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On July 18 2012 01:56 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
that might be true. Infiltration's hakan is nasty, but how much of that is attributed to the fact that NOBODY knows the matchup? Hakan has tools for many situations, and his oki is strong, but grapplers need a solid footsie game as well and hakan really struggles in that area
His footsies are pretty reliant on whiff punishes and baits, which while not completely reliable become more reliable the more skilled you far so his footsies aren't TOO bad if you are a good player (like infiltration) but just picking hakan up he's pretty bad in footsies because he's not a starter grappler, like gief can be.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On July 18 2012 02:37 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 02:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
sakura's deal 400-450 with no meter, 550+ for two bars, and her basic bnb into U1 is about 600. plus nearly all of her combo enders have strong oki afterwards, an area where Oni struggles. Sakura also has more options to land these combos than Oni does, having a long-distance low poke that is cancellable into these combos. It's not just a numbers game.
Oni's max damage combos are not practical either, as his max damage combos require the c.mp, [b.mp chain s.fp], and that doesn't work on crouching opponents. you get far less damage on crouching opponents where you have to link jabs into b.mp xx slash fadc.
You can also do c.mp, c.fp xx slash (the c.fp forces stand) but it's character specific. Also you can start the combo with c.HP but it doesn't even matter, TC2 gives him less dmg anyway because of the scaling so you'll probably want to do c.HP for the rest of the combo anyway. By the end they'll be standing. BNB is 450 with 1 EX off a jumpin, I don't understand how you deal 450 without meter. Then again, yes, Sakura's a good comboing character, that doesn't mean Oni being able to do a 600 dmg combo vs the entire cast is a bad thing. As for Onis bnb I think that 350+ damage with no bars off a jumpin is very respectable.
combos off a jumpin are pretty irrelevant for Oni, who has very little in terms of setting that situation up. he's not like Sakura with ambiguous crossups and unblockables for days. try to start a string on the ground on a crouching opponent, for example, counterhit stepkick combos to jab. that's a far more practical and realistic combo for Oni.
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wow im really amazed by the netcode of the pc verison. there is no delay/lag at all for me. its a pity most of the competition seems to be happening on the console versions.
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Thanks for the help guys. So who are the good characters for newbies?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
i think most players end up switching a few times before they find their main. it's good to experiment with different characters that require different skillsets so you can see what works best for you. the basic trio i'd recommend is ryu/balrog/yun; ryu is a strict fundamentals character with some dominant footsies tools in his c.mk and his sweep. balrog is nothing but footsies and teaches you to be patient and pick your spots, also blocking a lot LOL. Yun is a divekickey rushdown type with a lot of options and setups to explore. they're three completely different playstyles.
the only characters that are kinda 'too advanced' for a newcomer are akuma, cammy, seth, viper... the high-execution barrier characters. they all require stable hands and a strong understanding of the wakeup game and mindfucking people
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United States12235 Posts
As someone who plays against Kimo's Hakan pretty regularly I can tell you that Hakan is actually scariest not as a strict grappler but as a punish character. Hakan's normals are actually very good for footsies (especially his s.mk, s.mp and s.hp). Infiltration's Hakan is actually rather gimmicky and it's bizarre to think he's not actually utilizing him to his full potential. Hakan's dash-normal-cancel when oiled is incredibly powerful and lets you do really really stupid things such as:
- focus absorb and punish almost any move via level 1 focus -> f+mp xx slide
- punish any non-crossup jump-in via focus -> dash normal cancel -> jab (hits them before they even land)
- avoid almost all wakeup mixups via backdash -> dash normal cancel (retain invincibility from backdash) -> jab
Hakan's main problems are that his BnBs (s.lp c.lp xx slide and s.lp f+lk xx slide) are unplinkable 1-frame links and that if he's not oiled he has no way to safely get out of pressure other than a lucky EX 360. His strengths come from shutting down your poke game using a combination of focus and dash-canceling (which basically allows him to be at any distance he wants), then causing you to freeze up where he can start doing 360s or a walking 720.
He's a very unorthodox character and definitely underrated. He has some pretty awful matchups but I'd say Hawk probably has a worse time overall.
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On July 18 2012 03:10 laces_out wrote:
Thanks for the help guys. So who are the good characters for newbies?
I have two answers
1) Pick everyone and find someone you like. The reasoning behind this is that if you like your character you will stick with him/her long enough to learn more than just the basics.
2) Pick Ryu or Ken This is the answer you were probably suggested the most. These characters both use the basic streetfighter motions and nothing to out of the box. Solid characters with 'tools' to handle any situation.
