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On January 05 2013 05:49 YulyaVolkova wrote:
Yeah Shikyo the palm whiffs and the followup attack on the ground meatys in the whiff palm setups.
I think the general idea I was getting at mentioning Akuma and his vortex options are that people (including myself until recently) wrongly assume that Akuma can do basically whatever the fuck he wants in any knockdown situation and you have to guess between all the options he has off of any knockdown, on any knockdown, whereas the reality is that he only has a few options off of each type of knockdown and some of them can be immediately crossed off as possibilities once you see the start of the setup hes going for.
ie. If someone does an unblockable using a normal whiff setup and you just get hit by it - that was fixable before the situation ever arose by knowing the setup against your character in advance and knowing the correct way to get out of it (most unblockables have some special trick you can do to not get hit like crouching, dashing in a direction on wakeup etc). The normal is clearly visible while its being whiffed to time the jumpin off of this specific type of knockdown, theres nothing even remotely ambiguous about it until people start doing unblockable setups but come in with normals that dont create unblockables and now catch your unblockable-escape option, which people dont do yet. People just do setups and everyone goes 'omfg so hard to know how to defend' when the player doing the setup essentially said in the 'language of setups' exactly wtf theyre doing in the second or two before you get hit.
For example, viper forward throws ryu into the corner and whiffs stand roundhouse into a jump forward. By some mid point of the stand roundhouse the ryu player should immediately realize from memory that a forward jump roundhouse following this is reverse blockable. Viper jumps, ryu blocks correctly because he knows the setup, moves on with his life!
Dont get me wrong, I dont know hardly any of the setups possible against me and this is something ive been starting to work on recently. I feel like if people just get really good at knowing the few options that are actually possible in different situations alot of this talk of 'vortex' ruining the whole game might dissapear fairly fast.
Well its still a harsh setup because then Viper just presses medium kick for a regular crossup and Ryu is fucked again. I do this everytime once theyve shown they know reverse blockables. Oh and for some chars there are truly unblockable setups, like dash - j.RH against oni after Ultra. He might as well put his stick down cus hes gonna eat another big combo no matter what. You cant see what akuma is going for from the start of his setup. Its all decided split seconds before your wakeup, right over your head. Try spotting the difference between a crossup divekick and non-crossup divekick, its extremely miniscule, let alone react to it. Palm gives you a tiny bit more reaction time, but still up until the point the akuma player presses his button of choice the setup looks exactly the same, a Demon Flip above your head. The beauty with akuma is you dont need to give things away like take a step forward or back for one setup or the other or even whiff normals, its all decided by timing a press of a button during Demon Flip a split second before the opponent has to chose his wakeup option.
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On January 05 2013 07:54 diehilde wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 05:49 YulyaVolkova wrote:
Yeah Shikyo the palm whiffs and the followup attack on the ground meatys in the whiff palm setups.
I think the general idea I was getting at mentioning Akuma and his vortex options are that people (including myself until recently) wrongly assume that Akuma can do basically whatever the fuck he wants in any knockdown situation and you have to guess between all the options he has off of any knockdown, on any knockdown, whereas the reality is that he only has a few options off of each type of knockdown and some of them can be immediately crossed off as possibilities once you see the start of the setup hes going for.
ie. If someone does an unblockable using a normal whiff setup and you just get hit by it - that was fixable before the situation ever arose by knowing the setup against your character in advance and knowing the correct way to get out of it (most unblockables have some special trick you can do to not get hit like crouching, dashing in a direction on wakeup etc). The normal is clearly visible while its being whiffed to time the jumpin off of this specific type of knockdown, theres nothing even remotely ambiguous about it until people start doing unblockable setups but come in with normals that dont create unblockables and now catch your unblockable-escape option, which people dont do yet. People just do setups and everyone goes 'omfg so hard to know how to defend' when the player doing the setup essentially said in the 'language of setups' exactly wtf theyre doing in the second or two before you get hit.
For example, viper forward throws ryu into the corner and whiffs stand roundhouse into a jump forward. By some mid point of the stand roundhouse the ryu player should immediately realize from memory that a forward jump roundhouse following this is reverse blockable. Viper jumps, ryu blocks correctly because he knows the setup, moves on with his life!
Dont get me wrong, I dont know hardly any of the setups possible against me and this is something ive been starting to work on recently. I feel like if people just get really good at knowing the few options that are actually possible in different situations alot of this talk of 'vortex' ruining the whole game might dissapear fairly fast.
Well its still a harsh setup because then Viper just presses medium kick for a regular crossup and Ryu is fucked again. I do this everytime once theyve shown they know reverse blockables. Oh and for some chars there are truly unblockable setups, like dash - j.RH against oni after Ultra. He might as well put his stick down cus hes gonna eat another big combo no matter what. You cant see what akuma is going for from the start of his setup. Its all decided split seconds before your wakeup, right over your head. Try spotting the difference between a crossup divekick and non-crossup divekick, its extremely miniscule, let alone react to it. Palm gives you a tiny bit more reaction time, but still up until the point the akuma player presses his button of choice the setup looks exactly the same, a Demon Flip above your head. The beauty with akuma is you dont need to give things away like take a step forward or back for one setup or the other or even whiff normals, its all decided by timing a press of a button during Demon Flip a split second before the opponent has to chose his wakeup option.
