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On June 30 2011 04:09 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 01:41 zer0das wrote:
Demoman/medic alone is never optimal. It is good to have 2-3 demomen and 2 medics, but anything beyond that isn't especially helpful. Pure Demo/Medic is the strongest composition in the game (barring some weird map that's perfectly flat with no obstacles), simply because demo can output more spam than any other class in the game, for a longer period of time. Ammo is seldom a problem as long as you get a kill for every sixteen stickies or eight pipe bombs or both, which really isn't that difficult to do. And unlike soldiers, Demomen have an explosive weapon that can act like a proximity rocket half a second into flight, which makes them far more efficient against fast classes. Unless said fast classes get within the dead zone of the Demo. In which case more Demos are still better, for covering each other's dead zones. Pipes deal more damage than rockets at almost all ranges and have no damage falloff. The Grenade Launcher also fires faster and throws faster projectiles.; a Demo who knows how to pipe is twice as dangerous as an equivalent soldier. I've never seen anyone complain of spies in a Demo/Medic team, simply because spies tend to vaporize to the spam on accident. Snipers tend to die hard to sticky bombs jumps and pipe spam (and, besides the obvious, have extreme difficulties capturing points), though they are probably the best counter in high-level play. More importantly, Demos scale better than any other class as the number of players playing Demomen goes up. Probably because of some variant of Lancaster's Laws. There's a reason why Demo is the only other class in comp play that's limited to one, besides the Medic. And, most importantly, the single best counter to a uber is not a Pyro, but your own uber. Medics are almost always more valuable than Pyros. Plus, Pyros can't heal Demomen or convert afterburn into free uber.
The demo is not the end all answer to everything. His weapons are powerful but they come with a downside. The lack of a hitscan weapon means that the demo has no true reliable damage output when compared to a shotgun. You can always move away from bombs but you can't dodge a bullet. Then you also have to factor in how for most people, pipes are far harder to aim than rockets and that sticky bombs have an arm time before they can be detonated.
How you think demos counter snipers I don't understand. The demo isn't a god that can lay down fire everywhere. The sniper will beat the demo unless the demo is in an extremely favorable position. There is also the fact of scouts usually eating demos alive in a 1v1 if they are equal in skill. The demo is an incredibly powerful class when used right, but he will never be the end all answer.
Pyros can counter ubers if they have a brain and still use the old flamethrower.
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On June 29 2011 22:38 JiPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 21:45 Greatness wrote:On June 29 2011 21:41 Keitzer wrote:
i heard it's full of kiddies now... confirm/deny. There always was. There is even more of them now.  I am seeing snipers using SMG as their main weapon, or quickscoping. All of my hate.
Quick scoping was always the way good snipers played. Two fast 150 headshots is far better for damage output and your own safety than charging up to 450 once.
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In my experience, soldiers are more durable, and the instant a crit rocket is fired, it is going to hit something. There is a "windup time" between when the demoman fires the crit, and when it is detonated. It's a lot easier to blow up a demoman/medic pair than a soldier/medic pair, especially since demomen are almost always moving forward when firing (I suppose a soldier is usually doing this too, but there's less advantage to it). Completely neutralizes the threat.
Neither average or skilled is representative. In reality, there's a gradient of player skills, and most people are best at one or two classes. I'm guessing the best class of 70% of the playerbase is not demoman (if not more). How useful is the average engineer vs the average demoman? I'd say the engineer compares pretty well, because you really don't have to know much about the class other than where to setup shop. Ditto for medic- it takes a special someone to be completely useless as medic. Point being, its pretty improbable the average skill level a class of pure demoman is as high as you're making it sound. And I kind of doubt the average demoman knows how to effectively guard an area, as easy as that should be. Spamming pipes, I can buy that. Maps that reward that are pretty dumb though (dustbowl 3 is probably among the worst as far as this goes). I have to switch to demo from heavy or medic fairly often because the demos on my team don't know how to guard a cart worth beans (which you would expect to be a mind numbingly easy task, but apparently not).
