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On July 11 2011 23:37 Novalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 23:35 snpnx wrote:On July 11 2011 23:29 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:06 JAN0L wrote:
The main problem with watching any game of this type is the amount of knowledge you need to have to be able to understand whats going on. you basically need to know skills of all the heroes that are in the game, probably also items. There is no way the casters will be able to provide that knowledge in fast and accessible way to people unfamiliar with the game. I played DotA for 3 years and only now i got to know that Lich's ulti ministuns or that you can remove Rexar's stun by casting omniknight's repel(but not prevent it). I agree with this, and it's the main reason LoL won't be able to touch SC2 in terms of broad audience appeal. I love SC2 just like most on these forums, but LoL had more viewers on Dreamhack I think, so you can't say it doesn't have the appeal for a broader audience that SC2 has. What percentage of those LoL viewers don't play LoL? SC2 is just so easy to look at and figure out what's going on. LoL only appeals to people who play the game.
I don't play LoL. Used to, don't really play much anymore. Kind of the same with SC2. Don't play that either.
Though, I watch a fuck ton of vods, streams and tournaments.
How many people that watch sports don't play?
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On July 12 2011 02:15 Aurdon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 23:37 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:35 snpnx wrote:On July 11 2011 23:29 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:06 JAN0L wrote:
The main problem with watching any game of this type is the amount of knowledge you need to have to be able to understand whats going on. you basically need to know skills of all the heroes that are in the game, probably also items. There is no way the casters will be able to provide that knowledge in fast and accessible way to people unfamiliar with the game. I played DotA for 3 years and only now i got to know that Lich's ulti ministuns or that you can remove Rexar's stun by casting omniknight's repel(but not prevent it). I agree with this, and it's the main reason LoL won't be able to touch SC2 in terms of broad audience appeal. I love SC2 just like most on these forums, but LoL had more viewers on Dreamhack I think, so you can't say it doesn't have the appeal for a broader audience that SC2 has. What percentage of those LoL viewers don't play LoL? SC2 is just so easy to look at and figure out what's going on. LoL only appeals to people who play the game. I don't play LoL. Used to, don't really play much anymore. Kind of the same with SC2. Don't play that either. Though, I watch a fuck ton of vods, streams and tournaments. How many people that watch sports don't play?
It differs a lot from person to person, but there's no denying that there is a pretty big audience right now, so it's no surprise that MLG is making this move, I just think there are better current competitive options which also serve as better spectator sports.
Even when I was playing LoL very actively I couldn't enjoy it as a spectator, it was boring as hell particularly for the first 10 minutes, also, I just don't see the players doing much that blows me away like I sometimes do in SC2 or DotA or HoN, it's just really pretty stale. I could watch a game between decent 1800 Elo players and then watch a top level competitive match and I honestly wouldn't be able to cite much of a difference in LoL.
Even after I stopped playing DotA and HoN, I still go watch competitive play from time to time because I find it far more exciting, far more impressive and far more competitive. So as a personal note, I'm not super pleased by this decision, however, we'll have to see how it plays out, it's definitely a decent sink business-wise, but in terms of competition and spectatorship for me, it's in the same vein as Black Ops, huge player base, but ultimately a weak competitive eSport.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2011 02:28 Mordiford wrote:
It differs a lot from person to person, but there's no denying that there is a pretty big audience right now, so it's no surprise that MLG is making this move, I just think there are better current competitive options which also serve as better spectator sports.
Even when I was playing SC2 very actively I couldn't enjoy it as a spectator, it was boring as hell particularly for the first 10 minutes, also, I just don't see the players doing much that blows me away like I sometimes do in BW, it's just really pretty stale. I could watch a game between decent Masters players and then watch a top level competitive match and I honestly wouldn't be able to cite much of a difference in SC2.
Even after I stopped playing BW, I still go watch competitive play from time to time because I find it far more exciting, far more impressive and far more competitive. So as a personal note, I'm not super pleased by this decision, however, we'll have to see how it plays out, it's definitely a decent sink business-wise, but in terms of competition and spectatorship for me, it's in the same vein as Black Ops, huge player base, but ultimately a weak competitive eSport.
