EPTI don't think Cammy is that huge of a problem. She's really powerful but I still think that Fei Long is better.
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
I don't think Cammy is that huge of a problem. She's really powerful but I still think that Fei Long is better. | ||
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Pooshlmer
United States1001 Posts
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Looms
United States4624 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On September 30 2013 16:09 Mannerheim wrote: Post-tournament FGC tweets are going in on Cammy pretty hard. I think it's pretty clear that she's becoming an impediment for the game, in the same way as Phoenix was for vanilla MvC3, i.e. negatively affecting people's motivation to play the game. That's a problem, regardless of whether she's objectively "overpowered" or not. If Ultra wasn't on the horizon this game would be in pretty deep shit. That's one thing for sure, if it wasn't for Ultra, the FGC's flag titles would be in serious shit right now and the FGC itself in a pretty bad mood. AE is great but it has glaring problems, and the hype around UMvC3 is a bit on the low side these days because of ChrisG's domination. ( although this might change now that Fchamp beat him ) | ||
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Mannerheim
766 Posts
It's nothing a balance patch couldn't solve, but that seems unlikely to happen for Marvel. | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On September 30 2013 13:56 WindWolf wrote: I didn't watch the tournament, but I still don't like that the first thing people do after a Cammy wins/does well is to complain about her in a way that the character, and not the player, won. Will try and ask this again. Did Popi beat Infiltration just because he plays Cammy? I would tend to agree with you, but I think CC provided a good case study for the character. When one Cammy goes deep and/or wins a tournament, it's hard to point fingers. When 3-4 different Cammy's have great showings in the 1v1 and team format in the same tournament, it starts to feel like a plague. I'll be honest, even when I hate the character I still give mad props to the players for winning, like you said. But this weekend was about the closest I'll get lol. Every time one of the big Cammy players was up, especially in the mindset of the team tournament, it always felt like "oh shit here comes Cammy" not "oh shit here comes Chirithy" or whatever. Doesn't help that many Cammy's play so similarly, too. Idk I usually don't whine about balance, and I think in the grand scheme of things she's way less "OP" RELATIVE to the rest of the cast than some characters in other games. It's more psychological, I feel. Every Cammy bodies people in the same way, and the character starts to feel overwhelming. With some of the other top chars, there are still play style differences between different players. Take Akuma for example. I personally can see and feel a difference when Tokido is playing versus when Infiltration is playing. I'd probably say the same for Fei as well (though I know less about Fei overall so I don't pick up on subtleties). Even the Mad Catz event in Japan recently showed us a great Sakura player (Juso) that went deep, another character lots of people fear these days. But watching him the playstyle was, in my opinion, very different than Chris G's for example. But Cammy feels like Cammy. Same setups. Same two optimized combos. Stun. Groaning. Oh god this character brlblrblbrbrb. Just my poorly educated spectator's take on the situation. | ||
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WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
IDK, but it feels as if pro FGC player has been given up early on the games' meta | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On September 30 2013 23:56 WindWolf wrote: Maybe I've been watching too much DotA2 lately, but has both AE 2012 and Marvel really been "figured out at this point"? The metagame in Dota never seems to stop evolving and changing, even when there hasn't been a balance patch for a while. Now someone can go out and say "but pro Dota players only picks the same heroes" but I want to say, try and look at it from a bigger perspective. For example, TI2 Naga was, well, TI2 Naga. Then she mostly fell out of favor and not to long before TI3, she saw more and more play, and now she's a good (but not broken) support hero. IDK, but it feels as if pro FGC player has been given up early on the games' meta I think it's a hard comparison. You say "but pro Dota players only picks the same heroes" but I actually think it's the opposite. One player can play a pretty large variety of heroes. If every top FGC player could play 3-5 different characters EQUALLY WELL, then there'd be a lot more counterpicking and a lot more "variety". But I don't necessarily see that as a good thing. I like the variety fighting games have where people are loyal to characters and make them work exceedingly well, even in light of bad matchups. It would be somewhat analogous (really rough) to Admiral Bulldog's Syllabear I suppose, for a random example. Someone known for playing a specific character very well, and the opposing team is welcome to counter him all they want, but if he still plays well the hero can still look monstrous, even in the face of a "bad matchup". Again I think the