On January 02 2013 04:45 rwrzr wrote: Doing God's work. Back to the front.
So much mindgames!
That was a really entertaining match.
That salty commentary about Viper is too good. Banana Ken does a good job making the matchup look pretty even if you do your homework.
The amount of shit the commentators said about viper that is just flat out wrong was amusing :p. 4 frame uppercut, I wish! Crouch strong->EX seismo, fuck that would be nice if that was doable non-counterhit!
Match was pretty sick tho, krone dropped alot of stuff which was sadface.
I'll be honest Krone looked off his game, but to be fair Ken had some pretty big drops as well.
C.Viper gets a lot of hate because she is still fairly unknown. Unless you play a lot against one or learn the character. The constant cancelling and 'mixups' related to the cancels seem pretty overwhelming.
It seems as if Viper is always pressing buttons and doing something random for big damage.
That salty commentary about Viper is too good. Banana Ken does a good job making the matchup look pretty even if you do your homework.
The amount of shit the commentators said about viper that is just flat out wrong was amusing :p. 4 frame uppercut, I wish! Crouch strong->EX seismo, fuck that would be nice if that was doable non-counterhit!
Match was pretty sick tho, krone dropped alot of stuff which was sadface.
I'll be honest Krone looked off his game, but to be fair Ken had some pretty big drops as well.
C.Viper gets a lot of hate because she is still fairly unknown. Unless you play a lot against one or learn the character. The constant cancelling and 'mixups' related to the cancels seem pretty overwhelming.
It seems as if Viper is always pressing buttons and doing something random for big damage.
Yeah BananaKen dropped some stuff too for sure.
I agree on the point about viper being fairly unknown, been thinking alot about that general idea for a while. Some things seem to have been falling into place in top player vs viper matchups lately that ive been expecting for a while. Krone has a really good record vs Mago+Momochi but then at the 25th anniversary finals got blown up fairly badly by both of them. I don't think he was playing great but just purely from watching Mago/Momochis play, you can tell it looks totally different to say a year ago at Canada Cup. Burnkicks seem to be literally almost not doable anymore, or at the very least they now have to be done 100% expecting the opponent to do something that will get hit by it, because everytime the opponent is doing nothing at the moment a burnkick comes its low forward/similar dodge into punish. Kinda puts a very large cramp into vipers game. If she doesn't have burnkicks at her disposal shes largely left with a set of not very good normals and seismos which are great, but very baitable in many ways which Mago+Momochi also showed improvements in.
Burnkick 'vortex' on your wakeup is also hugely nerfed now that people are dodging them properly. Low forward crouch tech on wakeup now beats burnkick+throw whereas the whole point of the vortex before was viper can throw you if you predict burnkick and do nothing, but if you attempt to tech burnkick will hit. Now I guess itll switch to something like burnkick or throw against meatyish crouchfierce/standstrongs to catch the lowforward tech wakeups. Shrug.
I kinda feel like the Japanese were maybe just there first (arent they always) in rating Viper as a good, but not top tier character. Think shes been considered to be in the top middlish part of the cast for a while by most top players in Japan. Maybe they just learnt the matchup much faster and once you 'get' burnkicks, its much harder for Viper to win. We'll see!
Edit: Oh and also if you play Viper youre probably going to give your opponent at least 1 free max damage punish every game (bo3 rounds) due to some random missed feint or seismo chain or ultra juggle etc. Even Latif drops stuff pretty damn often. Wolfkrone drops stuff allllloooooooooooooooooot. Its very hard to get everything you want executionally as Viper while thinking about any other aspect of the game pretty much at all.
That salty commentary about Viper is too good. Banana Ken does a good job making the matchup look pretty even if you do your homework.
The amount of shit the commentators said about viper that is just flat out wrong was amusing :p. 4 frame uppercut, I wish! Crouch strong->EX seismo, fuck that would be nice if that was doable non-counterhit!
Match was pretty sick tho, krone dropped alot of stuff which was sadface.
I'll be honest Krone looked off his game, but to be fair Ken had some pretty big drops as well.
C.Viper gets a lot of hate because she is still fairly unknown. Unless you play a lot against one or learn the character. The constant cancelling and 'mixups' related to the cancels seem pretty overwhelming.