Personal note: I like answer 1 better. It makes more sense and you really should experience Charge characters (Bison, Guile, Boxer (Balrog) and Grapplers ( Zangief, Abel, Honda)
EDIT: gotta catch'em all
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On July 18 2012 03:14 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
i think most players end up switching a few times before they find their main. it's good to experiment with different characters that require different skillsets so you can see what works best for you. the basic trio i'd recommend is ryu/balrog/yun; ryu is a strict fundamentals character with some dominant footsies tools in his c.mk and his sweep. balrog is nothing but footsies and teaches you to be patient and pick your spots, also blocking a lot LOL. Yun is a divekickey rushdown type with a lot of options and setups to explore. they're three completely different playstyles.
the only characters that are kinda 'too advanced' for a newcomer are akuma, cammy, seth, viper... the high-execution barrier characters. they all require stable hands and a strong understanding of the wakeup game and mindfucking people
Agreed with everything, though I'm not sure I would say Akuma and Cammy are too hard for a new player. They have plenty of fancy aspects to them but they aren't as hard to learn as say, c viper. She is definitely an advanced character.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
i listed those two as too advanced because a new player isn't gonna understand why the setups they try to copy don't work. Cammy especially, in order to beat things like Makoto's Fukiage (the up punch) after a hk spiral knockdown you have to divekick on the first or second frame possible on your way up. stuff like that is very specific and changes matchups drastically. both akuma and cammy have to make tiny adjustments against different characters to make their stuff effective, adjustments that aren't necessarily intuitive.
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True that, but you're talking about stuff way beyond what a beginner needs to know or will know xD. A new player is going to just be trying to execute basic and semi advanced combos and simply learning how to execute/combat the basic strategies of each character. Frame data related stuff is pretty hardcore.
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On July 18 2012 03:00 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 02:37 Shikyo wrote:On July 18 2012 02:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
sakura's deal 400-450 with no meter, 550+ for two bars, and her basic bnb into U1 is about 600. plus nearly all of her combo enders have strong oki afterwards, an area where Oni struggles. Sakura also has more options to land these combos than Oni does, having a long-distance low poke that is cancellable into these combos. It's not just a numbers game.
Oni's max damage combos are not practical either, as his max damage combos require the c.mp, [b.mp chain s.fp], and that doesn't work on crouching opponents. you get far less damage on crouching opponents where you have to link jabs into b.mp xx slash fadc.
You can also do c.mp, c.fp xx slash (the c.fp forces stand) but it's character specific. Also you can start the combo with c.HP but it doesn't even matter, TC2 gives him less dmg anyway because of the scaling so you'll probably want to do c.HP for the rest of the combo anyway. By the end they'll be standing. BNB is 450 with 1 EX off a jumpin, I don't understand how you deal 450 without meter. Then again, yes, Sakura's a good comboing character, that doesn't mean Oni being able to do a 600 dmg combo vs the entire cast is a bad thing. As for Onis bnb I think that 350+ damage with no bars off a jumpin is very respectable. combos off a jumpin are pretty irrelevant for Oni, who has very little in terms of setting that situation up. he's not like Sakura with ambiguous crossups and unblockables for days. try to start a string on the ground on a crouching opponent, for example, counterhit stepkick combos to jab. that's a far more practical and realistic combo for Oni.
Well.. Maybe, although I see potential in Oni's wakeup game with his airdashes, numerous crossup methods, and his really nice j.MK which is a pretty good crossup aerial in my opinion. Also he has tools like airdash -> cancel into crossup tetsu which really screws with the trajectory (And comboes into MK tetsu for a 210 dmg combo).
And yeah it's kind of useful that f.MK comboes into jab although if it's at a max range jab will be out of range. I guess you will just use your normal blockstring there and if it comboes that's awesome.
Hmm I'm wondering what are all the options Oni has after he scores a hard knockdown in front of him(should happen alot)
On July 18 2012 07:02 Neurosis wrote:
True that, but you're talking about stuff way beyond what a beginner needs to know or will know xD. A new player is going to just be trying to execute basic and semi advanced combos and simply learning how to execute/combat the basic strategies of each character. Frame data related stuff is pretty hardcore.
Really? About 1 hour after getting the game I was reading about frame data. It really helps to know which moves are safe when and what comboes into what so that you don't waste ýour time trying to get an impossible combo to work.
By the way for a beginner, it'd probably be adviced to first learn just a few basic comboes(I'd say about two, punish combo and a hit confirm combo, both working on crouch) and then just concentrating on footsies / the general gameplay.
Using Akuma as an example, punish combo: j.HP -> HP(c) -> QCB LK -> SRK HP and hit confirm combo: j.HP -> c.LK -> c.LP -> c.MP -> QCF + HP
First you practice the punish combo on a training dummy until you got it down perfectly, then you set it to random block. Now you want to jumpin and use the hit confirm combo until you see if he blocks(finish hit confirm combo aka block string) or if your attacks hit(As soon as you notice that you want to transition into the QCB LK -> SRK HP combo).
By the way the akuma stuff doesn't work for crouching opponents but that was just an example
Just learning these 2 comboes and concentrating on general gameplay is going to be the best for a beginning player in my opinion.
By the way is f.MK -> kara Raging Demon avoidable on blocking f.MK? Like you are right in front of the opponent and it's a 0 frame grab right...?
