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On August 18 2011 03:22 wuBu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2011 01:02 mastergriggy wrote:4. 0-0+ Show Spoiler +Get the king out of harm's way and develop etc. Strong positional move that isn't over committing. C3 still throws away a move. 4. Nc3 is a lot stronger now though, but it loses the tempo which is what the primary problem with c3 is. It looks like he's gonna castle kingside, so there is no immediate threat
Another advantage of castling is if he fails to respond, then 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. Nxe5 then if 6. ...Qd4 7. Nf3, black can't recapture the pawn because of the skewer. Black has to instead play a move like 5. ...d6 or Nge7, then we can commit to a center push with 6. c3. + Show Spoiler +c3 does not throw away a move/loses the tempo like you say. The main lines usually occur 4. c3 or 4. 0-0. Not saying you're wrong, there's nothing wrong with 4. 0-0 since it is just as strong as 4. c3. Like I stated before, White's follow-up normally in this opening is an eventual d4 push. So 0-0 now and then a c3 d4 push or c3, castle on move 5, then d4 are both equally good paths to take. But stating that c3 "throws away a move" is not correct.
+ Show Spoiler +It's not considered standard though, but you are correct there isn't enough of a distinction for it to be better or worse than 0-0. After doing some research c3 is more of an old school style *see ruy lopez classical defense* of playing that has been seen less to 0-0.
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My problem with castling is he can just Nd4 and threaten both our knight and bishop with trades...
c3 prevents this
I'm going to change my vote, actually
4. c3
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4. Nxe5
+ Show Spoiler +black responds: 4 . Nxe5
then 5. d4 gives a fork to bring material even, establishes two central pawns, and opens the diagonal for our other bishop
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On August 18 2011 06:19 Occam3 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Nxe5
black responds: 4 . Nxe5
then 5. d4 gives a fork to bring material even, establishes two central pawns, and opens the diagonal for our other bishop
+ Show Spoiler +I dont like the white position after 5... c6 6. Bc2 Bd6 7.dxe5 Bxe5 Black will get the second mid-pawn anyway then. ![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/thumb/chess1g70n.png)
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The deal with c3: an overview:
c3, in games like this one, has several distinct strengths and weaknesses. Often it's something that we want to play, but the question is when to play it. Here's a summary of the key points of c3 as I see them.
- Why c3 is a strong move in general: + Show Spoiler +
In brief: it sets up d4. d4 is a strong move in general, when White can safely play it, because it opens up lines for him and strengthens his control of the center. Additionally, c3 opens up a useful avenue for the Queen.
It also limits the scope of Black's bishop along the b7-g1 diagonal, although this can be a double-edged sword, because while Black's bishop is restricted by the d4 pawn, it also exerts constant pressure on it, forcing us to be sure it is defended at all times. - Why c3 is a strong move in this opening more than another: + Show Spoiler +
In brief, because Black has played Nf6. It all comes down to pawns.
Pawns are like siege tanks: strong static defense, but limited in mobility. Also, best attacked by other siege tanks. Thus, our goals in dealing with them are similar: get them to a good position when we have the chance, and then dig in. (This is why people sometimes compare TvT to chess.) In this case, the chance that is offered us is ...Nf6, which blocks in Black's c-pawn and prevents it from challenging our d-pawn. Therefore, whereas in other openings, a quick d4 is sometimes of limited strength, as Black can break down the position by challenging it with c5, in this position, d4 becomes much stronger. - Drawbacks of an early c3 in general: + Show Spoiler +
It's a move without an immediate threat to Black, which gives him short-term freedom and flexibility. Furthermore, it blocks our Knight from his best spot on c3. This has two ramifications:
1) If we somehow aren't able to play d4 quickly, then that pawn on c3 can become a hindrance to us, cramping our position.
