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On September 17 2014 02:16 freelander wrote:isn't it retarded that you need guides to do a simple special move?  I mean it's just so backward design.
I mean, you don't NEED a guide to perform the special move, it's just: press 5 buttons rapidly and the last button determines the version. The preferred order for the button presses varies from person to person, that's it.
Plus a lot of the moves are balanced this way; imagine a chun with lightning legs as a motion, loops for days
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On September 17 2014 02:16 freelander wrote:isn't it retarded that you need guides to do a simple special move? I mean it's just so backward design.
I don't think Mash inputs are that hard to do once you know how to do them. Even though I'm currently having a bit of problems executing them, I'll suspect it's currently because of a combination of that I'm a bit rusty at the moment and I'm still trying to learn how to play Decapre.
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On September 17 2014 05:34 WindWolf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 02:16 freelander wrote:isn't it retarded that you need guides to do a simple special move? I mean it's just so backward design. I don't think Mash inputs are that hard to do once you know how to do them. Even though I'm currently having a bit of problems executing them, I'll suspect it's currently because of a combination of that I'm a bit rusty at the moment and I'm still trying to learn how to play Decapre.
er.. you are contradicting your own post.. you say it's not that hard to do while you can't do it consistently. okay 
it'd be okay if this would be some super strong tech or interesting setup, wow I learnt a lot of those in my games.. but this is just a low forward into a special move. actually this was one of the last nails in the coffin, I quit sf4 after ultra. I just hated too many things in it to play it. I don't know why it's still going so strong (I could get it when it first came out. The nostalgia train of sf2 hit the old gamers etc etc.) I started playing it because the local community's majority played this game. I switched to KoF XIII and probably will play GGXrd when it comes out. We only got like 3 or 4 people who play KoF xiii in my country but fuck it, I'm having more fun with it than I've ever had with sf4.
sorry for ranting here, i just clocked quite a few hours into training mode over the ~2 years I played the game.
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On September 17 2014 04:11 Pwere wrote:
I've noticed it in UMVC3 on PS3. When I was playing with a friend, whoever was hosting basically had a 2:1 win ratio. And it's night and day in USF4 PC for me. I got one playable game out of 15 when I joined, and the two games I got as a host were better than that game.
It could be a coincidence due to sample size, but I really doubt it...
Are you sure that the folks you're joining consistently have green bars, and that perhaps people that join you are (hopefully) folks that found YOUR green bars? I haven't noticed anything to this effect in over 2 years of AE/Ultra, and UMVC3 actually.
On September 17 2014 08:49 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 05:34 WindWolf wrote:On September 17 2014 02:16 freelander wrote:isn't it retarded that you need guides to do a simple special move? I mean it's just so backward design. I don't think Mash inputs are that hard to do once you know how to do them. Even though I'm currently having a bit of problems executing them, I'll suspect it's currently because of a combination of that I'm a bit rusty at the moment and I'm still trying to learn how to play Decapre. er.. you are contradicting your own post.. you say it's not that hard to do while you can't do it consistently. okay it'd be okay if this would be some super strong tech or interesting setup, wow I learnt a lot of those in my games.. but this is just a low forward into a special move. actually this was one of the last nails in the coffin, I quit sf4 after ultra. I just hated too many things in it to play it. I don't know why it's still going so strong (I could get it when it first came out. The nostalgia train of sf2 hit the old gamers etc etc.) I started playing it because the local community's majority played this game. I switched to KoF XIII and probably will play GGXrd when it comes out. We only got like 3 or 4 people who play KoF xiii in my country but fuck it, I'm having more fun with it than I've ever had with sf4. sorry for ranting here, i just clocked quite a few hours into training mode over the ~2 years I played the game.
Actually on the contrary I would argue that "hands" input specials typically ARE more rewarding than other safe specials. Compare [low forward > fireball] on shotos to [low forward > daggers] on Decapre. When spaced properly both are relatively safe, but daggers has a lot of corner carry, and depending on the opponent/whiff you can actually confirm into H.daggers (more damage and even more carry) instead of just using the L.daggers for safe pressure. Honda hands pressure is similar. A fireball is always just a fireball in that position.
I'd posit two things: a) a majority of players would say they are more afraid of Decapre low forward > dagger pressure than low forward > fireball from a shoto, and b) if daggers was just a fireball motion, then the ease of performing low forward > daggers would make it VERY very strong.