Fixed.
Jokes aside, the above actually is a totally reasonable assessment of many BW fans' views on SC2. And while I can understand your point of view with regard to HoN/DotA, you're being totally unsympathetic to an almost identical point of view. You have to recognize that it's pretty hypocritical to deride LoL but be totally accepting of SC2 because the arguments against each compared to their predecessors is pretty much the same. How valid you perceive the arguments to be is pretty subjective--the only reason you feel that SC2 is "good enough" and LoL isn't is because you're more emotionally/intellectually invested in HoN/DotA/SC2, and less so in BW/LoL, and that's coloring your view on what shifts toward a more casual experience are ok and what shifts aren't.
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On July 12 2011 02:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 02:28 Mordiford wrote:
It differs a lot from person to person, but there's no denying that there is a pretty big audience right now, so it's no surprise that MLG is making this move, I just think there are better current competitive options which also serve as better spectator sports.
Even when I was playing SC2 very actively I couldn't enjoy it as a spectator, it was boring as hell particularly for the first 10 minutes, also, I just don't see the players doing much that blows me away like I sometimes do in BW, it's just really pretty stale. I could watch a game between decent Masters players and then watch a top level competitive match and I honestly wouldn't be able to cite much of a difference in SC2.
Even after I stopped playing BW, I still go watch competitive play from time to time because I find it far more exciting, far more impressive and far more competitive. So as a personal note, I'm not super pleased by this decision, however, we'll have to see how it plays out, it's definitely a decent sink business-wise, but in terms of competition and spectatorship for me, it's in the same vein as Black Ops, huge player base, but ultimately a weak competitive eSport. Fixed. Jokes aside, the above actually is a totally reasonable assessment of many BW fans' views on SC2. And while I can understand your point of view with regard to HoN/DotA, you're being totally unsympathetic to an almost identical point of view. You have to recognize that it's pretty hypocritical to deride LoL but be totally accepting of SC2 because the arguments against each compared to their predecessors is pretty much the same. How valid you perceive the arguments to be is pretty subjective--the only reason you feel that SC2 is "good enough" and LoL isn't is because you're more emotionally/intellectually invested in HoN/DotA/SC2, and less so in BW/LoL, and that's coloring your view on what shifts toward a more casual experience are ok and what shifts aren't.
I think what he was really referring to is the skill cap....I haven't played HoN and only a little DotA, so i can't compare them to LoL; while SC2 is easier to play than BW, it doesn't make it easy, at least when compared with LoL.
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On July 12 2011 02:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 02:28 Mordiford wrote:
It differs a lot from person to person, but there's no denying that there is a pretty big audience right now, so it's no surprise that MLG is making this move, I just think there are better current competitive options which also serve as better spectator sports.
Even when I was playing SC2 very actively I couldn't enjoy it as a spectator, it was boring as hell particularly for the first 10 minutes, also, I just don't see the players doing much that blows me away like I sometimes do in BW, it's just really pretty stale. I could watch a game between decent Masters players and then watch a top level competitive match and I honestly wouldn't be able to cite much of a difference in SC2.
Even after I stopped playing BW, I still go watch competitive play from time to time because I find it far more exciting, far more impressive and far more competitive. So as a personal note, I'm not super pleased by this decision, however, we'll have to see how it plays out, it's definitely a decent sink business-wise, but in terms of competition and spectatorship for me, it's in the same vein as Black Ops, huge player base, but ultimately a weak competitive eSport. Fixed. Jokes aside, the above actually is a totally reasonable assessment of many BW fans' views on SC2. And while I can understand your point of view with regard to HoN/DotA, you're being totally unsympathetic to an almost identical point of view. You have to recognize that it's pretty hypocritical to deride LoL but be totally accepting of SC2 because the arguments against each compared to their predecessors is pretty much the same. How valid you perceive the arguments to be is pretty subjective--the only reason you feel that SC2 is "good enough" and LoL isn't is because you're more emotionally/intellectually invested in HoN/DotA/SC2, and less so in BW/LoL, and that's coloring your view on what shifts toward a more casual experience are ok and what shifts aren't.