2) The inability to play Nc3 (or Nd2 for that matter) opens up several tactical possibilities for Black, all of which center around attacking the temporarily undefended-and-not-easily-defended e4 pawn. Examples of moves like this are ...Nf6, ...d5, and ...f5. - Why these drawbacks are not as problematic in our position: + Show Spoiler +
In brief, it all comes down to tempo.
Many of Black's tactical responses to c3 centered around his ability to immediately attack e4 and our inability to immediately defend it. d4 gained us no time as it was essentially a move without a threat. In this case, Black's 3...Bc5 means that we can play d4 with gain of tempo, as it attacks the Bishop, which Black must address.
The move that this gains us changes the whole picture, leading to a number of possibilities that weren't there before. - Misconception: 4. c3 is essentially equivalent to 4. 0-0: + Show Spoiler +
A couple of people have suggested this, but it's not entirely true. It's true that both are moves that we will very likely end up playing, and it's also true that they can easily transpose, but they don't have to transpose, and it's not entirely within our control to make them.
The point is that, although they may not be as strong as in other positions, Black's tactical possibilities against e4 have not been negated. If Black attacks e4, we still need to deal with that before castling, and depending on what happens next, the game might proceed in different ways. See jdseemoreglass's post above for a few lines where c3 does not result in immediate castling--and sometimes not in castling in the near future either (although he does not make it entirely clear in which of these lines the decision not to castle is White's).
Thus, you should not consider 4. 0-0 and 4. c3 as interchangeable.
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4. c3
+ Show Spoiler +Rather develop and protect our position than castle in this situation.
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I vote for 4. 0-0
+ Show Spoiler [reasoning] +It's the safest move: bringing our King to safety and not wasting any time in development. It's also the surest move: sooner or later, we know we want to castle--or at any rate, we would like to develop our Rook and make our King safe, and castling is the fastest way to do both.
Although it doesn't put pressure on Black, it doesn't concede him tempo either, as we're playing a move that we (eventually) want to play, and it doesn't give him the chance to put any pressure on us either. The only move he can play that forces us into something (leaving out h6, which is just a nudge) is 4...Nd4, forcing an exchange if Black wants but really, that's nothing to be scared of (and if we were, we probably shouldn't have gone into the Spanish game at all, as Black has that possibility on move 3 as well). That might increase Black's drawing chances, by virtue of simplification, but I don't think that it gives Black any edge over us.
I don't think Ng5 is looking for a draw, but even if he were, you can't base your decisions on the desire to avoid a draw, or you concede something to your opponent in the game of chicken.
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I am going to go with 4. c3.
+ Show Spoiler +Afterwards we can castle. Like what someone said above, the c3 shuts down that pesky knight threatening
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I love how controversial the 4th move of a game like this is :D
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Hong Kong9159 Posts
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4.c3
+ Show Spoiler [~_~] +4.c3 sets us up to play d4 and also prevents our opponent from playing Nd4, which would probably lead to undesired simplification.
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c3.
+ Show Spoiler +Castling allows Nd4 and following something like 5.Nxd4 Bxd4 6.c3 Bb6 7.d4 black doesn't have much trouble.
Nxe5 also gives black a comfortable position.
c3 poses the most problems for black in my opinion.
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Athos wrote:
I love how controversial the 4th move of a game like this is :D
That's the reason I've always said it's more about community building than anything else at this point. 
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/J1L5j.png)
4. c3 - 29 - 60,42%
4. O-O - 14 - 29,17%
4. Nxe5 - 2 - 4,17%
4. Bxc6 - 1 - 2,08%
4. b4 - 1 - 2,08%
48 out of 112 votes - 42,85%![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ISAmz.png)
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c3
Reasoning c3 > O-O:
+ Show Spoiler +
I prefer c3 over O-O because with c3 we set our d-pawn up to control the center of the board. O-O could also be played in this position but it feels more passive, more gearing towards a Draw.
In general if we would play a game of blitzchess i would play the O-O because it is easier to play in fast thinking games. But now we have so much time to think about the best moves that i prefer the more complex, more aggressive move.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=chess1g70n.png)
