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On June 26 2013 00:56 a3den wrote:
He's so much bullshit in this game (the "this jump in breaks this antiair" thing he's got going on is terrible).Among the classic SF2 cast, he is definitively the character archetype that needs to disappear in the next SF games (unpopular opinion ftw)
Disagreed totally. Honda is a breath of fresh air in this game, one of the few characters that has to be played completely "legit". I much rather play against him than Cammy/Ibuki/Akuma/Sakura/Seth etc. Also excluding safe jumps all his jumpins can be antiaired just fine, so no idea what you mean by that comment...
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Honda's j.mp is what hes talking about, and it definitely blows up some normal anti-airs. Bison s.rh for example.
And it warms my heart that people hate my girl Sakura now. Its about goddamn time.
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Pre-nerf j.mp was pretty nasty, but I wouldn't call it a problem anymore now. It's not like Sakuras j.hp, which I hate with a passion.
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I know endless and ranked are like two different world but seriously I can't understand how my level change so much in between them.
I play endless with friends with over 2k PP all the time, and I do decently, winning pretty often and.making my play being respected ( they have to bring their main to win ).
But when I step foot into ranked, I just lose all my skills. I can't seem to win anything. I never got past 1500 BP( and finished today with less than 650 ), and I recently lost my B rank on my character because I went from 5k BP to less than 2k5 since my winrate is so terrible.
I know it's mainly a bad day, but sometimes I can't help but to think I'm getting worse the more I play this game.
Sigh..
Sorry for ventilating.
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I totally understand how you feel. Endless is a different environment. People play smarter, they play longer sets, you can adjust to each others game. Ranked you can get people, of all ranks, that do the dumbest most random stuff. Personally I think one mark of a solid player is adjusting to a player's tendencies. Late night when the ranked matches are quiet, I can frequently play against someone and lose 3-4 times in a row, often in baffling ways, then turn it around gradually and win just as many or more back to back. It's situations like this where I gain a bit of confidence back after tanking hundreds of PP on people playing strangely. In a perfect world you should always be able to win against someone playing like an idiot, but depending on the night I just can't figure it out. It haps.
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United States12240 Posts
Honda j.lp is the new j.mp. It stuffs a LOT of antiairs.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Sakura's j.fp is pretty dumb haha
I think they're just gonna extend the hurtbox downward so it doesn't have this gigantic extended hitbox anymore. if they don't make any other changes then it'll function exactly the same way in her oki without being able to stuff grounded anti-airs for no reason.
a good example of how game-breaking her j.fp can be is the Juri matchup - Juri is a character that relies heavily on her excellent anti-air normals, but Sakura's j.fp will stuff Juri's c.mp clean. Jump-ins aren't supposed to stuff that move lol
http://www.eventhubs.com/images/2011/sep/30/sakuras-hit-box-information-super-street-fighter-4-arcade-edition-image-1/
^ this is a link to some hitbox info for Sakura. j.fp is on the far right, 3rd image from the top. the green box indicates Sakura's vulnerable hurtbox, the red indicates her active hitbox. When a normal's hitbox (red) overlaps with an enemy's hurtbox (green), a hit is registered.
Here's a picture of Juri's hitboxes for reference: http://media.eventhubs.com/images/sf4/hitboxes/hitboxes_juri01.jpg
Her c.mp is in the second row, third column. Notice how the hitbox extends far above her vulnerable hurtbox, allowing her to beat out jumping normals because her hitbox contacts the jumping enemy's hurtbox before the reverse occurs
Now go back to Sakura's j.fp hitbox and see how far the red extends below the green. This is what causes her j.fp to be so ridiculous - the attack's hitbox extends away from the hurtbox even farther than Juri's anti-air hitbox does. When both moves are active and Sakura is falling toward Juri, Sakura hits her out of the c.mp because she straight up registers a hit first, and her hurtbox is way the hell up in la-la-land, never to be seen.
What they will likely do is take Sakura's j.fp and either a) extend the green box downward or b) contract the red box vertically. This will cause her j.fp to tend to lose to normals like Juri's c.mp (as it should), or if they only adjust it a little bit, simply be likely to trade
I would wager most of you know this shit already and have access to those resources but for everyone else I hope you find it neat!
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Nice post Steve. Good overview.