I agree that you literally cant defend against everything every time, what im getting at is that the way situations truly are are as you described - essentially 50/50s in lots of cases. Viper does the reverse blockable setup but has the option between roundhouse and forward for back or front? A 50/50. Akuma has a couple of different demonflip divekicks, its a 50/50. Kunai vortex is a 50/50 at worst.
The way these kinds of things are often described is that instead of 2 or sometimes 3 options, the characters have like 10 that cant be reacted to and have to be defended against in different ways. It gives the impression that the person will almost never defend correctly when in reality if they know the possibilities it can often be narrowed down to at worst (mostly) 2 options that you need to guess between. People dont hugely berate Zangief for having a very powerful 50/50ish game if he knocks you down where an SPD is horrifically bad for you but doing anything that would beat SPD has plenty of other things they lose to. Having to guess between throw/delayed meaty/bait when random character X is standing above you on your wakeup doesnt create forum shitstorms on SRK.
The problem imo is that most people (including myself) dont have the knowledge to the point such that you realize the 50/50 youre in after a certain knockdown vs a certain character, youre instead worrying about 7 other options that the guy cant even do off of this knockdown and wasting brain power. Also I think the damage off of some of these 50/50s is kinda overboard and the 'vortex' aspect of it, in that if you guess wrong vs Akuma hes putting you in the same situation again and can just win if you flip a coin wrong a few times in a row, thats maybe a bit silly.
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Hmmm...
I guess one could play UMVC3 and try to block Viper mixups there, and after they can do that SF4 Viper should pose no problems.
Though to be honest it's probably just the thing that off a blocked jumpin Viper gets an additional 50/50 burnkick mixup that other characters don't get, and with proper jumps she can also choose to hit the front or the back and it's quite ambiguous. There's also the thing that almost every hit, even most air BKs lead to her ultra.
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On January 05 2013 10:54 Shikyo wrote:
Hmmm...
I guess one could play UMVC3 and try to block Viper mixups there, and after they can do that SF4 Viper should pose no problems.
Though to be honest it's probably just the thing that off a blocked jumpin Viper gets an additional 50/50 burnkick mixup that other characters don't get, and with proper jumps she can also choose to hit the front or the back and it's quite ambiguous. There's also the thing that almost every hit, even most air BKs lead to her ultra.
She doesnt get a free 50/50 burnkick mixup off of a blocked jumpin, if she cancels the air normal into an air burnkick that is react-punishable with practice. You block the jumpin, see that she hasnt come down to the ground at the normal time and do something that will make the burnkick then whiff, alternatively just mash uppercut/similar and it will autocorrect properly depending on whether she stays in front with the burnkick or not, punishing both possible burnkicks in that situation.
Her jumpins are rarely ambiguous unless its a specific setup, most people just expect crossup roundhouse far too much when it will rarely be crossup and situations it is are often done via setups which are learnable.
If she hits you on the ground with a burnkick she cant go into ultra unless 1) Youre in the corner or 2) A very specific weird situation that ive only used once where you hit the opponent JUST in front of the person in a perfect way and you+them thus fly in the same direction, you can land and ultra outside of the corner. Its really, really situation specific.
Every hit can theoretically go into ultra but really anything other than landing a fierce (in terms of normals), which have 9/8 frame startups for standing/crouching respectively, will rarely go into ultra. Its all well and good being able to bnb sjc ultra but in reality its just very rarely used.
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On January 05 2013 11:36 YulyaVolkova wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 10:54 Shikyo wrote:
Hmmm...
I guess one could play UMVC3 and try to block Viper mixups there, and after they can do that SF4 Viper should pose no problems.
Though to be honest it's probably just the thing that off a blocked jumpin Viper gets an additional 50/50 burnkick mixup that other characters don't get, and with proper jumps she can also choose to hit the front or the back and it's quite ambiguous. There's also the thing that almost every hit, even most air BKs lead to her ultra. She doesnt get a free 50/50 burnkick mixup off of a blocked jumpin, if she cancels the air normal into an air burnkick that is react-punishable with practice. You block the jumpin, see that she hasnt come down to the ground at the normal time and do something that will make the burnkick then whiff, alternatively just mash uppercut/similar and it will autocorrect properly depending on whether she stays in front with the burnkick or not, punishing both possible burnkicks in that situation. Her jumpins are rarely ambiguous unless its a specific setup, most people just expect crossup roundhouse far too much when it will rarely be crossup and situations it is are often done via setups which are learnable. If she hits you on the ground with a burnkick she cant go into ultra unless 1) Youre in the corner or 2) A very specific weird situation that ive only used once where you hit the opponent JUST in front of the person in a perfect way and you+them thus fly in the same direction, you can land and ultra outside of the corner. Its really, really situation specific. Every hit can theoretically go into ultra but really anything other than landing a fierce (in terms of normals), which have 9/8 frame startups for standing/crouching respectively, will rarely go into ultra. Its all well and good being able to bnb sjc ultra but in reality its just very rarely used.
