On June 24 2011 12:23 MCMcEmcee wrote: It's like people forget that every game Daigo has played a Shoto in, it was because that particular Shoto was pretty much top tier (except I guess console Super because lol console Super in Japan).
Nah mang he didn't play CvS2/3S Ken or ST/vanilla SF4 Ryu or CvS2 Sagat or console super Ken/Guile or A3 V-Akuma/V-Ryu or GGXX Sol because they were really strong and arguably top tier or right under that, it's because he ONLY plays Shotos. Shotos like ST boxer, CvS2 Guile/Chun, CFJ Urien, VH Pyron, VSav Bishamon, #R Slayer, etc. I admire Daigo's consistent resolve to play Shotos instead of top tiers who have DP-like moves.
In conclusion, don't draw stupid conclusions about character balance based on your own perceptions on what characters a top player SHOULD be playing instead.
lol what?
Ryu was not top tier in ST; not even close.
V-Ryu / V-Akuma weren't the best in Alpha 3, and yet he still played those predominantly. Same with Guile/Ken in CvS2.
Daigo's play has always revolved around fireball based heavy characters in Street Fighter. The only other time he didn't was when he played Boxer in ST for a stretch, but still he played Ryu alot more in ST then any other character.
And the poster who stated that characters can beat Dive Kicks; yeah sure you can beat Dive Kicks if you know it's coming every single time. But you have no reliable way of actually beating it every time with certain characters like Sim. That's why Sim loses to Yun for free once he gets above him.
Ryu is like top 4-5 in ST and generally in the discussion for top tier. V-Akuma was considered the best character in the game at the time that Daigo was actually playing the game, wasn't even really close. V-Ryu has always been good due to silly reset VCs, corner Hado-rave stuff, and CC infinite. Guile, Chun, Ken, and Sagat are like 4 of the 6 best C Groove characters in CvS2.
Dhalsim, a zoning character, has trouble once a rushdown character is inside his comfortable range? Must be because the rushdown character is broken and not because of an intentional, fundamental flaw with Dhalsim!
I'm just gonna comment about the dive kicks, it is incredibly easy to stuff dive kicks from the twins. Like Trumpet said most characters have a random light or medium normal that will stuff/trade with the dive kicks. Those normals are fast enough that you can just throw it out if they jump on reaction. I know I'm getting stuffed more than half the time no matter how early/late I throw out the dive kick. I may not be the best Yun for sure but I do know that it's possible to beat dive kicks on reaction, hell even ex lunge is starting to get beat on reaction from about mid screen in my group.
@Daigo and tiers Sure he's always predominately played fireball heavy characters but they've always happened to be near the top of the tier list. I won't run through it again since MCMcEmcee already covered it really well.
Edit: I was on the side that the twins and Fei are just as bad as Vanilla Sagat but the more I play the quicker people are figuring out my shit. EX lunge is bullshit but definitely not broken. Yun has big damage but it definitely isn't as easy as landing a trade dp, f.hk, U1 for Sagat.
Sure you can anti-air his dive kicks, but what if he neutral jumps or short dive kicks and you whiff ur anti-air? Yun is great because he always keeps you guessing, and when u guess wrong you pay for it. Yun isn't great simply cuz loldivekickssogood
I'd say ST Ryu is like 6th behind Dhalsim, Boxer, Claw, O. Sagat, and arguably Chun? In Japanese play with O. Sagat pretty much irrelevant (let's not count him) and Claw relatively rare, I agree Ryu is more like 4th though and arguably top tier, even considering the army of Dhalsims. Top Ryus do very well.
Nothing about Yun is that uniquely powerful except for his meter building and the ex lunge. If the EX Lunge is safe on block or even at 1 frame disadvantage instead of 1 frame advantage then he'd be an absolutely normal character. The thing is right now everyone wants to bitch that a rushdown character gets in safely from full screen.
If he just has his meter building nerfed a bit then he won't be able to spam out ex-lunge. Genei Jin doesn't even do more damage than many supers necessarily but requires some serious execution. And the fact that he can get two of them per BO3 is pretty odd.
On June 24 2011 17:11 Myrmidon wrote: I'd say ST Ryu is like 6th behind Dhalsim, Boxer, Claw, O. Sagat, and arguably Chun? In Japanese play with O. Sagat pretty much irrelevant (let's not count him) and Claw relatively rare, I agree Ryu is more like 4th though and arguably top tier, even considering the army of Dhalsims. Top Ryus do very well.