You can say that in a perfect world with perfect players, if you assume everyone's always going to execute correctly, it would be unfair to have the hands be substantially better. However, even at the highest levels, players can often be inconsistent with hands. I somewhat agree that it's a silly and dated motion, but I don't agree that Decapre's "low forward into special" pressure is worse than other characters as a result, simply because the "just a special move" in question IS better to compensate.
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I wonder what it would be like to play a fighting game where the stick just had a button for each move, sort of like a keyboard with hotkeys in an RTS.
There will be so many buttons that people will surely still have errors, and execution often relies on timing, so the motions of special moves just becomes 2nd nature for most players.
I bet the skill ceiling would go up fast and hard, especially for grapplers and heavy input special move characters like that.
In fact I'd go as far as to say, I would rather watch pros play on that sort of system instead of the archaic sticks/pad that we are accustomed to.
IE; You still have basic normals and their command normals with a stick/dpad, but there are tons of other buttons around those that do everything, hadoukens of each strength, tatsus each strength, shaku fireballs each strength, SRK of each strength, and then all the EX versions of those, super, ultras, FA, FADC >, FADC <, Throw <, Throw >.
So that alone is like 38 keys to memorize and use effectively . It's not like 'macros are cheating' if you have a full keyboard like in RTS games to utilize. And again, you still have to have good dexterity, memory, timing, execution, decision making, etc.
I wonder if I could programs my Razer KB to try that.
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United States12235 Posts
There is no host advantage because the netcode is peer-to-peer, meaning both our machines take turns sending and receiving data during a match and both machines' updates rely upon each other. If it used a client-server model like, say, Counter-Strike, the server machine can act independently of any clients and if a client receives delayed data, sucks to be them because the server is still chugging along doing its thing unaffected.
Also, about mash specials: I really don't like them. I understand they're a holdover from SF2, and I thought they were fine there because "press a bunch of buttons!!!!" but I feel like they don't really fit SF4 due to the bizarrely strict execution requirement. Almost everything else in SF4, short of RSF loops and TK cancels, is pretty dang easy to do. Mash inputs aren't really the "press a bunch of buttons!!!!" thing they used to be because if you really do just mash buttons, you end up burning an EX stock. That means that in order to get the strength of the special you want (which is pretty much always fierce except for Decapre, why do those other strengths even exist) you have to develop an unnatural button rhythm just to execute that move reliably. It just feels really odd.
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On September 17 2014 08:49 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 05:34 WindWolf wrote:On September 17 2014 02:16 freelander wrote:isn't it retarded that you need guides to do a simple special move? I mean it's just so backward design. I don't think Mash inputs are that hard to do once you know how to do them. Even though I'm currently having a bit of problems executing them, I'll suspect it's currently because of a combination of that I'm a bit rusty at the moment and I'm still trying to learn how to play Decapre. er.. you are contradicting your own post.. you say it's not that hard to do while you can't do it consistently. okay
Not right now, because as a say, I'm currently a bit rusty. However when I wasn't and I was playing lots of Chun, I had almost no issue doing legs motion
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On September 17 2014 11:40 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I wonder what it would be like to play a fighting game where the stick just had a button for each move, sort of like a keyboard with hotkeys in an RTS.
There will be so many buttons that people will surely still have errors, and execution often relies on timing, so the motions of special moves just becomes 2nd nature for most players.
There are games like this, kinda. Games that have experimented with making every special move be tied to one directional input at most, so 6D, 4D, 2D are all different moves. IMO, it doesn't feel good at all, since execution is one way characters feel unique from one another. It may not change the game fundamentally, but it does change the experience to be a little less fun, especially if you enjoy characters with a high degree of execution.
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it does change the game considerably. there is more to the current "traditional inputs" than meets the eye. if shoryus were just a button press or a direction+button press, that'd make them hella op in a street fighter style game(in their current state). The mexican uppercut provides an alternative for shoryus for exactly this reason: it's faster to execute, with less reward and takes less mental presence to use.
well, this input system of course could work, but it couldn't be implemented into the current established "rhytm" of the games. Shoryus'd need a lot more startup for example to balance, but that'd mess up their use as reversal etc.
you can take a look at persona4 where shoryus are mapped to a double button press. the designers had to put life costs for using shoryus and they are quite toned down.