Can we put this post somewhere for everyone to read? Holy shit. You pretty much said what I've been thinking since people started complaining about X game, and saying the X's predecessor Y is better because you can see the skill difference. Like TheYango said, the only reason you feel like SC2 is good enough and not LoL is because you're more emotionally invested. LoL is actually a really fun game to watch IMO, and is easy to see when someone is doing really well or really bad, but maybe that's just me
Anyway ,I remember tweeting to MLG Sundance a week or two ago asking if they were going to pu LoL in the circuit, and BAM! It happened. You're welcome, everyone 
P.S. My explanation of X and Y games can be reversed for any example. It doesn't necessarily have to be a predecessor that's better, and could be a successor. The point is that people only think that any said game is better because they've been following it for so long.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2011 02:52 Demonhunter04 wrote:
I think what he was really referring to is the skill cap....I haven't played HoN and only a little DotA, so i can't compare them to LoL; and while SC2 is easier to play than BW, it doesn't make it easy, at least when compared with LoL.
"Easy" and "hard" are 100% subjective, and I'm pretty sure nobody has experienced all 4 games at a high enough level to make an accurate assessment on such a ridiculous statement as "the amount by which SC2 is easier than BW at a competitive level is significantly less than the amount by which LoL is easier than DotA at a competitive level" (the bolded part being relevant because I don't care that you think solo ladder is easy--it has very little relevance to the tournament spectator's experience). And if you can't reasonably assess the difference in degrees, you can't use that as an argument.
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On July 12 2011 02:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 02:52 Demonhunter04 wrote:
I think what he was really referring to is the skill cap....I haven't played HoN and only a little DotA, so i can't compare them to LoL; and while SC2 is easier to play than BW, it doesn't make it easy, at least when compared with LoL. "Easy" and "hard" are 100% subjective, and I'm pretty sure nobody has experienced all 4 games at a high enough level to make an accurate assessment on such a ridiculous statement as "the amount by which SC2 is easier than BW at a competitive level is significantly less than the amount by which LoL is easier than DotA at a competitive level" (the bolded part being relevant because I don't care that you think solo ladder is easy; and it has very little relevance to the tournament spectator's experience). And if you can't reasonably assess the difference in degrees, you can't use that as an argument.
I wasn't directly comparing the difficulty of LoL to DotA, I was comparing the difficulty of SC2 or BW to LoL. As you said, perhaps it really is just that difficult at the top level, but I kinda doubt it.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 12 2011 03:01 Demonhunter04 wrote:
I wasn't directly comparing the difficulty of LoL to DotA, I was comparing the difficulty of SC2 or BW to LoL. As you said, perhaps it really is just that difficult at the top level, but I kinda doubt it.
Ok, in that case you have even less of an argument because the games don't really overlap in relevant skillsets at all. I don't see how you can argue the relative difficulty of teamplay and coordination to SC2/BW's strategic and mechanical elements. You're 100% guessing at that point.
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I am very happy the MLG made this move. Because LoL is a free game I'm sure it will appeal to gamers to at least try it out! Therefore getting more interest for the next MLG. The games at Dreamhack were quite entertaining, sure to someone who doesn't know whats going on it looks confusing. But isn't it like that in all sports and games? They slowly catch on and then get into it I think they have a really good line up for this MLG. Sc2 <3 The best individual player skill game out there plus great team work games like LoL, CoD, and Halo Reach! LoL has great potential in pro gaming and I only wish it the best. Sc2 is still my favourite though <3
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On July 12 2011 03:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 03:01 Demonhunter04 wrote:
I wasn't directly comparing the difficulty of LoL to DotA, I was comparing the difficulty of SC2 or BW to LoL. As you said, perhaps it really is just that difficult at the top level, but I kinda doubt it. Ok, in that case you have even less of an argument because the games barely overlap in relevant skill-sets.