It seems as if Viper is always pressing buttons and doing something random for big damage.
Yeah BananaKen dropped some stuff too for sure.
I agree on the point about viper being fairly unknown, been thinking alot about that general idea for a while. Some things seem to have been falling into place in top player vs viper matchups lately that ive been expecting for a while. Krone has a really good record vs Mago+Momochi but then at the 25th anniversary finals got blown up fairly badly by both of them. I don't think he was playing great but just purely from watching Mago/Momochis play, you can tell it looks totally different to say a year ago at Canada Cup. Burnkicks seem to be literally almost not doable anymore, or at the very least they now have to be done 100% expecting the opponent to do something that will get hit by it, because everytime the opponent is doing nothing at the moment a burnkick comes its low forward/similar dodge into punish. Kinda puts a very large cramp into vipers game. If she doesn't have burnkicks at her disposal shes largely left with a set of not very good normals and seismos which are great, but very baitable in many ways which Mago+Momochi also showed improvements in.
Burnkick 'vortex' on your wakeup is also hugely nerfed now that people are dodging them properly. Low forward crouch tech on wakeup now beats burnkick+throw whereas the whole point of the vortex before was viper can throw you if you predict burnkick and do nothing, but if you attempt to tech burnkick will hit. Now I guess itll switch to something like burnkick or throw against meatyish crouchfierce/standstrongs to catch the lowforward tech wakeups. Shrug.
I kinda feel like the Japanese were maybe just there first (arent they always) in rating Viper as a good, but not top tier character. Think shes been considered to be in the top middlish part of the cast for a while by most top players in Japan. Maybe they just learnt the matchup much faster and once you 'get' burnkicks, its much harder for Viper to win. We'll see!
Edit: Oh and also if you play Viper youre probably going to give your opponent at least 1 free max damage punish every game (bo3 rounds) due to some random missed feint or seismo chain or ultra juggle etc. Even Latif drops stuff pretty damn often. Wolfkrone drops stuff allllloooooooooooooooooot. Its very hard to get everything you want executionally as Viper while thinking about any other aspect of the game pretty much at all.
IMO have a Pocket Cammy.
Blow their mind with divekick after they spent so much effort on burnkicks.
That salty commentary about Viper is too good. Banana Ken does a good job making the matchup look pretty even if you do your homework.
The amount of shit the commentators said about viper that is just flat out wrong was amusing :p. 4 frame uppercut, I wish! Crouch strong->EX seismo, fuck that would be nice if that was doable non-counterhit!
Match was pretty sick tho, krone dropped alot of stuff which was sadface.
I'll be honest Krone looked off his game, but to be fair Ken had some pretty big drops as well.
C.Viper gets a lot of hate because she is still fairly unknown. Unless you play a lot against one or learn the character. The constant cancelling and 'mixups' related to the cancels seem pretty overwhelming.
It seems as if Viper is always pressing buttons and doing something random for big damage.
Yeah BananaKen dropped some stuff too for sure.
I agree on the point about viper being fairly unknown, been thinking alot about that general idea for a while. Some things seem to have been falling into place in top player vs viper matchups lately that ive been expecting for a while. Krone has a really good record vs Mago+Momochi but then at the 25th anniversary finals got blown up fairly badly by both of them. I don't think he was playing great but just purely from watching Mago/Momochis play, you can tell it looks totally different to say a year ago at Canada Cup. Burnkicks seem to be literally almost not doable anymore, or at the very least they now have to be done 100% expecting the opponent to do something that will get hit by it, because everytime the opponent is doing nothing at the moment a burnkick comes its low forward/similar dodge into punish. Kinda puts a very large cramp into vipers game. If she doesn't have burnkicks at her disposal shes largely left with a set of not very good normals and seismos which are great, but very baitable in many ways which Mago+Momochi also showed improvements in.
Burnkick 'vortex' on your wakeup is also hugely nerfed now that people are dodging them properly. Low forward crouch tech on wakeup now beats burnkick+throw whereas the whole point of the vortex before was viper can throw you if you predict burnkick and do nothing, but if you attempt to tech burnkick will hit. Now I guess itll switch to something like burnkick or throw against meatyish crouchfierce/standstrongs to catch the lowforward tech wakeups. Shrug.