Sagat and Claw are soft-banned in japan. Most people in arcades don't even play them.
Twins will be put in their place in time...Every update has it's flavor of the month. Can we just change the title back to the name of the game, instead of this silly stuff, please?
I don't know why people are crying about Kara palm genei jin combos. It only does like 40 damage more than a regular genei jin in the corner. And you give up the 50/50 at the end.
On June 24 2011 16:51 Jpizzle wrote: Sure you can anti-air his dive kicks, but what if he neutral jumps or short dive kicks and you whiff ur anti-air? Yun is great because he always keeps you guessing, and when u guess wrong you pay for it. Yun isn't great simply cuz loldivekickssogood
This.
If you're able to stuff Yun's dive kicks ezpz than the Yun is being way too predictable. He has three incredibly different angles on his dive kicks; I almost think its impossible to stuff it on reaction. I think ppl who're able to stuff it does so because they see dive kick coming and not necessarily whether it's going to hit them or not.
If you're able to stuff Yun's dive kicks ezpz than the Yun is being way too predictable. He has three incredibly different angles on his dive kicks; I almost think its impossible to stuff it on reaction. I think ppl who're able to stuff it does so because they see dive kick coming and not necessarily whether it's going to hit them or not.
The thing is Yun really only has 1 maybe 2 angles depending on the distance. The button you usually press to beat dive kicks is a jab or mp or cr.mp. I don't think it's hard at all to start mashing jab when you see them jump. Like I said the people I'm playing against are stuff EX Lunge on reaction from mid screen so it's definitely possible to stuff dive kicks on reaction.
Divekicks are easy to stop, Either he hits you too high to combo, where you can punish him since your hit stun is fine. Or you jab out when he divekicks mid/low.
neutral jump roundhouse on a lot of characters is fucking godlike against ex lunge.
The thing is Yun really only has 1 maybe 2 angles depending on the distance. The button you usually press to beat dive kicks is a jab or mp or cr.mp. I don't think it's hard at all to start mashing jab when you see them jump. Like I said the people I'm playing against are stuff EX Lunge on reaction from mid screen so it's definitely possible to stuff dive kicks on reaction.
and from jump towards Target combo jump in short dive kick forward dive kick roundhouse dive kick also crossup dive kicks
and if you guess wrong you eat a combo leading to knockdown, which leads to the 3 way mix up: 1.palm beats 3f and 4f reversals but loses to 5f reversals like tiger uppercut 2.fake palm block beats all uppercuts and resets the situation and leads to dizzy if gets another combo 3.fake palm command throw beats blocking because they are afraid of the real palm and resets the situation
Good Yuns will not divekick above the waist and eat a free combo, instead they will neutral jump and mix up the kicks to see your reaction, when they realise that your mashing jab/shoto short for example, they jump in like every other character.
Simply saying "you can anti-air it so its not a threat" is only true if your a robot that reacts perfectly. The beauty of fighting games is that even if you have an answer, if the opponent knows your answer, he can beat you.
The thing is Yun really only has 1 maybe 2 angles depending on the distance. The button you usually press to beat dive kicks is a jab or mp or cr.mp. I don't think it's hard at all to start mashing jab when you see them jump. Like I said the people I'm playing against are stuff EX Lunge on reaction from mid screen so it's definitely possible to stuff dive kicks on reaction.
and from jump towards Target combo jump in short dive kick forward dive kick roundhouse dive kick also crossup dive kicks
Good Yuns will not divekick above the waist and eat a free combo, instead they will neutral jump and mix up the kicks to see your reaction, when they realise that your mashing jab/shoto short for example, they jump in like every other character.
Yes you listed all the things Yun can do off a jump but based on the SPACING you can eliminate most of those options.
Let's say you're knocked down and they are right on top of you. They aren't going to jump towards you so that eliminates all of those options. Since they're right on top of you they can dive in front or cross up dive. Because he's on top of you he basically only has two options. If he dives early he's trying to cross up and if he does it later he's going to stay on the same side. You know they're not going to try to use mk or hk dive since like you said a good Yun is not going to hit above the waist.
When Yun is farther away you can easily react to dives depending on who you're using. Some characters just use their standard anti airs vs dive kicks like Makoto while a char like Fei will use st.jab. It's all character specific but everyone has someone of dealing with dive kick as long as you know how it works.
EPT