On June 26 2013 04:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
What they will likely do is take Sakura's j.fp and either a) extend the green box downward or b) contract the red box vertically. This will cause her j.fp to tend to lose to normals like Juri's c.mp (as it should), or if they only adjust it a little bit, simply be likely to trade
Of these two options you list here, which do you think would be a greater nerf, and which do you think is more likely? Curious.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
oh and if anyone's poking around looking at hitboxes after reading that, the blue/purple boxes indicate an extended hurtbox that is vulnerable to throws (Rog's EX punches, some of Honda's headbutts etc), and yellow boxes usually indicate the range at which the opponent will enter a blocking animation (and thus will not walk backwards). Your character will enter a different sort of 'blockstun' that prohibits only the act of walking backwards when they whiff stuff in front of you, the yellow box indicates that range
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Valhalla18444 Posts
The former would be a greater (and proper) nerf. Juri's c.mp only does like... 60 damage or so? most characters best normal anti-airs do in the 60-80 range, whereas Sakura's j.fp does like, a fucking hundred or something. That makes it still advantageous for Sakura, she just doesn't get a free combo.
Honestly, she shouldn't be able to just jump at some characters for free. it's pretty stupid. I will say that there are lots of cases where the opponent simply doesn't anti-air PROPERLY, however, like in Zangief's case. Chris G shit all over Vangief in a relatively recent tournament because Vangief couldn't anti-air her j.fp at all. If he knew that you have to do a delayed lariat from crouching, the story would have been different. I think I've mentioned this before, but there's a Gief in my city that I can NEVER jump at with Sakura, and a Gief of similar ability in Calgary that I can jump on for free because he doesn't understand how his anti-air works.
Not Juri tho, Juri just eats that shit and there's nothing she can do about it, and that's stupid. I think j.fp's hitbox should extend past the hurtbox, but only like 25% of the distance it extends right now. It would then lose to dedicated anti-air normals (Juri's c.mp/c.fp, Guile's c.fp) but still maintain its strength in her okizeme, and still be able to stuff/trade with certain things given perfect spacing. I would call it normalized at that point.
what I hope they DON'T do is just choke back the hitbox on it, or even suck it back into the hurtbox, Moving it significantly upwards would definitely affect her setups, because the hitbox needs to stay in relatively the same position during her jump arc for some of her setups to keep working. If they do that, I'm just gonna go find even dirtier stuff with her j.rh out of spite.
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United States12240 Posts
On June 26 2013 04:58 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
The former would be a greater (and proper) nerf. Juri's c.mp only does like... 60 damage or so? most characters best normal anti-airs do in the 60-80 range, whereas Sakura's j.fp does like, a fucking hundred or something. That makes it still advantageous for Sakura, she just doesn't get a free combo.
Honestly, she shouldn't be able to just jump at some characters for free. it's pretty stupid. I will say that there are lots of cases where the opponent simply doesn't anti-air PROPERLY, however, like in Zangief's case. Chris G shit all over Vangief in a relatively recent tournament because Vangief couldn't anti-air her j.fp at all. If he knew that you have to do a delayed lariat from crouching, the story would have been different. I think I've mentioned this before, but there's a Gief in my city that I can NEVER jump at with Sakura, and a Gief of similar ability in Calgary that I can jump on for free because he doesn't understand how his anti-air works.
Not Juri tho, Juri just eats that shit and there's nothing she can do about it, and that's stupid. I think j.fp's hitbox should extend past the hurtbox, but only like 25% of the distance it extends right now. It would then lose to dedicated anti-air normals (Juri's c.mp/c.fp, Guile's c.fp) but still maintain its strength in her okizeme, and still be able to stuff/trade with certain things given perfect spacing. I would call it normalized at that point.
what I hope they DON'T do is just choke back the hitbox on it, or even suck it back into the hurtbox, Moving it significantly upwards would definitely affect her setups, because the hitbox needs to stay in relatively the same position during her jump arc for some of her setups to keep working. If they do that, I'm just gonna go find even dirtier stuff with her j.rh out of spite.
J.hp can beat even crouch lariat, but the timing is stricter. Any good Zangief knows that you never throw out lariat alone, it always has to be from crouch if you're using it as an antiair. Sakura's j.hp (and her neutral jump hp is even better for this) wins because either Zangief never gets the chance to actually lariat, meaning he's still crouching when it connects, or Zangief does lariat and she actually hits his feet with her jump-in, which are still vulnerable. Most of the time in the latter case it will trade. The hitbox for her j.hk extends even further, so if the Zangief is waiting to antiair your j.hp, you just use j.hk instead and it hits him while he's still crouching and waiting.