Let's boil this down. Tell me C.Viper's flaws and some anti-viper tech (ie. When to punish unsafe things she does which look safe) What am I looking for.
In exchange I'll be amazed at your knowledge (100% genuine) and take it and punish some auto-pilot viper players.
(I used to believe C.Viper with meter + ultra = win and learned how to do that immensely satisfying SJC Ultra combo, but show me the light.)
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On January 06 2013 07:58 rwrzr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2013 11:36 YulyaVolkova wrote:On January 05 2013 10:54 Shikyo wrote:
Hmmm...
I guess one could play UMVC3 and try to block Viper mixups there, and after they can do that SF4 Viper should pose no problems.
Though to be honest it's probably just the thing that off a blocked jumpin Viper gets an additional 50/50 burnkick mixup that other characters don't get, and with proper jumps she can also choose to hit the front or the back and it's quite ambiguous. There's also the thing that almost every hit, even most air BKs lead to her ultra. She doesnt get a free 50/50 burnkick mixup off of a blocked jumpin, if she cancels the air normal into an air burnkick that is react-punishable with practice. You block the jumpin, see that she hasnt come down to the ground at the normal time and do something that will make the burnkick then whiff, alternatively just mash uppercut/similar and it will autocorrect properly depending on whether she stays in front with the burnkick or not, punishing both possible burnkicks in that situation. Her jumpins are rarely ambiguous unless its a specific setup, most people just expect crossup roundhouse far too much when it will rarely be crossup and situations it is are often done via setups which are learnable. If she hits you on the ground with a burnkick she cant go into ultra unless 1) Youre in the corner or 2) A very specific weird situation that ive only used once where you hit the opponent JUST in front of the person in a perfect way and you+them thus fly in the same direction, you can land and ultra outside of the corner. Its really, really situation specific. Every hit can theoretically go into ultra but really anything other than landing a fierce (in terms of normals), which have 9/8 frame startups for standing/crouching respectively, will rarely go into ultra. Its all well and good being able to bnb sjc ultra but in reality its just very rarely used. Let's boil this down. Tell me C.Viper's flaws and some anti-viper tech (ie. When to punish unsafe things she does which look safe) What am I looking for. In exchange I'll be amazed at your knowledge (100% genuine) and take it and punish some auto-pilot viper players. (I used to believe C.Viper with meter + ultra = win and learned how to do that immensely satisfying SJC Ultra combo, but show me the light.)
Nothing too special really, just stuff that people havnt really started to actually learn/use until recently.
-Dont let her random midscreen burnkick at you, learn to react do something that makes it whiff like ryus low forward or similar then punish. Its very doable. If she makes you block a low forward or something and she goes into a feint, watch for burnkick, make it whiff, punish etc. Doesnt require inhuman reacts, works insanely well. My friend who barely plays street fighter or any fighting games at all (hes okay though) learnt to do this within like 10 minutes once I told him to try it.
-If youre forced to block a burnkick, block it standing. Standing block burnkick = viper is at best slightly + and very often neutral/minus. Crouch block burnkick = viper will likely be considerably + and any button presses by you after the burnkick will get counterhit a hell of alot. The % of the time my stand strong->crouch strong counterhits after someone blocks a burnkick crouching is insane.
-You block a medium thunderknuckle - you have frame advantage. Viper gets to continue pressure after making people block one of these far too much. Shes -1 at best iirc and her useful normals are 5 frame startup at best. Start your own pressure instead of blocking the medium thunderknuckle then 'guessing' what shes going to do next.
-If you get hit by a medium thunderknuckle, youre minus. Dont press buttons or she can just crouch strong->medium thunderknuckle loop forever because its a pretty solid frametrap.
-Learn to play vs seismos, abuse focus. Focus->dash forward to gain space any time you see the seismo flash is pretty legit and needs good reads by the viper to counter. Mix up other stuff in there like neutral jumps, focus backdashes occasionally. Dont let her seismo chain you, if you block a seismo, focus in the gap before the next potential one and youre out for free unless the viper guesses right (she could do a third seismo to catch focus absorb->backdash, focus absorb->forwarddash or focus absorb->hold it and each will prob require a different seismo). You should rarely be forced to block a regular seismo.
-Watch for yellow flash at all times, yellow flash as viper = EX seismo, pretty much no other reason to EX other than some stuff you cant react to/dont need to watch for like wakeup EX burnkicks.