team dynamic changes everything anyway, but if you had to draw comparisons then, yeah... For the same reason, I don't think fighting games can really get permanently "figured out". If SF4 was never getting updated, but people kept playing it without letting it die (not likely but let's imagine) then eventually I think players would find pocket characters and styles to beat whatever's top tier. However, the time scales required just happen to be much much longer, years even. Think of how long Vergil's been strong now, or at least how long it feels like. Then look at how Fchamp trounced ChrisG this weekend. Vergil never even felt like a problem, and you probably didn't even notice that unless you thought about it. He just played the game accordingly. Meta still shifts in FG's in my opinion, just soooo slowww. For whatever reasons. There's a lot of contributing factors. Edit: also yes, as mentioned above, you discount the fact that moba's get updated insanely frequently. Could draw comparisons to Injustice as that's getting changed a lot, regularly. I know virtually nothing about the game, but each update seems to mix things up a bit, and make most players happy at least. If SF4 was getting number changes on a nearly weekly basis, purely adjusting things like damage or frame advantage across the cast in a very minor way, 5-10 damage at a time, 1 recovery frame at a time, then the game would probably feel much different lol. | ||
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YulyaVolkova
United Kingdom95 Posts
On September 30 2013 23:56 WindWolf wrote: Maybe I've been watching too much DotA2 lately, but has both AE 2012 and Marvel really been "figured out at this point"? The metagame in Dota never seems to stop evolving and changing, even when there hasn't been a balance patch for a while. Now someone can go out and say "but pro Dota players only picks the same heroes" but I want to say, try and look at it from a bigger perspective. For example, TI2 Naga was, well, TI2 Naga. Then she mostly fell out of favor and not to long before TI3, she saw more and more play, and now she's a good (but not broken) support hero. IDK, but it feels as if pro FGC player has been given up early on the games' meta Dota never stops evolving because the game is completely reinvented every few months-year. Professional players were literally not playing an even remotely similar game in TI2 to TI3. Also, fighting games are constantly evolving but as mentioned by Duka, much slower due to the game not changing other than very rare updates. When you have a games thats not/infrequently being updated most of the obvious/really useful stuff is figured out in the first few months. After that its just very small little additions of tech to certain characters, or the game as a whole through vast amounts of experimentation by lots of people. These small things can potentially completely change the game and make a very clear difference to the 'meta', but often won't. Id also argue that fighting games have been around for long enough now that long term players likely have a solid ability to 'read' the characters in a new game and recognise which characters are clearly superior to others. They then start playing one of these characters, other players trying to be decent/competitive see these Justin Wongs/Daigos playing and winning tournaments with their chosen characters and the masses follow them leading to an almost immediate drop off of probably 50%+ of the cast in a game like SF4 (in tournament play). Fighting games are about striving to play the game perfectly by adding in and polishing as many of the tools available to you as you can. The game doesn't change particularly, its just all about the players slowly improving over time. Dota to a large degree is about figuring out the current version quicker than other teams and exploiting your knowledge/experience with the changes. | ||
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WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
On October 01 2013 00:05 Excalibur_Z wrote: Icefrog changes a few numbers and he's done, and if it didn't work out how he expected, another update arrives in a few days to either revert or further adjust. Balancing Dota is more than just changing numbers (Treant Protector says hi) On October 01 2013 00:06 Duka08 wrote: I think it's a hard comparison. You say "but pro Dota players only picks the same heroes" but I actually think it's the opposite. One player can play a pretty large variety of heroes. I meant more that someone could say "look at these recent games of Dota, and you'll see that A,B,C... is the heroes that is picked the most" It would be somewhat analogous (really rough) to Admiral Bulldog's Syllabear I suppose, for a random example. The days of Bulldog only playing LD is over. He's pretty good at Nature's Prophet and Bounty Hunter as well Think of how long Vergil's been strong now, or at least how long it feels like. Then look at how Fchamp trounced ChrisG this weekend. Vergil never even felt like a problem, and you probably didn't even notice that unless you thought about it. He just played the game accordingly. I only started watching Marvel just before this years Evo so it doesn't really tell me much (Plus, the only Swedish pro-Marvel player I know of plays Zero-Trish-Virgil. Just gotta cheer for him) | ||
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Lemstar