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On September 17 2014 13:10 WindWolf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 08:49 freelander wrote:On September 17 2014 05:34 WindWolf wrote:On September 17 2014 02:16 freelander wrote:isn't it retarded that you need guides to do a simple special move? I mean it's just so backward design. I don't think Mash inputs are that hard to do once you know how to do them. Even though I'm currently having a bit of problems executing them, I'll suspect it's currently because of a combination of that I'm a bit rusty at the moment and I'm still trying to learn how to play Decapre. er.. you are contradicting your own post.. you say it's not that hard to do while you can't do it consistently. okay Not right now, because as a say, I'm currently a bit rusty. However when I wasn't and I was playing lots of Chun, I had almost no issue doing legs motion
yea. You wrote in your post "I don't think Mash inputs are that hard to do once you know how to do them." You clearly knew once how to do them, but now you are "having a bit of problems executing them". I thought that was a contradiction.
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On September 17 2014 14:16 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 11:40 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I wonder what it would be like to play a fighting game where the stick just had a button for each move, sort of like a keyboard with hotkeys in an RTS.
There will be so many buttons that people will surely still have errors, and execution often relies on timing, so the motions of special moves just becomes 2nd nature for most players. There are games like this, kinda. Games that have experimented with making every special move be tied to one directional input at most, so 6D, 4D, 2D are all different moves. IMO, it doesn't feel good at all, since execution is one way characters feel unique from one another. It may not change the game fundamentally, but it does change the experience to be a little less fun, especially if you enjoy characters with a high degree of execution.
I didn't mean each direction on the stick is a different move, I meant having essentially just the stick part connected to like a keyboard, only the buttons are different and each one does a move, throw, etc.
+ Show Spoiler +
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You could do that on the PSP version of SFA3, assign moves to the buttons. It's soooo OP(but PSP SF is harder due to the controller).
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England2662 Posts
On September 17 2014 02:16 freelander wrote:isn't it retarded that you need guides to do a simple special move? I mean it's just so backward design.
As someone still in the phase where inputs are a big obstacle, I can't quite understand the logic in making the inputs so difficult. I'm a big fan of Arc-Sys games and I have no trouble doing inputs in those games, despite them still having mostly the same motions (plus some really wacky ones). Losing a game when you fail the motion that would've meant to you won it is so soul destroying, it's a wonder the game is so popular. Almost every other game is simple to start with and hard to master. This is really hard to even start. I don't think anyone would mind just a bit more accessibility.
That said, I am enjoying the game. I usually try out SF4 everytime a new version comes out and with some changes in approach, I'm being a lot more successful this time around.
All the issues I'm having I think are just due to the huge learning curve. I can't think of any game I've ever played with such a huge learning curve.
Edit: While I'm the subject of inaccesibility, the matchmaking for "same skill" is really, really bad. I'm around 500pp and it's matching me with people at 4000~ when I pick same skill. This was especially horrible when I started playing and the same skill function is matching me with people in the top 1000 when I'm number 9999+.
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This game throws you into a pool of sharks from day 1, I've probably quit this game a dozen times from it being so hard and the matchups often being very uneven. I stick with it though, learning new things is so rewarding I can't quit and now I occasionally take games even off of 2500pp people.
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On September 18 2014 19:20 Flicky wrote:
Edit: While I'm the subject of inaccesibility, the matchmaking for "same skill" is really, really bad. I'm around 500pp and it's matching me with people at 4000~ when I pick same skill. This was especially horrible when I started playing and the same skill function is matching me with people in the top 1000 when I'm number 9999+.
Are you sure you're not confusing BP and PP? PP is more of a measure on the player's overall quality while BP is specific to characters and doesn't decay as harshly, and is also irrelevant to matchmaking. With the stat reset that accompanied Ultra, people with ~5000BP with characters can often be "Top 100" depending on console, but it doesn't mean much when it's hard to lose BP below 5000 (then it turns over slightly). PP is usually the more relevant stat, and I've RARELY, if ever, gotten matched with someone more than 400-500PP away from me using Same Skilled.