-If youre back is against the corner (or close to it), be uber paranoid about ultra, especially if you have a reasonable life lead. Shes probably looking for it, expect options that can go into it. Ie a standard close range situation will probably be fierce thunderknuckle->fadc->ultra if she has 2 bars, dont expect throw. Once youre out of the corner her ultra options drop significantly, keep an eye out for the EX seismo yellow flashes when shes semi close to you.
-Oh, dont jump when she has ultra. Like, at all. I win an insane number of games where im 20% vs 50% and they just randomly jump in and I trade ultra.
-Dont panic if you do get hit by 2-3 burnkicks in a row, it doesnt mean youre going to get hit by another 7-10 and die, most people go batshit if they get hit a couple of times, mash dp eat FFF then lose the round. Burnkicks do fuck all damage.
-Specific tech, you can do crouch tech with a move that lowers your hitbox on your wakeup if shes close to you and youll duck under all burnkicks and tech if she meaty throws. Like ryu jab+short+forward, timed pretty much as soon as you wake up. Lots of vipers do allllllot of burnkicks on wakeup, this will basically kill them for doing so.
-OS to catch backdash alot wherever you can, she will backdash alot as its her best defensive option. Id say it used to be EX seismo as it was throw invincible, and fierce thunderknuckle is kinda ass in many ways and obviously insanely risky. She'll backdash alot, dont let her.
-Her normals are slow+have pretty bad hitboxes, which means her crouch tech OS's are always pretty bad. Susceptible to throw/frametrap game more than lots of other chars.
Thats all I can really think of right now, will edit in more stuff if I think of some. None of it is really incredibly complicated. Some of it definitely needs some training room practice to get a feel for the timing of say the normals to make burnkick whiff etc but its not too tricky.
Oh last bit of advice, dont play against Viper with a shitty connection. If the Viper can play with delay reasonably well (I cant, totally fall apart with any delay), lots of burnkicks and shit become pretty much unblockable on reaction so its rather retarded. Most of the time im pretty good at defending against burnkicks in viper vs viper but if we're playing with blatant delay I cant block anything.
-One more thing ive just thought of. Most people consider her normals into feint as a 'mixup' and that its really confusing etc. Just train yourself to read nothing into it. If she does low forward into feint the only reason shes doing it really as opposed to just raw low forward is because its putting her in a frame advantage situation many other chars would be in for doing just a raw low forward. She has to execute a special move after every normal (or at least normal at the end of a string) and hit the 2 frame feint window just to end with the frame advantage many other characters would have by default just for doing the normal. I think lots of people see all the feints during pressure and let it get to them when really you should just remove all significance of them from your mind and almost just think of it as being part of the normals regular animation.
-Can do option selects that block fierce tk (or make it whiff), stuff the non invincible part of EX seismo and catch backdashes on vipers wakeup. Something like a meaty crouch short that goes into another crouch short if it connects, does nothing for a time on whiff, makes fierce tk go above it, and if the second crouch short doesnt come out your next OS does come out which is a move timed to beat the non-invincibility phase of EX seismo and at the same time catch backdash. Fun times. The Japanese use it a fair bit in my experience, even quite a while ago.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Viper was a demon for me until my defense improved significantly, and I'm playing a character with excellent tools against her. until i could c.mk under burnkicks and, as the poster above said, learned where she is at a frame disadvantage to bust out the c.lp c.mk xx shou, i was pretty free to viper. once i was at the level where those decisions were automatic, it flipped completely. now a Viper has to work really hard to open my Sakura and i actually FEEL the advantage i have on paper in that matchup
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On January 06 2013 09:46 YulyaVolkova wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 07:58 rwrzr wrote:On January 05 2013 11:36 YulyaVolkova wrote:On January 05 2013 10:54 Shikyo wrote:
Hmmm...
I guess one could play UMVC3 and try to block Viper mixups there, and after they can do that SF4 Viper should pose no problems.