I'm not so sure about that. A lot of the game seems to be knowing what your opponents are doing (where they are, what items theyre building), countering it, microing your champion, and (here's the part that SC2/BW don't have so much) working with your teammates to disable and take out enemy champions.
On another note, one thing about LoL that I don't like is that any aggressive play early in the game is punished harshly, and that the best strategy early on mainly involves camping near your tower as much as possible.
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On July 12 2011 03:02 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 03:01 Demonhunter04 wrote:
I wasn't directly comparing the difficulty of LoL to DotA, I was comparing the difficulty of SC2 or BW to LoL. As you said, perhaps it really is just that difficult at the top level, but I kinda doubt it. Ok, in that case you have even less of an argument because the games don't really overlap in relevant skillsets at all. I don't see how you can argue the relative difficulty of teamplay and coordination to SC2/BW's strategic and mechanical elements. You're 100% guessing at that point.
Under that logic, WoW Arenas might be considered to be on the same difficulty level of BW as well.
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United States47024 Posts
Effectively I'm seeing the argument:
"SC2 is easier than BW and LoL is easier than DotA, but SC2 is ok because it's still hard, while LoL isn't ok because it's not hard anymore."
Except there are plenty of BW players that will purport that SC2 is not "still hard", and you pretty much can't prove that in any remotely objective manner. You're making some subjective standard about what's "hard enough to be a competitive game", and what's "too easy to be a competitive game", and deliberately placing the bar such that SC2 fits in the "hard enough" category when there's pretty much no reasoning you can provide as to why your standard of SC2 being hard enough is correct.
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On July 12 2011 02:28 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 02:15 Aurdon wrote:On July 11 2011 23:37 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:35 snpnx wrote:On July 11 2011 23:29 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:06 JAN0L wrote:
The main problem with watching any game of this type is the amount of knowledge you need to have to be able to understand whats going on. you basically need to know skills of all the heroes that are in the game, probably also items. There is no way the casters will be able to provide that knowledge in fast and accessible way to people unfamiliar with the game. I played DotA for 3 years and only now i got to know that Lich's ulti ministuns or that you can remove Rexar's stun by casting omniknight's repel(but not prevent it). I agree with this, and it's the main reason LoL won't be able to touch SC2 in terms of broad audience appeal. I love SC2 just like most on these forums, but LoL had more viewers on Dreamhack I think, so you can't say it doesn't have the appeal for a broader audience that SC2 has. What percentage of those LoL viewers don't play LoL? SC2 is just so easy to look at and figure out what's going on. LoL only appeals to people who play the game. I don't play LoL. Used to, don't really play much anymore. Kind of the same with SC2. Don't play that either. Though, I watch a fuck ton of vods, streams and tournaments. How many people that watch sports don't play? Even after I stopped playing DotA and HoN, I still go watch competitive play from time to time because I find it far more exciting, far more impressive and far more competitive. So as a personal note, I'm not super pleased by this decision, however, we'll have to see how it plays out, it's definitely a decent sink business-wise, but in terms of competition and spectatorship for me, it's in the same vein as Black Ops, huge player base, but ultimately a weak competitive eSport.
This last bit is incorrect, from an objective viewpoint. I don't know about Black Ops, but LoL has proven itself to be a strong competitive eSport, as it regularly draws tens of thousands of viewers for its major tournaments. LoL at Dreamhack peaked at nearly 200,000 viewers.
I'm really glad LoL was chosen, it's the only other game I closely follow, and after its massive popularity has been shown, along with MLG Columbus being so awesome, I've been hoping they'd pick it up. It's a much better pick than its alternatives - no offense to HoN / DotA fans, but even if they're better / more enjoyable games to play, they're way harder to follow for newcomers, and have a much smaller audience (that would tune in to MLG, anyway). If you dislike LoL, there's always hope for DotA 2, I guess.