I kinda feel like the Japanese were maybe just there first (arent they always) in rating Viper as a good, but not top tier character. Think shes been considered to be in the top middlish part of the cast for a while by most top players in Japan. Maybe they just learnt the matchup much faster and once you 'get' burnkicks, its much harder for Viper to win. We'll see!
Edit: Oh and also if you play Viper youre probably going to give your opponent at least 1 free max damage punish every game (bo3 rounds) due to some random missed feint or seismo chain or ultra juggle etc. Even Latif drops stuff pretty damn often. Wolfkrone drops stuff allllloooooooooooooooooot. Its very hard to get everything you want executionally as Viper while thinking about any other aspect of the game pretty much at all.
IMO have a Pocket Cammy.
Blow their mind with divekick after they spent so much effort on burnkicks.
That salty commentary about Viper is too good. Banana Ken does a good job making the matchup look pretty even if you do your homework.
The amount of shit the commentators said about viper that is just flat out wrong was amusing :p. 4 frame uppercut, I wish! Crouch strong->EX seismo, fuck that would be nice if that was doable non-counterhit!
Match was pretty sick tho, krone dropped alot of stuff which was sadface.
yeah krone drops a lot of stuff on pad as well, but not FFF combos like he did in the match vs Ken. Had to do with him using stick almost certainly. And yeah, Viper is nowhere near top tier anymore, all those ppl still crying about her had better put in the time to learn how to avoid her shit instead of crying imba all that time. If you compare her vortex, footsies, zoning and defensive options to a real top tier like akuma its pretty sad. If capcom releases another update and viper is gonna be changed it better be slight buffs because if they nerf her it would be damn sad. I picked her because she is the biggest challenge in the game (hardest to play) and I would be damn frustrated if she gets nerfed to non-viable status.
Yeah Krone has been learning stick for a long time and has properly switched after the 25th Anniversary tournament methinks.
On January 04 2013 22:32 diehilde wrote: yeah krone drops a lot of stuff on pad as well, but not FFF combos like he did in the match vs Ken. Had to do with him using stick almost certainly. And yeah, Viper is nowhere near top tier anymore, all those ppl still crying about her had better put in the time to learn how to avoid her shit instead of crying imba all that time. If you compare her vortex, footsies, zoning and defensive options to a real top tier like akuma its pretty sad. If capcom releases another update and viper is gonna be changed it better be slight buffs because if they nerf her it would be damn sad. I picked her because she is the biggest challenge in the game (hardest to play) and I would be damn frustrated if she gets nerfed to non-viable status.
Krone does drop alot of FFF on pad in big matches, happened many times during last years Canada Cup team tournament. Even during the OCV of Japan he prob dropped 5-6 FFF over those 5 matches. Will be interesting if he becomes more consistent with everything once hes properly used stick for a while.
Yeah im hoping for slight buffs for Viper if theres another update, not really sure in what area though. Id personally probably like little buffs to her low forward (its hitbox is really weird at times) and maybe make ultra juggles a bit easier/more forgiving. You can only really do the juggles off of anti air tk/exseismo->burnkick and stuff off of what the visuals of the game are telling you and different chars need the ultras activated at different heights because they fall faster/slower. Then you add in some internet delay and its not hard to drop ultras fairly often, which then turns into them getting a free 400-600 damage as its minus like 3 seconds on block/whiff and keeps you right next to them.
Id also prob like the 'bug' of medium knuckle after low forward sometimes just completely whiffing and puttiing you minus like 50 or something fixed. It seems to mostly happen if you counterhit something with your lowforward - the knuckle then just whiffs above their hitstun animation instead of connecting/at least being blocked. So you get punished for correctly counterhittiing someone....sometimes, doesn't seem to happen every time against every character.