Though to be honest it's probably just the thing that off a blocked jumpin Viper gets an additional 50/50 burnkick mixup that other characters don't get, and with proper jumps she can also choose to hit the front or the back and it's quite ambiguous. There's also the thing that almost every hit, even most air BKs lead to her ultra. She doesnt get a free 50/50 burnkick mixup off of a blocked jumpin, if she cancels the air normal into an air burnkick that is react-punishable with practice. You block the jumpin, see that she hasnt come down to the ground at the normal time and do something that will make the burnkick then whiff, alternatively just mash uppercut/similar and it will autocorrect properly depending on whether she stays in front with the burnkick or not, punishing both possible burnkicks in that situation. Her jumpins are rarely ambiguous unless its a specific setup, most people just expect crossup roundhouse far too much when it will rarely be crossup and situations it is are often done via setups which are learnable. If she hits you on the ground with a burnkick she cant go into ultra unless 1) Youre in the corner or 2) A very specific weird situation that ive only used once where you hit the opponent JUST in front of the person in a perfect way and you+them thus fly in the same direction, you can land and ultra outside of the corner. Its really, really situation specific. Every hit can theoretically go into ultra but really anything other than landing a fierce (in terms of normals), which have 9/8 frame startups for standing/crouching respectively, will rarely go into ultra. Its all well and good being able to bnb sjc ultra but in reality its just very rarely used. Let's boil this down. Tell me C.Viper's flaws and some anti-viper tech (ie. When to punish unsafe things she does which look safe) What am I looking for. In exchange I'll be amazed at your knowledge (100% genuine) and take it and punish some auto-pilot viper players. (I used to believe C.Viper with meter + ultra = win and learned how to do that immensely satisfying SJC Ultra combo, but show me the light.) Nothing too special really, just stuff that people havnt really started to actually learn/use until recently. -Dont let her random midscreen burnkick at you, learn to react do something that makes it whiff like ryus low forward or similar then punish. Its very doable. If she makes you block a low forward or something and she goes into a feint, watch for burnkick, make it whiff, punish etc. Doesnt require inhuman reacts, works insanely well. My friend who barely plays street fighter or any fighting games at all (hes okay though) learnt to do this within like 10 minutes once I told him to try it. -If youre forced to block a burnkick, block it standing. Standing block burnkick = viper is at best slightly + and very often neutral/minus. Crouch block burnkick = viper will likely be considerably + and any button presses by you after the burnkick will get counterhit a hell of alot. The % of the time my stand strong->crouch strong counterhits after someone blocks a burnkick crouching is insane. -You block a medium thunderknuckle - you have frame advantage. Viper gets to continue pressure after making people block one of these far too much. Shes -1 at best iirc and her useful normals are 5 frame startup at best. Start your own pressure instead of blocking the medium thunderknuckle then 'guessing' what shes going to do next. -If you get hit by a medium thunderknuckle, youre minus. Dont press buttons or she can just crouch strong->medium thunderknuckle loop forever because its a pretty solid frametrap. -Learn to play vs seismos, abuse focus. Focus->dash forward to gain space any time you see the seismo flash is pretty legit and needs good reads by the viper to counter. Mix up other stuff in there like neutral jumps, focus backdashes occasionally. Dont let her seismo chain you, if you block a seismo, focus in the gap before the next potential one and youre out for free unless the viper guesses right (she could do a third seismo to catch focus absorb->backdash, focus absorb->forwarddash or focus absorb->hold it and each will prob require a different seismo). You should rarely be forced to block a regular seismo. -Watch for yellow flash at all times, yellow flash as viper = EX seismo, pretty much no other reason to EX other than some stuff you cant react to/dont need to watch for like wakeup EX burnkicks. -If youre back is against the corner (or close to it), be uber paranoid about ultra, especially if you have a reasonable life lead. Shes probably looking for it, expect options that can go into it. Ie a standard close range situation will probably be fierce thunderknuckle->fadc->ultra if she has 2 bars, dont expect throw. Once youre out of the corner her ultra options drop significantly, keep an eye out for the EX seismo yellow flashes when shes semi close to you. -Oh, dont jump when she has ultra. Like, at all. I win an insane number of games where im 20% vs 50% and they just randomly jump in and I trade ultra. -Dont panic if you do get hit by 2-3 burnkicks in a row, it doesnt mean youre going to get hit by another 7-10 and die, most people go batshit if they get hit a couple of times, mash dp eat FFF then lose the round. Burnkicks do fuck all damage. -Specific tech, you can do crouch tech with a move that lowers your hitbox on your wakeup if shes close to you and youll duck under all burnkicks and tech if she meaty throws. Like ryu jab+short+forward, timed pretty much as soon as you wake up. Lots of vipers do allllllot of burnkicks on wakeup, this will basically kill them for doing so. -OS to catch backdash alot wherever you can, she will backdash alot as its her best defensive option. Id say it used to be EX seismo as it was throw invincible, and fierce thunderknuckle is kinda ass in many ways and obviously insanely risky. She'll backdash alot, dont let her. -Her normals are slow+have pretty bad hitboxes, which means her crouch tech OS's are always pretty bad. Susceptible to throw/frametrap game more than lots of other chars. Thats all I can really think of right now, will edit in more stuff if I think of some. None of it is really incredibly complicated. Some of it definitely needs some training room practice to get a feel for the timing of say the normals to make burnkick whiff etc but its not too tricky. Oh last bit of advice, dont play against Viper with a shitty connection. If the Viper can play with delay reasonably well (I cant, totally fall apart with any delay), lots of burnkicks and shit become pretty much unblockable on reaction so its rather retarded. Most of the time im pretty good at defending against burnkicks in viper vs viper but if we're playing with blatant delay I cant block anything. -One more thing ive just thought of. Most people consider her normals into feint as a 'mixup' and that its really confusing etc. Just train yourself to read nothing into it. If she does low forward into feint the only reason shes doing it really as opposed to just raw low forward is because its putting her in a frame advantage situation many other chars would be in for doing just a raw low forward. She has to execute a special move after every normal (or at least normal at the end of a string) and hit the 2 frame feint window just to end with the frame advantage many other characters would have by default just for doing the normal. I think lots of people see all the feints during pressure and let it get to them when really you should just remove all significance of them from your mind and almost just think of it as being part of the normals regular animation. -Can do option selects that block fierce tk (or make it whiff), stuff the non invincible part of EX seismo and catch backdashes on vipers wakeup. Something like a meaty crouch short that goes into another crouch short if it connects, does nothing for a time on whiff, makes fierce tk go above it, and if the second crouch short doesnt come out your next OS does come out which is a move timed to beat the non-invincibility phase of EX seismo and at the same time catch backdash. Fun times. The Japanese use it a fair bit in my experience, even quite a while ago.