That's another thing - people have been bashing on LoL as an eSport, as if their viewers are fake, or are all just players of the game (while SC2's somehow aren't)... that simply isn't the case. LoL's simple colors, huge health bars, and its overall simplicity make it an easy game for newcomers to follow and enjoy. The relatively passive early game gives the announcers tons of time to explain each unknown characters abilities before the action ramps up. Besides, you don't need to know every single ability of every character to enjoy what's going on, just as you don't for say, a fighting game like Street Fighter.
LoL will be a great fit, you'll all see... between their massive SC2 improvements and this, I can't see MLG Raleigh not being one of the biggest eSport events yet. It's just a shame that the prize pools aren't very big, relative to how epic the event is.
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On July 12 2011 03:11 TheYango wrote:
Effectively I'm seeing the argument:
"SC2 is easier than BW and LoL is easier than DotA, but SC2 is ok because it's still hard, while LoL isn't ok because it's not hard anymore."
Except there are plenty of BW players that will purport that SC2 is not "still hard", and you pretty much can't prove that in any remotely objective manner. You're making some subjective standard about what's "hard enough to be a competitive game", and what's "too easy to be a competitive game", and deliberately placing the bar such that SC2 fits in the "hard enough" category when there's pretty much no reasoning you can provide as to why your standard of SC2 being hard enough is correct.
All right, then. My entire argument was predicated on the idea that LoL was too simple of a game to create tough competition, and without being able to prove that, as I obviously cannot, this discussion can go no further.
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People seems to be having a misconception here. LoL is easier than DotA but not anymore than SC2 is easier than BW. They are both more simplified but the players who practice more will win against those who don't put their all into it. What makes LoL really hard to watch is how the game is played out. It's incredibly passive and turns into a farm fest for the majority of the game. They only have confrontations every 6/7 minute for dragon and baron. The team that has one of their player get picked off gives those up so everyone plays super passive and attempt to farm more than their opponents. LoL is really boring but it's not easy at all.
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United States47024 Posts
Personally, I can see two logically defensible points of view in this argument:
"The best competitive games to be run are those that are the most demanding of skill and create the most lively gameplay. As such, we should run BW and DotA."
"The best competitive games to be run are those that draw the most spectators, and with the greatest popularity. As such, we should run SC2 and LoL."
Each is reasonable based on different priorities in selecting competitive games. Personally, I would favor the first point of view, but I accept the fact that an organization like MLG has certain obligations (financial and otherwise) that makes the advantages of the second viewpoint more appealing.
Something in the middle (i.e. SC2 is good enough but LoL isn't) is inevitably going to be based upon some arbitrary standard that someone made up on the spot to play favorites towards the game(s) they're more invested in, and not based on any sort of sensible reasoning.
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On July 11 2011 22:25 Am0n3r wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 00:08 antelope591 wrote:On July 11 2011 00:02 canikizu wrote:On July 10 2011 23:42 antelope591 wrote:On July 10 2011 23:38 Angra wrote:On July 10 2011 23:37 WinteRR wrote:
I still find it sad that LoL actually gets taken seriously when there's HoN around.. The unfortunate fact is that it doesn't actually matter which game is more competitive when it comes to a game becoming competitive and popular. All that matters is how well it's marketed. :/ If LoL cost 20$ it would have like 5k players max. But Riot's pretty smart with the huge playerbase they've prolly made more off skins alone than s2's made off selling hon. Yeah S2 needs to give HoN for free. That's the only way to get more people interest in HoN. HoN's player base has been stale for a long time now. At this point its prolly too late for HoN...its too good a game to be free to play but not good enough to be worth 20$. Maybe cut the price to 5-10$....but with LoL having so much of the player base I don't think it will make a difference. You go on HoN and there's like 10k players compared to like a million for LoL...S2 just got outplayed by Riot on this one. Best thing to do is wait for Dota2. Its constant 30k+ And finding a match takes much shorter time in HoN than in LoL
Obviously 10k was an exagerration but 30k is still nothing compared to LoL numbers...and HoN is going nowhere but down while LoL is likely increasing in popularity due to this exposure.