As an aside, I have always found the idea of Vipers 'vortex' being up there with Akuma/Ibukis to be quite amusing. Her entire vortex based nature is essentially just that she has burnkick. Take that away and shes got about as much vortex as Ryu, arguably less. Now burnkick is countered to a large degree, but even before it was, burnkick has been massively overrated by the community in my opinion. Does fuck all damage into a techable knockdown that Viper cant use for anything 'setup' like such as safejumps/unblockables/anything. Always autocorrectable if you get the timing down for it. If you died to a crossup burnkick into followup superjump on top of head->short burnkick->repeat 'vortex' then you really should have spent like 3 minutes in training mode learning how to get out of that pretty much immidiately.
Akuma/Ibuki make you guess wrong on your wakeup, you take like 200+ damage into another very usable knockdown.
Dropping shit like sjc ultra or sweep after meterless dash or the occassional error in rapid seismo feinting or seimo chaining is understandable, but dropping FFF is not excusable in high level play imo. Her low forward is ok I think, what really needs improvement is her low short. That thing is disgusting. Punishable by DP on friggin block, 5 frame startup. Just ugh. Make it 4 frame startup and at least -2 on block. Also she needs a true blockstring like low short - standing short or 2x standing short. As of now that shit can be mashed like no tomorrow. If she really wants to compete up there she probably also needs a startup reduction of her Fierce TK by 1 or 2 frames (down from 7 to 6 or 5).
Viper seriously doesn't need any buffs at the moment, there's like 20 characters who need buffs more than her. Her normals need to suck, it's how she is.
About Ibuki, yes her vortex is good, yes she has the easiest unblockables in the game onto like 75% of the cast, but her defense is horrible, one of the worst in the game. Her reversal is also one of the very worst, and her neutral game isn't that great either. She really needs her knockdown game. I don't see a need to nerf her as long as she keeps doing poorly in most tournaments. Zangief has better recent tournament results than Ibuki.
Akuma on the other hand has amazing defense, the best DP in the game, some of the most damaging comboes in the game, the best anti-air ultra ... So for him to have an amazing vortex is probably a bit too much. Still I wouldn't nerf her too much, probably just nerfing that Demon Flip would be enough. Something with the Palm, probably. I wonder if making it focusable would be too much...?
On January 05 2013 01:15 Shikyo wrote: Viper seriously doesn't need any buffs at the moment, there's like 20 characters who need buffs more than her. Her normals need to suck, it's how she is.
About Ibuki, yes her vortex is good, yes she has the easiest unblockables in the game onto like 75% of the cast, but her defense is horrible, one of the worst in the game. Her reversal is also one of the very worst, and her neutral game isn't that great either. She really needs her knockdown game. I don't see a need to nerf her as long as she keeps doing poorly in most tournaments. Zangief has better recent tournament results than Ibuki.
Akuma on the other hand has amazing defense, the best DP in the game, some of the most damaging comboes in the game, the best anti-air ultra ... So for him to have an amazing vortex is probably a bit too much. Still I wouldn't nerf her too much, probably just nerfing that Demon Flip would be enough. Something with the Palm, probably. I wonder if making it focusable would be too much...?
On January 05 2013 01:15 Shikyo wrote: Viper seriously doesn't need any buffs at the moment, there's like 20 characters who need buffs more than her. Her normals need to suck, it's how she is.
About Ibuki, yes her vortex is good, yes she has the easiest unblockables in the game onto like 75% of the cast, but her defense is horrible, one of the worst in the game. Her reversal is also one of the very worst, and her neutral game isn't that great either. She really needs her knockdown game. I don't see a need to nerf her as long as she keeps doing poorly in most tournaments. Zangief has better recent tournament results than Ibuki.
Akuma on the other hand has amazing defense, the best DP in the game, some of the most damaging comboes in the game, the best anti-air ultra ... So for him to have an amazing vortex is probably a bit too much. Still I wouldn't nerf her too much, probably just nerfing that Demon Flip would be enough. Something with the Palm, probably. I wonder if making it focusable would be too much...?
I think OS demon would beat that clean anyway.
You don't even have to block it high anymore so it is barely ever intended to hit. You just go for the instant recovery into low/crossup/demon/throw mixup.
On January 05 2013 01:15 Shikyo wrote: Viper seriously doesn't need any buffs at the moment, there's like 20 characters who need buffs more than her. Her normals need to suck, it's how she is.