Thanks for the writeup. You should consider posting it into the SRK forums. :D
Forgot to add that FakeSteve is our resident Sakura and Cammy player. If you want anything information regarding those two characters he is pretty awesome at helping when he isn't play league of legends and killing puppies.
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On January 07 2013 03:25 rwrzr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2013 09:46 YulyaVolkova wrote:On January 06 2013 07:58 rwrzr wrote:On January 05 2013 11:36 YulyaVolkova wrote:On January 05 2013 10:54 Shikyo wrote:
Hmmm...
I guess one could play UMVC3 and try to block Viper mixups there, and after they can do that SF4 Viper should pose no problems.
Though to be honest it's probably just the thing that off a blocked jumpin Viper gets an additional 50/50 burnkick mixup that other characters don't get, and with proper jumps she can also choose to hit the front or the back and it's quite ambiguous. There's also the thing that almost every hit, even most air BKs lead to her ultra. She doesnt get a free 50/50 burnkick mixup off of a blocked jumpin, if she cancels the air normal into an air burnkick that is react-punishable with practice. You block the jumpin, see that she hasnt come down to the ground at the normal time and do something that will make the burnkick then whiff, alternatively just mash uppercut/similar and it will autocorrect properly depending on whether she stays in front with the burnkick or not, punishing both possible burnkicks in that situation. Her jumpins are rarely ambiguous unless its a specific setup, most people just expect crossup roundhouse far too much when it will rarely be crossup and situations it is are often done via setups which are learnable. If she hits you on the ground with a burnkick she cant go into ultra unless 1) Youre in the corner or 2) A very specific weird situation that ive only used once where you hit the opponent JUST in front of the person in a perfect way and you+them thus fly in the same direction, you can land and ultra outside of the corner. Its really, really situation specific. Every hit can theoretically go into ultra but really anything other than landing a fierce (in terms of normals), which have 9/8 frame startups for standing/crouching respectively, will rarely go into ultra. Its all well and good being able to bnb sjc ultra but in reality its just very rarely used. Let's boil this down. Tell me C.Viper's flaws and some anti-viper tech (ie. When to punish unsafe things she does which look safe) What am I looking for. In exchange I'll be amazed at your knowledge (100% genuine) and take it and punish some auto-pilot viper players. (I used to believe C.Viper with meter + ultra = win and learned how to do that immensely satisfying SJC Ultra combo, but show me the light.) Nothing too special really, just stuff that people havnt really started to actually learn/use until recently. -Dont let her random midscreen burnkick at you, learn to react do something that makes it whiff like ryus low forward or similar then punish. Its very doable. If she makes you block a low forward or something and she goes into a feint, watch for burnkick, make it whiff, punish etc. Doesnt require inhuman reacts, works insanely well. My friend who barely plays street fighter or any fighting games at all (hes okay though) learnt to do this within like 10 minutes once I told him to try it. -If youre forced to block a burnkick, block it standing. Standing block burnkick = viper is at best slightly + and very often neutral/minus. Crouch block burnkick = viper will likely be considerably + and any button presses by you after the burnkick will get counterhit a hell of alot. The % of the time my stand strong->crouch strong counterhits after someone blocks a burnkick crouching is insane. -You block a medium thunderknuckle - you have frame advantage. Viper gets to continue pressure after making people block one of these far too much. Shes -1 at best iirc and her useful normals are 5 frame startup at best. Start your own pressure instead of blocking the medium thunderknuckle then 'guessing' what shes going to do next. -If you get hit by a medium thunderknuckle, youre minus. Dont press buttons or she can just crouch strong->medium thunderknuckle loop forever because its a pretty solid frametrap. -Learn to play vs seismos, abuse focus. Focus->dash forward to gain space any time you see the seismo flash is pretty legit and needs good reads by the viper to counter. Mix up other stuff in there like neutral jumps, focus backdashes occasionally. Dont let her seismo chain you, if you block a seismo, focus in the gap before the next potential one and youre out for free unless the viper guesses right (she could do a third seismo to catch focus absorb->backdash, focus absorb->forwarddash or focus absorb->hold it and each will prob require a different seismo). You should rarely be forced to block a regular seismo. -Watch for yellow flash at all times, yellow flash as viper = EX seismo, pretty much no other reason to EX other than some stuff you cant react to/dont need to watch for like wakeup EX burnkicks. -If youre back is against the corner (or close to it), be uber paranoid about ultra, especially if you have a reasonable life lead. Shes probably looking for it, expect options that can go into it. Ie a standard close range situation will probably be fierce thunderknuckle->fadc->ultra if she has 2 bars, dont expect throw. Once youre out of the corner her ultra options drop significantly, keep an eye out for the EX seismo yellow flashes when shes semi close to you. -Oh, dont jump when she