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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:04 Shrub wrote: Wait, are you trying to say that puff and sting is hard when you're using the weapon designed to make it even easier than it already is with the vanilla flamethrower? What do you mean? | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On July 05 2011 08:58 Torte de Lini wrote:Rolling bombs are the offensive, sticky bombs are the defensive. If you're lobbing one (sticky) bomb (offensively) at a time to a pyro, you're not really going to win. This is what I mean by offensive, if you lop them one at a time and exploding them mid-air at a pyro that's terrible and bad and completely tries to substitute the point of rolling bombs. You throw them under their feet, after you land the first one they can't effectively fight you because you have control over their movement. It's not hard to do, if your aim sucks really bad I guess it's not viable but that's a problem with your mechanics. At close range you use pipes because of the detonation delay on stickies. At every other range you use stickies because you can. It has nothing to do with defense or offense. Sticky bombs can be used with an offensive intent, but their nature is defensive. Meaning you can shoot stickies at someone instead of preemptively at a certain location and that would be the offensive intent, but the defensive nature of the stickies is that they can stick on walls or floors and repulse upward or back the opponent (which you can follow-up easily with any of your more offensive tools) a.k.a AOE damage. You pop people up in the air when using them offensively as well. Here you go. I'll agree I'm wrong when I understand your point of view. For now I see mine as still plausible and equally or possibly correct without the need to cite my experience competitively or publicly or to bash other players. well, I'm not really bashing you, it's just that you have no idea what you're talking about and I don't really see any reason to pretend you do lol | ||
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Shrub
49 Posts
Puff and sting was the easiest damn thing to do when the pyro update first started. I made playing pyro far too easy and one dimensional. The fact that they added a weapon purely designed to make such an easy thing even easier is just stupid. The degreaser is an unnecessary weapon that only takes the small amount of skill away from puff and sting. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:10 UniversalSnip wrote: You throw them under their feet, after you land the first one they can't effectively fight you because you have control over their movement. It's not hard to do, if your aim sucks really bad I guess it's not viable but that's a problem with your mechanics. At close range you use pipes because of the detonation delay on stickies. At every other range you use stickies because you can. It has nothing to do with defense or offense. You pop people up in the air when using them offensively as well. well, I'm not really bashing you, it's just that you have no idea what you're talking about and I don't really see any reason to pretend you do lol No, I think I do, but you do make sense as well. It is a question of defense and offense as well though (at long-rage, you can use stickies, but we both know there's a delay, which renders it rather pointless offensively against Pyros, defensively, perhaps especially to start preemptively laying at the first CP, a.k.a defensively to restrict movement or paths for the other team. this is an example). I don't even see how Pyros aren't the direct counter to demos, which is what this was essentially about? All other classes have to rely on bullets to destroy sticky bombs if they land close to your feet (Something not possible). Pyros can disperse them and avoid the first one landing at your feet. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:17 Torte de Lini wrote: No, I think I do, but you do make sense as well. It is a question of defense and offense as well though (at long-rage, you can use stickies, but we both know there's a delay, which renders it rather pointless offensively against Pyros, At long range, they're not fighting. At mid range, if a demo can't shut down a pyro trying to approach him his mechanics are poor or his positioning is bad, there is just no way around this. If stickies are bad vs pyros in your experience it's because the demomen you play with/against have horrible mechanics. I'm not gonna try to beat this into your head anymore, pyro only wins vs demo, given some skill, if the pyro starts out close, and even then it's only an even matchup. | ||
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prOxi.Beater
Denmark626 Posts