About Ibuki, yes her vortex is good, yes she has the easiest unblockables in the game onto like 75% of the cast, but her defense is horrible, one of the worst in the game. Her reversal is also one of the very worst, and her neutral game isn't that great either. She really needs her knockdown game. I don't see a need to nerf her as long as she keeps doing poorly in most tournaments. Zangief has better recent tournament results than Ibuki.
Akuma on the other hand has amazing defense, the best DP in the game, some of the most damaging comboes in the game, the best anti-air ultra ... So for him to have an amazing vortex is probably a bit too much. Still I wouldn't nerf her too much, probably just nerfing that Demon Flip would be enough. Something with the Palm, probably. I wonder if making it focusable would be too much...?
Where did I say the other chars shouldnt get buffs as well? Giving her a 4 frame low short with -2 on block still makes her normals suck, the hitbox still sucks, -2 on block is still bad and so on, its just the bare minimum needed to keep her a competitive character. Id like all chars to be competitive. Your argumentation of "Her normals need to suck thats how she is" coupled with "Hey look Akuma has top notch normals, DP, Zoning, Vortex, Comboes but I wouldnt nerf him too much" are really shallow lines of thought.
Also the palm being focusable would do jack all as others have pointed out its all about the recovery on whiff and if used meaty its almost always a divekick or throw mixup, the palm is really only there for whiffing. To counter this the recovery on whiff would obviously need to be upped by a cpl (probably more like a lot) of frames.
On January 05 2013 01:15 Shikyo wrote: Viper seriously doesn't need any buffs at the moment, there's like 20 characters who need buffs more than her. Her normals need to suck, it's how she is.
About Ibuki, yes her vortex is good, yes she has the easiest unblockables in the game onto like 75% of the cast, but her defense is horrible, one of the worst in the game. Her reversal is also one of the very worst, and her neutral game isn't that great either. She really needs her knockdown game. I don't see a need to nerf her as long as she keeps doing poorly in most tournaments. Zangief has better recent tournament results than Ibuki.
Akuma on the other hand has amazing defense, the best DP in the game, some of the most damaging comboes in the game, the best anti-air ultra ... So for him to have an amazing vortex is probably a bit too much. Still I wouldn't nerf her too much, probably just nerfing that Demon Flip would be enough. Something with the Palm, probably. I wonder if making it focusable would be too much...?
I dont think Viper 100% needs buffs per se, they would be nice tho. The buffs I suggested wouldnt hugely change her gameplay much but would just basically mean that Viper would lose a few less games due to random execution mistakes. Seems reasonable to me, but yeah I agree that she doesn't 'need' them. I do feel like theres a reasonable chance that in her current state the really strong showings of Latif/Krone in 2011 wont really be repeated very often in the future though. We'll see. I would agree with your point about her normals needing to suck for her to work in a balanced manner when burnkicks were still a very strong option, in the current meta/level of skill theyre something that can be baited and punished heavily ON REACTION by most characters in the game.
When I mentioned Ibuki I wasnt really suggesting she was 'top tier', I dont personally think shes anywhere near the level of Akuma and possibly even below Viper, I havnt really thought about her much. The only point I was really getting at was the comparisons of the vortex - how I feel Vipers vortex is utterly ass compared to the other 2 chars shes often lumped in with, Akuma and Ibuki. I also dont think she needs any nerfs, personally.
Akuma seems...good. I honestly need to know more about him before I could give an honest opinion on whether or not I think he deserves a nerf. I do think people actually overestimate how strong the vortex options in the game are though. For example, Arturo Sanchez made a 1.5 hour video or so on his youtube channel where he went over the Daigo vs Infiltration matches from the 25th Anniversary tournament and it basically went like this:
-Arturo says that Akumas vortex is incredible and that Daigo has to guess between huge numbers of options after every sweep. Continues to say this is the case the whole way through the video.