has ultra. Like, at all. I win an insane number of games where im 20% vs 50% and they just randomly jump in and I trade ultra. -Dont panic if you do get hit by 2-3 burnkicks in a row, it doesnt mean youre going to get hit by another 7-10 and die, most people go batshit if they get hit a couple of times, mash dp eat FFF then lose the round. Burnkicks do fuck all damage. -Specific tech, you can do crouch tech with a move that lowers your hitbox on your wakeup if shes close to you and youll duck under all burnkicks and tech if she meaty throws. Like ryu jab+short+forward, timed pretty much as soon as you wake up. Lots of vipers do allllllot of burnkicks on wakeup, this will basically kill them for doing so. -OS to catch backdash alot wherever you can, she will backdash alot as its her best defensive option. Id say it used to be EX seismo as it was throw invincible, and fierce thunderknuckle is kinda ass in many ways and obviously insanely risky. She'll backdash alot, dont let her. -Her normals are slow+have pretty bad hitboxes, which means her crouch tech OS's are always pretty bad. Susceptible to throw/frametrap game more than lots of other chars. Thats all I can really think of right now, will edit in more stuff if I think of some. None of it is really incredibly complicated. Some of it definitely needs some training room practice to get a feel for the timing of say the normals to make burnkick whiff etc but its not too tricky. Oh last bit of advice, dont play against Viper with a shitty connection. If the Viper can play with delay reasonably well (I cant, totally fall apart with any delay), lots of burnkicks and shit become pretty much unblockable on reaction so its rather retarded. Most of the time im pretty good at defending against burnkicks in viper vs viper but if we're playing with blatant delay I cant block anything. -One more thing ive just thought of. Most people consider her normals into feint as a 'mixup' and that its really confusing etc. Just train yourself to read nothing into it. If she does low forward into feint the only reason shes doing it really as opposed to just raw low forward is because its putting her in a frame advantage situation many other chars would be in for doing just a raw low forward. She has to execute a special move after every normal (or at least normal at the end of a string) and hit the 2 frame feint window just to end with the frame advantage many other characters would have by default just for doing the normal. I think lots of people see all the feints during pressure and let it get to them when really you should just remove all significance of them from your mind and almost just think of it as being part of the normals regular animation. -Can do option selects that block fierce tk (or make it whiff), stuff the non invincible part of EX seismo and catch backdashes on vipers wakeup. Something like a meaty crouch short that goes into another crouch short if it connects, does nothing for a time on whiff, makes fierce tk go above it, and if the second crouch short doesnt come out your next OS does come out which is a move timed to beat the non-invincibility phase of EX seismo and at the same time catch backdash. Fun times. The Japanese use it a fair bit in my experience, even quite a while ago. Thanks for the writeup. You should consider posting it into the SRK forums. :D Forgot to add that FakeSteve is our resident Sakura and Cammy player. If you want anything information regarding those two characters he is pretty awesome at helping when he isn't play league of legends and killing puppies.
Ive lurked TL since about 2003-2004, I most definitely know of Fakesteve :D. Starcraft is my old passion, SF hopped into my life about mid last year, love it. Ive tried picking up some Sakura because of some posts made by Steve in this thread, much respect to him :o).
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Yeah what characters do all of you play? theres a few Sakuras here isnt there
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I play Yun as my main. Balrog and Cody are my subs.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Oh nice! I got me a little pocket Yun. I got sick execution with him but nothin else, my neutral game is ass
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I drop tatsu loops too much to play Sakura.
What currently entertains me is tiger knee EX.Cannon Spike for some reason doing a dive kick that low to the ground is amusing.
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On January 06 2013 12:00 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Viper was a demon for me until my defense improved significantly, and I'm playing a character with excellent tools against her. until i could c.mk under burnkicks and, as the poster above said, learned where she is at a frame disadvantage to bust out the c.lp c.mk xx shou, i was pretty free to viper. once i was at the level where those decisions were automatic, it flipped completely. now a Viper has to work really hard to open my Sakura and i actually FEEL the advantage i have on paper in that matchup
Huh? I dont think sak has advantage on paper vs viper. If so, pretty much every shoto has which I dont think is true. You are probably playing against vipers who cant zone properly (actually probably only a handful of vipers in the whole world can zone properly). Saks distance game is pretty whack imo, her fireballs are laughable and her air tatsu seems slower than other shotos. If Viper zones correctly and makes sak come to her she should have the advantage imo. Up close sak wins ofc, but who doesnt against viper. MU should be a 5:5.