At any rate, I guess it's a difference in opinion. Maybe we should play some games together and see if either's opinion is swayed. 
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Factoring in crits for any form of damage output is stupid. Crits are a bad aspect of that game that should be eliminated on all levels, along with random damage and shotgun spread but that's just me. They only serve a purpose for sniper headshots and backstabs. Hell stabs work better with crits disabled. If you're taking getting kritzed, that is a different story. As for maps, gold rush and dust bowl suck. It is obvious why they are bad maps but the community still likes them. 5cp maps and attack/defend maps in the style of gravel pit are just better designed and don't force teams though uphill choke points that can be spammed constantly.
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I agree with zer0das on the demoman argument. The reason why it seems like the demoman is OP is because most pubs are filled with mindless spammers and snipers/spies who don't know what they're doing. If you're playing in a server with 30-32 people and everyone's just spamming, the demoman is definitely going to seem strong because players tend to be more clumped together, and with so many people and little teamwork, the demoman's spamming will definitely clean shit up.
When you're playing in smaller servers with people who play more strategically instead of blindly spamming critical points, the disadvantages of the demoman mentioned so far become really apparent, namely that they're horrible against spies, snipers and pyros, and have a long-ass reload time.
edit:
btw, is there a TL tf2 server? This thread seems to be getting just as much attention as the cs:s thread and they have two servers up apparently.
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The best demos in the game spam. It's just that they do intelligent spam.
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edit:
btw, is there a TL tf2 server? This thread seems to be getting just as much attention as the cs:s thread and they have two servers up apparently.
I've considered purchasing a server before, so I may take this initiative. 24 players, stock maps maybe a few things here and there.
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On June 30 2011 09:44 Stoids wrote:Show nested quote +
edit:
btw, is there a TL tf2 server? This thread seems to be getting just as much attention as the cs:s thread and they have two servers up apparently.
I've considered purchasing a server before, so I may take this initiative. 24 players, stock maps maybe a few things here and there.
If you'll host 5CP maps def count me in, no random crit is prety sweet too.
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On June 30 2011 09:53 Fitz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 09:44 Stoids wrote:
edit:
btw, is there a TL tf2 server? This thread seems to be getting just as much attention as the cs:s thread and they have two servers up apparently.
I've considered purchasing a server before, so I may take this initiative. 24 players, stock maps maybe a few things here and there. If you'll host 5CP maps def count me in, no random crit is prety sweet too.
I'm not sure I'm a fan of no crits. I play huntsman sniper/spy mostly so it would do nothing but help me. However, I enjoy the random and casual aspect of the game. I like to take my TF2 with a dose of relaxation.
edit: I'm taking this into my hands. If you have suggestions for the server, feel free to PM me. I will get this setup within the next 48 hours or so. I will keep you updated.
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Bullshit does not a good game make. Turning off crits, random damage, and random shotgun spread doesn't mean you're playing a hardcore game. You can play the game as casual as you want but they are not good game mechanics.
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I remember when crits were based on how many previous kills you had...the good ol' days.
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On June 30 2011 09:59 Shrub wrote:
Bullshit does not a good game make. Turning off crits, random damage, and random shotgun spread doesn't mean you're playing a hardcore game. You can play the game as casual as you want but they are not good game mechanics.
Calm down there Yoda. The game is supposed to be fun. I believe that crits add more fun for me than they take away. Your opinion may be different, so feel free to start up your own server.
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What shrub said, I can understand how those mechanics can be fun (mostly when you're the one landing that clutch crocket). But when you slowly prepare a push with your medic and suddenly, a mid-long range heavy (apparently harmless) pop those crits, rip you and the uber-ready medic to shreds, you'll feel worse than loosing your nat to a double raxs&bunkers push. 
Edit: in the end you're the one paying, and I'll have fun either way (see upper post) just want to show you how sometimes they're unfun/etc.