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England2662 Posts
On September 19 2014 03:21 Duka08 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 19:20 Flicky wrote:
Edit: While I'm the subject of inaccesibility, the matchmaking for "same skill" is really, really bad. I'm around 500pp and it's matching me with people at 4000~ when I pick same skill. This was especially horrible when I started playing and the same skill function is matching me with people in the top 1000 when I'm number 9999+. Are you sure you're not confusing BP and PP? PP is more of a measure on the player's overall quality while BP is specific to characters and doesn't decay as harshly, and is also irrelevant to matchmaking. With the stat reset that accompanied Ultra, people with ~5000BP with characters can often be "Top 100" depending on console, but it doesn't mean much when it's hard to lose BP below 5000 (then it turns over slightly). PP is usually the more relevant stat, and I've RARELY, if ever, gotten matched with someone more than 400-500PP away from me using Same Skilled.
Weirdly enough, I mean PP. The thing I said.
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On September 19 2014 04:32 Flicky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2014 03:21 Duka08 wrote:On September 18 2014 19:20 Flicky wrote:
Edit: While I'm the subject of inaccesibility, the matchmaking for "same skill" is really, really bad. I'm around 500pp and it's matching me with people at 4000~ when I pick same skill. This was especially horrible when I started playing and the same skill function is matching me with people in the top 1000 when I'm number 9999+. Are you sure you're not confusing BP and PP? PP is more of a measure on the player's overall quality while BP is specific to characters and doesn't decay as harshly, and is also irrelevant to matchmaking. With the stat reset that accompanied Ultra, people with ~5000BP with characters can often be "Top 100" depending on console, but it doesn't mean much when it's hard to lose BP below 5000 (then it turns over slightly). PP is usually the more relevant stat, and I've RARELY, if ever, gotten matched with someone more than 400-500PP away from me using Same Skilled. Weirdly enough, I mean PP. The thing I said.
I hope I didn't sound condescending. I was genuinely surprised, and I myself was confused about PP/BP for a while when I started playing online. Apologies.
I've had pretty good luck with Same Skilled myself, but I can't host games because like you describe I frequently get highly ranked players (that must be searching for Any? Probably not easy to find same or more skilled once you're above 3-4k). Sometimes it can be fun and inspiring if you have an honest match with someone way above your level, understanding where you went wrong and how they beat you. But other times it's a total blow up on characters with strong set ups and such
I'm having more fun these days just playing alternate characters and learning the new ones, since some of them are really confusing to fight even after many matches (Rolento and Elena mostly).
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I always either search for any skill or host games. It might seem a bit douchy but it feels good to completely destroy some players even if they are much worse than me because it helps me to keep my cool after losing sometimes as well as build confidence. I never hold back (well yeah down-back all the time ba dum tss), so I hope they learn something as well.
I think it has its advantages to play worse players sometimes. One caliber of player (between 1-2k PP maybe) can be good practice, because they usually aren't that good but they know the gimmicks of the character they play so grinding it out against those kinds of players helps you to learn how to beat some stuff. I would never have been as confident against certain characters as I am now if it weren't for these kinds of players.
You should be happy if you find someone better than you to play against, especially if they take it seriously. It's not fun getting wrecked but you learn a lot from it even if you don't realize it. Speaking of which, a really good turkish Vega joined my lobby the other day and as expected I got bodied (because I suck versus Vega). The guy kept joining and we played 10-15 games, after many losses I managed to win and then he didn't come back. These kinds of experiences are the best in my opinion. Yeah I got my ass handed to me but after each game I started to do better and better resulting in a win in the end, it felt like a genuine learning experience.
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On September 19 2014 05:55 kuresuti wrote:
The guy kept joining and we played 10-15 games, after many losses I managed to win and then he didn't come back. These kinds of experiences are the best in my opinion. Yeah I got my ass handed to me but after each game I started to do better and better resulting in a win in the end, it felt like a genuine learning experience.
These experiences are probably the main thing that keep me coming back to the game. I never really get salty at a loss, maybe only at mistakes I made or how I didn't adapt to someone's bullshit, but I really only get genuinely upset when I can't get the run back. I'll gladly (relatively) lose a dozen games in a row as long as the other person is being a good sport and I feel like I'm at least getting something out of it.
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That's the great thing about fighting games. You get to play many games very rapidly, study the opponent's tendencies, and learn from every defeat. Your gameplay is constantly leveling up and you can witness the effects immediately. It's a very rewarding journey of self-improvement, as long as you don't mind losing a lot along the way.
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