we can maintain the pin with 4. Ba4. While 4. Bxc6 messes up his left side by potentially stacking the his c pawns, I agree that it is not worth trading our minor pieces this early in lieu of maintaining our pressure.
However, I am prepared for one of your other hypotheses. I really like your evaluation of 3...f5


I am curious to what Black has in store for us. He has stated that he wants to play a non traditional game.
Slakkoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Sweden1119 Posts
August 15 2011 03:47 GMT
#518
3.Bb5
Shootist
Profile Joined May 2011
Singapore405 Posts
August 15 2011 04:05 GMT
#519
I'm not in the roster, but 3. d4
Banchan
Profile Joined May 2011
United States179 Posts
August 15 2011 04:08 GMT
#520
I move my elephant left-down
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