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On June 30 2011 10:09 Fitz wrote:What shrub said, I can understand how those mechanics can be fun (mostly when you're the one landing that clutch crocket). But when you slowly prepare a push with your medic and suddenly, a mid-long range heavy (apparently harmless) pop those crits, rip you and the uber-ready medic to shreds, you'll feel worse than loosing your nat to a double raxs&bunkers push. Edit: in the end you're the one paying, and I'll have fun either way (see upper post) just want to show you how sometimes they're unfun/etc.
Those distinct moments of frustration and jubilation have kept me coming back to TF2 for years. Just my opinion. I play the game at a pretty high level and I've never felt that the presence of crits has taken away from my ability to out-skill other players.
edit: I am open to the idea. If people on TL overwhelming want a no-crit server then I may oblige. I just personally enjoy having it in the game for the occasional laugh
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On June 30 2011 09:59 Cyberspace1 wrote:
I remember when crits were based on how many previous kills you had...the good ol' days.
Isn't that still the case? You get more crits the better you're doing better?
On June 30 2011 10:05 Stoids wrote:
Calm down there Yoda. The game is supposed to be fun. I believe that crits add more fun for me than they take away. Your opinion may be different, so feel free to start up your own server.
Not to be a dick, but I can't imagine how anyone who's been playing the game for a while would think crits improve their experience. When I get a random crit I feel guilty and when I get critted I get infuriated. Can you explain why you feel this way?
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On June 30 2011 10:12 Stoids wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 10:09 Fitz wrote:What shrub said, I can understand how those mechanics can be fun (mostly when you're the one landing that clutch crocket). But when you slowly prepare a push with your medic and suddenly, a mid-long range heavy (apparently harmless) pop those crits, rip you and the uber-ready medic to shreds, you'll feel worse than loosing your nat to a double raxs&bunkers push. Edit: in the end you're the one paying, and I'll have fun either way (see upper post) just want to show you how sometimes they're unfun/etc. Those distinct moments of frustration and jubilation have kept me coming back to TF2 for years. Just my opinion. I play the game at a pretty high level and I've never felt that the presence of crits has taken away from my ability to out-skill other players.
I have to ask, what high level group would keep crits on with how the game has progressed.
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Trying to come to conclusions about competitive aspects of the game from casual play on pub servers is like trying to come to conclusions about competitive aspects of starcraft from playing BGH. Just stop.
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Not to be a dick, but I can't imagine how anyone who's been playing the game for a while would feel this way. When I get a random crit I feel guilty and when I get critted I get infuriated. Can you explain why you feel this way?
I don't know why you would feel guilty about a random % chance occurrence in a game. It is not like you are consciously making the decision to get an easy kill. It is not the "cheesing of TF2," rather a part of the game. Your feeling of guilt is as perplexing to me as my feelings of joy are to you.
I have to ask, what high level group would keep crits on with how the game has progressed.
Even in competitive games there is random chance. However if this was a scrim/competitive server, I would completely agree with taking away random crits. At that point you are trying to illustrate who is the better group of players in an organized format. I don't feel like pubs in TF2 are meant to accomplish that.
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I know there is random chance, but the point is to always eliminate as much of it as possible. The point I was and will continue to make is that having crits off doesn't mean you have to all of a sudden take the game seriously. They just are not a good mechanic. As for the feeling of joy, you did nothing to influence your chance of getting a crit. Wouldn't you feel better knowing that you outplayed that person? Wouldn't knowing that you did the work to outplay them, not an rng, make you feel more happy?
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On June 30 2011 10:29 Shrub wrote:
I know there is random chance, but the point is to always eliminate as much of it as possible. The point I was and will continue to make is that having crits off doesn't mean you have to all of a sudden take the game seriously. They just are not a good mechanic. As for the feeling of joy, you did nothing to influence your chance of getting a crit. Wouldn't you feel better knowing that you outplayed that person? Wouldn't knowing that you did the work to outplay them, not an rng, make you feel more happy?
Recently I've been playing vanilla spy/huntsman sniper, so I haven't been the beneficiary of random crits in a while. I agree in the overarching point you are trying to make. There is no point in arguing past this point since we will both just continue circle jerking in a never ending preference fest. I respect your opinion.
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EPT