United States387 Posts
On September 30 2013 23:56 WindWolf wrote: Maybe I've been watching too much DotA2 lately, but has both AE 2012 and Marvel really been "figured out at this point"? The metagame in Dota never seems to stop evolving and changing, even when there hasn't been a balance patch for a while. Dota has more moving parts. Wouldn't you argue that something more static like, say, Shadowfiend mirror 1v1 mid is pretty much figured out? | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:50 WindWolf wrote: Balancing Dota is more than just changing numbers (Treant Protector says hi) I meant more that someone could say "look at these recent games of Dota, and you'll see that A,B,C... is the heroes that is picked the most" The days of Bulldog only playing LD is over. He's pretty good at Nature's Prophet and Bounty Hunter as well I only started watching Marvel just before this years Evo so it doesn't really tell me much (Plus, the only Swedish pro-Marvel player I know of plays Zero-Trish-Virgil. Just gotta cheer for him) I figured LD was out of style, but that's really the last era of DotA I paid attention too. Been busy of late. So maybe a few months behind. The same idea applies with any "X player is the best Y hero". Lemstar has a good point. | ||
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WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
On October 01 2013 05:58 Lemstar wrote: Dota has more moving parts. Wouldn't you argue that something more static like, say, Shadowfiend mirror 1v1 mid is pretty much figured out? I don't watch 1v1 mid mirrors | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
In my opinion the best fighting game fundamentally atm is KOF XIII, it just could use a balance patch perhaps | ||
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ain
Germany786 Posts
On October 01 2013 16:07 Shikyo wrote: SF probably can be figured out, it's rather simple in design(dash always same distance and lasts the same amount of time, jump always same distance and lasts the same amount of time, wakeup always the same amount of time, etc). Marvel on the other hand, not so. Plinkdashing for example is too fast to react to and there's way more variables. It's really random, however. In my opinion the best fighting game fundamentally atm is KOF XIII, it just could use a balance patch perhaps KoF XIII is a disgrace for a fighting game and especially for the series. Long touch of death combos are never a good thing for a game and any strong points KOF has are completely ruined by them. | ||
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Mannerheim
766 Posts
On October 01 2013 17:56 ain wrote: KoF XIII is a disgrace for a fighting game and especially for the series. Long touch of death combos are never a good thing for a game and any strong points KOF has are completely ruined by them. Pretty much, the game always transforms into Marvel in the last round where the first hit will lead to a HD kill combo, also making all the previous rounds pointless. | ||
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2stra
Netherlands928 Posts
On October 01 2013 17:56 ain wrote: KoF XIII is a disgrace for a fighting game and especially for the series. Long touch of death combos are never a good thing for a game and any strong points KOF has are completely ruined by them. Whoa, that's a bit harsh don't you think? You might not like it but "a disgrace for a fighting game"? IMO it is a great game (that I suck at) where you can kill a character if you choose to spend your bar but because meter builds slowly and is shared between three characters it doesn't feel unfair/bad to me. (+HD combo's are hard man, IMHO of course) But since this is the SF4 thread, I've been playing some Ryu and damn it feels good to OS every jump in : ) | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Since spacing and movement are so important to that game. HD combos are just very flashy and require a huge deal of resources. Oh well. By the way, anyone here know how to do things like stLK stLK superjump burnkick cross up on Viper ? I'm having a hard time with the motion D: | ||
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ain
Germany786 Posts
On October 01 2013 21:43 2stra wrote: Whoa, that's a bit harsh don't you think? You might not like it but "a disgrace for a fighting game"? IMO it is a great game (that I suck at) where you can kill a character if you choose to spend your bar but because meter builds slowly and is shared between three characters it doesn't feel unfair/bad to me. (+HD combo's are hard man, IMHO of course) Difficulty is not relevant. It would be if we were arguing whether the game is accessible. What I mean to say that it's fundamentally flawed, because such powerful combos actively reduce the amount of impact you have on the game. If a game ends after the first hit then the stakes for making a wrong decision are simply too high and it gets reduced to a divekick style gimmick. On October 01 2013 21:51 Noocta wrote: I always felt like KOF is the one game where if you're the better player, you'll always win. Since spacing and movement are so important to that game. HD combos are just very flashy and require a huge deal of resources. I agree, skill makes a huge difference in the game, that doesn't mean it's not mechanically broken. | ||
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