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If youre new to the game and playing Boxer (Balrog), who you should at least try out because he's got one of the most simple but effective gameplans and will teach you all the 2d fighting game basics, here's some basics:
cr.hp is your anti air. every time someone jumps at you, hit that button. If you hit it in time, they get smashed. Even if you're a little too late, hit the button anyway to build the reflex. You might eat a few jump ins getting used to it but its way worth it in the long run.
st.hk is your go to counterpoke button
cr.lp / cr.mp canceled into the lp dash straight is your standard pressure
cr.lp, cr.lp, cr.lk into the hp headbutt is your standard punish combo.
If you get knocked down, ex rush punches can get you out of crossups since they have armor, but his reversals aren't amazing so you end up blocking a lot (which is a GOOD thing for learning).
Also you can headbutt or use ex dash punches to go through fireballs
etc etc.
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United States12235 Posts
On July 18 2012 07:04 Shikyo wrote:
By the way is f.MK -> kara Raging Demon avoidable on blocking f.MK? Like you are right in front of the opponent and it's a 0 frame grab right...?
Well if your move comes out and is blocked then you're not exactly karaing it :> Anyway no, because your opponent will be in blockstun from blocking the move, and you can't grab when the opponent is in blockstun, he can just hold up when he sees the spark and he'll get away as soon as the blockstun ends because the first frame after the blockstun is over he'll be in prejump frames (also not grabbable).
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On July 18 2012 07:02 Neurosis wrote:
True that, but you're talking about stuff way beyond what a beginner needs to know or will know xD. A new player is going to just be trying to execute basic and semi advanced combos and simply learning how to execute/combat the basic strategies of each character. Frame data related stuff is pretty hardcore.
yeah, the point being that the new player is gonna get blown up while using those characters & won't understand why. it's pretty easy to tell why you lost when you're playing ryu.
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On July 18 2012 07:34 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 07:04 Shikyo wrote:
By the way is f.MK -> kara Raging Demon avoidable on blocking f.MK? Like you are right in front of the opponent and it's a 0 frame grab right...? Well if your move comes out and is blocked then you're not exactly karaing it :> Anyway no, because your opponent will be in blockstun from blocking the move, and you can't grab when the opponent is in blockstun, he can just hold up when he sees the spark and he'll get away as soon as the blockstun ends because the first frame after the blockstun is over he'll be in prejump frames (also not grabbable).
Well yeah I just didn't know what to call that, he moves forward like half a screen so <_<
So if I wait until the frame his blockstun ends it's a guaranteed demon?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
no. you have to cancel the startup of the normal into demon, before the opponent enters blockstun, or it won't work.
if your opponent enters blockstun you'll be too far for the demon to connect instantly, your opponent will be able to jump away from the lightning effect on reaction, even if you space the normal so it's +0 on block.
oni's stepkick is a bit of a mystery to me. seems to have that bison scissor kick property with varying levels of advantage and disadvantage based on how you are spaced from your opponent. wiki says it's -2 on block but that's not accurate.
you can't kara-demon someone from half screen, no. lol
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United States12235 Posts
^^^^^ He was saying that demon travels half a screen, not that he's expecting to kara someone from across the screen haha.
I think the input for kara demon is f+mp+lp lp f+lk+hp (substitute f+mp with any other kara-cancelable move, overhead f+mp is just the easiest since it's the slowest). You get the first lp by pressing it at the same time as the move you're karaing (mp takes priority so that's what will start to come out), tap the second lp right after, and you can combine the f+lk+hp inputs to shortcut the rest of the demon.
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if you're aren't in block stun, hit stun, or wake up frames, and Akuma is right next to you, the demon (super) is going to connect.
the kara version baits a guy to press back or down back because of the overhead (f+mp)
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Hi guys
I just bought hori SC5 stick with sanwa buttons.I know basics of this game and I play at decent level (I can beat noobs but get destroyed against experienced players.)I am not planning to play offline anytime soon.I want to learn a good character in online fighting.
I played Ryu and ibuki.Ryu is good at online but ibuki sucked.I missed my oki timings a lot with her at online.Can you guys recommend me a good character besides ryu?I am planning to invest a lot of time to my new character.
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On July 18 2012 19:19 Silentenigma wrote:
Hi guys
I just bought hori SC5 stick with sanwa buttons.I know basics of this game and I play at decent level (I can beat noobs but get destroyed against experienced players.)I am not planning to play offline anytime soon.I want to learn a good character in online fighting.
I played Ryu and ibuki.Ryu is good at online but ibuki sucked.I missed my oki timings a lot with her at online.Can you guys recommend me a good character besides ryu?I am planning to invest a lot of time to my new character.
It's really just up to your style man. You already know the game, so play what you like. You haven't really given a lot of information as to your playstyle...if you enjoy Ibuki but can't vortex through lag, then I guess you could try a character like Yun or Rufus. Rufus especially has a lot of mixups, but he's more reaction-oriented, so you can play through the lag issues. Also no shortage of great players to watch if you want to learn him.
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EPT