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Jumping in on zangief? Id like me some of that 8[
About Honda - he is also pretty damn strong against viper, so I wouldnt say he loses to all the high tier chars. There just arent too many good players picking honda.
About the discrepancy between ranked and endless... Yeah there is definitely a big difference. In ranked you are more likely to experience some pretty yolo stuff. I regularly play europes top players in endless who have like 4k-5k pp and am practically even, still when I played ranked for a bit I would lose to some players with 1k pp to shit like shoryu on block, fadc, ultra... Its pretty frustrating at first but you gotta be able to handle those kinds of players so once you have gotten very good in endless, there is some sense in playing ranked for a bit, to practice evaluating players habits and skill level much quicker than you need to in endless. When you play someone of high skill you can play relatively normal, but when you detect a guy that does nonsensical stuff over and over its best to just play cautious and let him kill himself, even if it means you let a mixup opportunity go to waste here and there.
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On June 26 2013 12:00 diehilde wrote:
Jumping in on zangief? Id like me some of that 8[
About Honda - he is also pretty damn strong against viper, so I wouldnt say he loses to all the high tier chars. There just arent too many good players picking honda.
About the discrepancy between ranked and endless... Yeah there is definitely a big difference. In ranked you are more likely to experience some pretty yolo stuff. I regularly play europes top players in endless who have like 4k-5k pp and am practically even, still when I played ranked for a bit I would lose to some players with 1k pp to shit like shoryu on block, fadc, ultra... Its pretty frustrating at first but you gotta be able to handle those kinds of players so once you have gotten very good in endless, there is some sense in playing ranked for a bit, to practice evaluating players habits and skill level much quicker than you need to in endless. When you play someone of high skill you can play relatively normal, but when you detect a guy that does nonsensical stuff over and over its best to just play cautious and let him kill himself, even if it means you let a mixup opportunity go to waste here and there.
How to get to B+ rating "let them kill themselves"
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On June 26 2013 13:07 rwrzr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 12:00 diehilde wrote:
Jumping in on zangief? Id like me some of that 8[
About Honda - he is also pretty damn strong against viper, so I wouldnt say he loses to all the high tier chars. There just arent too many good players picking honda.
About the discrepancy between ranked and endless... Yeah there is definitely a big difference. In ranked you are more likely to experience some pretty yolo stuff. I regularly play europes top players in endless who have like 4k-5k pp and am practically even, still when I played ranked for a bit I would lose to some players with 1k pp to shit like shoryu on block, fadc, ultra... Its pretty frustrating at first but you gotta be able to handle those kinds of players so once you have gotten very good in endless, there is some sense in playing ranked for a bit, to practice evaluating players habits and skill level much quicker than you need to in endless. When you play someone of high skill you can play relatively normal, but when you detect a guy that does nonsensical stuff over and over its best to just play cautious and let him kill himself, even if it means you let a mixup opportunity go to waste here and there. How to get to B+ rating "let them kill themselves"
Pretty much this. The second I can tell someone is doing really silly stuff in ranked, I immediately start playing much much more defensively and ride any life lead I get. Let them be stupid and make mistakes, even if it means just a simple 50 dmg anti-air every 5-10 seconds, it leads to pretty easy victories sometimes. A strong, practiced defense goes a long way.
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i also stayed at b for a reeeal long time, with no tendency towards b+. when i stopped hosting games and joined them instead, i got b+ pretty fast. its all about not getting farmed by players way beyond your pp (and skill) too much.
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CEO should be hype, 5 of the best players in the Benelux are already there and tearing things up  (Netherlands, belgium)
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Lol, NL and BE? I remember watching the NL team being free at Canada Cup 2012...
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A general question about rules for tournaments.
In general, the winner of match has to keep his/her character while the loser is allowed to change, right? But is the winner generally allowed to switch Ultra or not?
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On June 28 2013 04:43 WindWolf wrote:
A general question about rules for tournaments.
In general, the winner of match has to keep his/her character while the loser is allowed to change, right? But is the winner generally allowed to switch Ultra or not?
Nah. The character/ultra combo are generally locked.
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EPT