Torte, you don't use rollers to combat pyros. They will simply airblast them away and keep on going so what you want to do as a demoman is to spam stickies at the pyro. Put down a sticky or two between you and the pyro and start spamming stickies as fast as you can. Reflecting air-burst stickies without taking damage is extremely difficult and once there's some stickies between you and your target there's pretty much nothing you can do about it except trying to push them closer to the demoman, which takes a lot of time. Pipes are very dangerous to use vs pyros so either use thm at medium range where you have a chance to dodge the reflect or close enough that he has to pre-fire his airblast to have a chance of reacting in time. The sticky launcher is the best weapon in the game. It was designed to be a defensive weapon, but due to its short priming-time it works just as well offensively and is indeed a weapon that can deal with everything in the game, perhaps short of close-range aerial threats Targe demos are pretty much perfectly countered by a pyro though. Airblast can neutralize pipes, targe and melee, and if it ever comes to a melee fight your axe does 195 damage and his does 46 or something laughable like that. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I say the Pyro is a considerable counter to the Demo because the demoman cannot easily kill it and the Pyro can easily negate the uses of the demo (to a certain extent like all classes). I'm seeing classes as taking each other out and the difficulty or ease to get away or survive against. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:27 Torte de Lini wrote: Oh, did I suggest Demos to use rolling bombs on Pyros? I don't think I did but I'll have to go back and check. Everything the demoman has can be reflected and if they go charge, it's just a simple left MB, Right MB to a wall and Axtinguish (which you mentioned). I say the Pyro is a considerable counter to the Demo because the demoman cannot easily kill it and the Pyro can easily negate the uses of the demo (to a certain extent like all classes). I'm seeing classes as taking each other out and the difficulty or ease to get away or survive against. Rofl, Demos getting cornered by a Pyro are what we call BAD. Torte, it's literally one of those it looks good on paper, but horrible in practice kind of things. Also, by your logic, every class is counter to another, which makes this entire discussion a giant waste of time. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
There's nothing really more to say to you when you won't be civilized. I've never made antagonizing or remarks about you personally or your views, but you're quick to do so several times. Also, by your logic, every class is counter to another, which makes this entire discussion a giant waste of time. No, but to explain would to give you a respect you stopped granting me. Just continue with your claim and move on please since apparently you don't want to engage with this discussion at all. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On July 05 2011 09:37 Torte de Lini wrote: Where did I say they get cornered by a Pyro? There's nothing really more to say to you when you won't be civilized. I've never made antagonizing or remarks about you personally or your views, but you're quick to do so several times. No, but to explain would to give you a respect you stopped granting me. Just continue with your claim and move on please since apparently you don't want to engage with this discussion at all. Notice when I said a Demo being cornered, I meant figuratively not literally. Look, I'll just come out and say what's on everyone's mind: You made a claim, got called out for it, now you are trying weasel your way out of it. Notice there hasn't been single person to support ANY of your original claims. Don't even try to pin this on anyone else when all you have done in the past few posts has been anything but a discussion. The discussion effectively ended when Universal posted the rebuttal. Now, notice the common theme among everyone who's been critical of your original points is that your understanding of the game is at a low level, therefore making any of your points made to defend your claims a complete wash. You cemented the notion just as much when you claimed Stickies were primarily defensive in nature...then attempted to justify the notion by saying an unlock-able item replaces the Sticky Launcher. Also notice that nobody is supporting your claims. Surely if you were right in any regards, people would say something. So do everyone a favor and quietly stop spewing non-sense. Edit: You are also not reading people's close enough. There are problems in the situations you are describing and you simply aren't aware of them. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Again, There's nothing really more to say to you when you won't be civilized. I've never made antagonizing or remarks about you personally or your views, but you're quick to do so several times. Your best move is to just move on and change subjects and stop trying to vilify me. Step back, relax and stop going personal. | ||
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ploy
United States416 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