-In the actual matches that are watched Infiltration goes to purely two options after a sweep, over, and over again. Arturo keeps drawing lines saying how Akuma could do like 6 or 7 different things after the sweep but Infiltration continually kept going for only 2 which I figure you could actually fuzzy guard/protect against on reaction. These 2 options were not working amazingly, they didnt bait many whiffed uppercuts from Daigo, they didnt keep getting Infiltration damage, im guessing they were purely done because theyre the only safe options Akuma can do vs Ryu off of that knockdown and so he may as well go for them to continue some pressure. The two options seemed to be by the way (im no Akuma expert, at all), demonflip safe divekick on top of Ryus head (hits infront) and whiff demonflip palm behind into whatever grounded behind. He literally didnt do anything else off of like prob 20-30 sweeps over the 9 matches iirc. I doubt its because Infiltration doesn't personally know any other setups there, its likely because there just arent any.
I think the game is largely just getting to a stage where if youre playing against Akuma and dont know every single setup he could do on you (and things he cannot do) in every single type of knockdown situation and have a plan for how you wake up in that situation to defend against all/most of the options, you arent learning/playing the game well enough. Think the time of only lightly knowing your matchups is gone.
Off the Demon Flip you basically do divekick -> front, whiff palm -> behind(low or grab usually), or demon palm grab. Grab is by far the most unsafe and only gives 150 damage but it's the most difficult one to avoid, I think you can stand tech option select the other 2 options.
On January 05 2013 04:30 Shikyo wrote: Not sure about 6 or 7 different things.
Off the Demon Flip you basically do divekick -> front, whiff palm -> behind(low or grab usually), or demon palm grab. Grab is by far the most unsafe and only gives 150 damage but it's the most difficult one to avoid, I think you can stand tech option select the other 2 options.
Na you cant stand tech option select these options. Divekick and behind - low hit meaty, so your stand tech is gonna get blown up and ull eat a full combo. All you can do is go for a reversal dp to beat out behind - low and thats why good akumas alternate it with divekick which makes your DP whiff. The risk reward is basically completely off and hugely in akumas favor, you can either guess which side to block on (lowest risk but also no reward as your now in a blockstring/tick throw/frame trap situation or get thrown if he went for behind - throw) or guess dp which is obviously a very high risk and the reward you get for guessing right is much smaller than the reward akuma gets if you guess dp wrong.
Yeah Shikyo the palm whiffs and the followup attack on the ground meatys in the whiff palm setups.
I think the general idea I was getting at mentioning Akuma and his vortex options are that people (including myself until recently) wrongly assume that Akuma can do basically whatever the fuck he wants in any knockdown situation and you have to guess between all the options he has off of any knockdown, on any knockdown, whereas the reality is that he only has a few options off of each type of knockdown and some of them can be immediately crossed off as possibilities once you see the start of the setup hes going for.
ie. If someone does an unblockable using a normal whiff setup and you just get hit by it - that was fixable before the situation ever arose by knowing the setup against your character in advance and knowing the correct way to get out of it (most unblockables have some special trick you can do to not get hit like crouching, dashing in a direction on wakeup etc). The normal is clearly visible while its being whiffed to time the jumpin off of this specific type of knockdown, theres nothing even remotely ambiguous about it until people start doing unblockable setups but come in with normals that dont create unblockables and now catch your unblockable-escape option, which people dont do yet. People just do setups and everyone goes 'omfg so hard to know how to defend' when the player doing the setup essentially said in the 'language of setups' exactly wtf theyre doing in the second or two before you get hit.
For example, viper forward throws ryu into the corner and whiffs stand roundhouse into a jump forward. By some mid point of the stand roundhouse the ryu player should immediately realize from memory that a forward jump roundhouse following this is reverse blockable. Viper jumps, ryu blocks correctly because he knows the setup, moves on with his life!
Dont get me wrong, I dont know hardly any of the setups possible against me and this is something ive been starting to work on recently. I feel like if people just get really good at knowing the few options that are actually possible in different situations alot of this talk of 'vortex' ruining the whole game might dissapear fairly fast.
Well yeah in that way Ibukis Vortex is far more dangerous because she gets easy unblockables against around 75% of the cast which leads to more unblockables and even if they choose not to do unblockables they can do SRK whiff safejump ambiguous crossups really easily.
I guess Kunai Vortex as well but if you've spent like 30min in training mode vs Ibuki you realize it's pretty easy to block, if they can't block it though it's freewin off any neckbreaker or throw.
EPT