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If I was an investor in E-sports I'd go for the popular one. And if it's popular and you be hating that it makes you the minority, and therefore the first to be ignored. Just sayin'.
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On July 12 2011 03:12 cordlc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 02:28 Mordiford wrote:On July 12 2011 02:15 Aurdon wrote:On July 11 2011 23:37 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:35 snpnx wrote:On July 11 2011 23:29 Novalisk wrote:On July 11 2011 23:06 JAN0L wrote:
The main problem with watching any game of this type is the amount of knowledge you need to have to be able to understand whats going on. you basically need to know skills of all the heroes that are in the game, probably also items. There is no way the casters will be able to provide that knowledge in fast and accessible way to people unfamiliar with the game. I played DotA for 3 years and only now i got to know that Lich's ulti ministuns or that you can remove Rexar's stun by casting omniknight's repel(but not prevent it). I agree with this, and it's the main reason LoL won't be able to touch SC2 in terms of broad audience appeal. I love SC2 just like most on these forums, but LoL had more viewers on Dreamhack I think, so you can't say it doesn't have the appeal for a broader audience that SC2 has. What percentage of those LoL viewers don't play LoL? SC2 is just so easy to look at and figure out what's going on. LoL only appeals to people who play the game. I don't play LoL. Used to, don't really play much anymore. Kind of the same with SC2. Don't play that either. Though, I watch a fuck ton of vods, streams and tournaments. How many people that watch sports don't play? Even after I stopped playing DotA and HoN, I still go watch competitive play from time to time because I find it far more exciting, far more impressive and far more competitive. So as a personal note, I'm not super pleased by this decision, however, we'll have to see how it plays out, it's definitely a decent sink business-wise, but in terms of competition and spectatorship for me, it's in the same vein as Black Ops, huge player base, but ultimately a weak competitive eSport. This last bit is incorrect, from an objective viewpoint. I don't know about Black Ops, but LoL has proven itself to be a strong competitive eSport, as it regularly draws tens of thousands of viewers for its major tournaments. LoL at Dreamhack peaked at nearly 200,000 viewers. I'm really glad LoL was chosen, it's the only other game I closely follow, and after its massive popularity has been shown, along with MLG Columbus being so awesome, I've been hoping they'd pick it up. It's a much better pick than its alternatives - no offense to HoN / DotA fans, but even if they're better / more enjoyable games to play, they're way harder to follow for newcomers, and have a much smaller audience (that would tune in to MLG, anyway). If you dislike LoL, there's always hope for DotA 2, I guess. That's another thing - people have been bashing on LoL as an eSport, as if their viewers are fake, or are all just players of the game (while SC2's somehow aren't)... that simply isn't the case. LoL's simple colors, huge health bars, and its overall simplicity make it an easy game for newcomers to follow and enjoy. The relatively passive early game gives the announcers tons of time to explain each unknown characters abilities before the action ramps up. Besides, you don't need to know every single ability of every character to enjoy what's going on, just as you don't for say, a fighting game like Street Fighter. LoL will be a great fit, you'll all see... between their massive SC2 improvements and this, I can't see MLG Raleigh not being one of the biggest eSport events yet. It's just a shame that the prize pools aren't very big, relative to how epic the event is.
I said it was a weak competitive eSport and cited my personal experience with it as a spectator, I never mentioned viewer numbers as anything but a positive so I don't see how bolding that last sentence and then citing the Dreamhack viewer numbers changes anything, I'd still consider it a weak competitive eSport in the same vein as Black Ops with the knowledge of how many viewers they had at Dreamhack.
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people who say there arent clutch plays in competitive LoL did not see shushei in dreamhack. or funny shit like doublelift zoning ashe out of her own fountain.
they are just rarer and you have to know the game to notice some of them.
one problem I see with competitive LoL is that the team comps are very uniform. I would like it if there were more role-playing champs that someone can specialize in that allows them to shine.
also more skills that initiate well at higher levels where everyone has good positioning(like ashe arrow). that way you can actually get fights started.
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EPT