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On January 07 2013 09:47 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Yeah what characters do all of you play? theres a few Sakuras here isnt there
Oni. Less: Akuma, Gouken, Hawk/Gief. Long term I would love to learn Viper, but I haven't put in the work yet since my execution is still pretty poor. I'm ass at the game still, but always looking for a challenge and criticism. Best way to learn, imo.
I was considering picking up a new char for fun, just for extra practice, with Cammy and Sakura being top options. They wouldn't really be serious, but just something to broaden my horizons. I feel like learning new characters helps erase some bad habits I have with others, in a way. Takes me out of the auto-pilot mindset. Sakura would be a smart choice if I go dig up some of your older, lengthier posts about her.
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Main: Balrog
Previous mains: Gen, Gouken, Dhalsim
Pockets: Rose, Vega
To add a little to the discussion about C. Viper I think many people don't fully understand the match-up yet. This includes some viper players, too. Often it is lack of information which causes people to lose to Viper. If people don't know which of Vipers moves are safe Viper players will end up abusing that. Once I started understanding some mechanics of the match-up I could easily beat players I had previously been hopeless against. So what I think is happening is that people are so free to Viper that a Viper player can a lot of the time abuse unsafe stuff without getting punished for it. That's what makes Viper seem overpowered to some, but at the same time prevents her from dominating tournaments.
The write-up by YulyaVolkova is really helpful for me. I didn't know that burn kick yields different frame advantage depending on if it hits standing or crouching characters for example.
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On January 08 2013 01:47 ain wrote:
Main: Balrog
Previous mains: Gen, Gouken, Dhalsim
Pockets: Rose, Vega
To add a little to the discussion about C. Viper I think many people don't fully understand the match-up yet. This includes some viper players, too. Often it is lack of information which causes people to lose to Viper. If people don't know which of Vipers moves are safe Viper players will end up abusing that. Once I started understanding some mechanics of the match-up I could easily beat players I had previously been hopeless against. So what I think is happening is that people are so free to Viper that a Viper player can a lot of the time abuse unsafe stuff without getting punished for it. That's what makes Viper seem overpowered to some, but at the same time prevents her from dominating tournaments.
The write-up by YulyaVolkova is really helpful for me. I didn't know that burn kick yields different frame advantage depending on if it hits standing or crouching characters for example.
Oh ain, youre on my friend list on PC :o). Im nysashchasam there, think we played a set or two a bit ago?
And yeah I agree, most of the time viper just gets away with lots of stuff she really shouldn't. It actually makes Viper players develop/keep pretty bad habits that get exploited when playing people that actually know what theyre doing. I know my autopilot has loads of holes in it and certain players just seem to jab me out of my own nowhere-near airtight pressure because they actually know where they can.
As far as chars go I main Viper, mained Ryu+Balrog for a bit in the first few months of playing the game and I have loads of other characters I can execute all kinds of stuff on but have absolutely no sense of how to play the neutral game/apply pressure etc. Im still pretty horrible at the game overall and probably gets lots of my wins off of Viper+decent execution. My footsies+pattern recognition/reading ability are both reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally bad.
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I'm going back to 360 and i'm shopping for a new stick or part that will let me use my PS3 stick on 360. So far the two sticks I've been looking at the Qanba and the Omni. Right now the Omni is sold out and will be for sometime so I'm not sure if it's worth waiting for. If anyone has used either of the two sticks or a good controller converter adapter and can help me decide I would appreciate it.
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Don't really play this game much anymore, mainly just mvc, but I used to main Dictator and Rose, but I'll play fei, ken, akuma or boxer every once in a while.
I'll probably be at big two this weds, unless something happens, so if anyone is going and like to meetup let me know.
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On January 08 2013 04:26 Kingkosi wrote:I'm going back to 360 and i'm shopping for a new stick or part that will let me use my PS3 stick on 360. So far the two sticks I've been looking at the Qanba and the Omni. Right now the Omni is sold out and will be for sometime so I'm not sure if it's worth waiting for. If anyone has used either of the two sticks or a good controller converter adapter and can help me decide I would appreciate it.
Im using a Qanba and its the best stick I have ever used. Had a TE before and have played on a hrap. Pretty much all my friends who have played on my Qanba shared the sentiment - its a great stick. I have never pressed start accidentally once in my life and have no clue how one would manage to do that. Why is it better than a TE imo? It has a felted bottom which means its not cold as fuck on your lap like the metal bottom of most sticks when you start playing. It has a nice carrying handle, the start on the front is really convenient and the cable comes out at the side and not at the back which I prefer, because a cable between your legs tends to tangle and irritate potentially more than a cable going sideways. Dont wait for Omni, I cant even think of in what terms it could be better than the Qanba.
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EPT