This honestly ties back to this interaction: On July 05 2011 09:23 UniversalSnip wrote: If stickies are bad vs pyros in your experience it's because the demomen you play with/against have horrible mechanics. I'm not gonna try to beat this into your head anymore, pyro only wins vs demo, given some skill, if the pyro starts out close, and even then it's only an even matchup. Which you promptly respond with this: On July 05 2011 09:27 Torte de Lini wrote: Oh, did I suggest Demos to use rolling bombs on Pyros? I don't think I did but I'll have to go back and check. Everything the demoman has can be reflected and if they go charge, it's just a simple left MB, Right MB to a wall and Axtinguish (which you mentioned). I say the Pyro is a considerable counter to the Demo because the demoman cannot easily kill it and the Pyro can easily negate the uses of the demo (to a certain extent like all classes). I'm seeing classes as taking each other out and the difficulty or ease to get away or survive against. Both points have been discussed to the death. Yet, you want to hang on to your misconceptions for whatever reason, because you are attempting to play this out in your head. Like it doesn't get more direct than what Universal posted, yet you want to hang on to what you *think*, which has already been proven to unreliable. To make it clear for you, the Airblast isn't a solve-all, it's not even a significant advantage, for the Pyro in the Pyro vs. Demo match-up. Edit: Actually, you know what, just to humor you, how do you play a Demo? | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
At long-range, the demo can't touch the pyro, at medium-range is what we're talking about and at short-range, it's said that the pyro wins if it gets close. Where's the weaseling? How the airblast isn't a significant advantage is still something not comprehensible for me. Close-ranged Demos can nail you and beat you with the Launcher, you do next to no damage to them outside of the Axestinguisher. From you which is parallel to what I was saying. Left click, right-click, axtinguish. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On July 05 2011 10:45 ploy wrote: There's a reason you will never see a pyro in competitive play. They are terrible in all practical situations. when i played there were a few specific tricks you could run that involved a pyro sneaking around a back route and diving the medic at a specific timing at the start of a round. It was a suicide though, if you lived you might as well just class switch and eat the death timer to be a scout for the next fight | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On July 05 2011 10:57 Torte de Lini wrote: No, I still hold on to the claim of that Pyros counter Demos, where you see otherwise is a misinterpretation on your part. It was said that if demos get the first sticky off the pyro, then the pyro is pretty much dead, but that is sound to almost every class but the scout (who can double-jump in mid-air, but even then, an anticipatory demo will easy shoot where he's going to land or towards the scouts exits). At long-range, the demo can't touch the pyro, at medium-range is what we're talking about and at short-range, it's said that the pyro wins if it gets close. Where's the weaseling? How the airblast isn't a significant advantage is still something not comprehensible for me. Okay, fair enough, demos can land 2 stickies in the time it takes you airblast once, the airblast can NOT keep up with the sticky launcher's rate of fire. If you want to have airblast you need the flamethrower out, then you have to hope to god you react to their stickies effectively. It's also not hard for the Demo to pop you up, even in the worst case scenario, the Demo controls where you are moving, if the Demo is not, then the Demo is bad or is in a bad situation. It's hard to describe in words, but very easy to see in videos. Just watch some and you'll see how a Demo really limits the movement of every class except Spies and Scouts. At close range, it's a crapshoot, he can trade with you. Airblast isn't effective at preventing splash damage at this range. You can die just as easily as him. | ||
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
On July 05 2011 10:45 ploy wrote: There's a reason you will never see a pyro in competitive play. They are terrible in all practical situations. We run a Pyro quite regularly when defending last, especially on Badlands and with disadvantages in ubercharge. They are great at not letting ubered people in. Also, you guys gotta realize that saying class X counters Y is like comparing SC unit matchups. For example Marines counter Mutas. Sure, they do good against them when both are attack moved, but depending on the micro, the mutas can win that. Brood War Mutalisks can at least :D Scouts generally have the advantage over demomen, but 2 nicely aimed pipes and the demoman wins. Pyro is indeed pretty hard against demo. When the demo uses pipes, its easy, when he is good with stickies, it can get really hard. Although it is pretty easy for a pyro to back out of that fight. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
On July 05 2011 11:20 Judicator wrote: You mean when the Scout makes it stupidly obvious where he's going to land and uses up his options too quickly, the Demo wins, otherwise you are just guessing Going to land? It can be quite easy to hit a double jumping scout. Plus, after scout wasted the double jump, the first pipe hitting can bounce him up, which makes the second pipe an easy hit. Or the pipe can hit his head and the scout slams into the ground, dying from fall damage It also depends highly on the terrain. The wider the area and the more obstacles in it, the better the scout is off. If the scout can get close, the demoman is dead. 1 Meatshot+self damage from one pipe can kill a demoman, although that is not likely. The second scattergun shot will kill the demo though. | ||
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