On July 17 2012 09:28 Shikyo wrote: Here I was thinking that his standard MK was good for footsies, also his F+HP startup is only 12 frames which isnt much at all for a move like that and if I understand human mind correctly, you cannot react in 9 frames and that thing has insane priority (Also destroys most projectiles). Most people also aren't going to be spamming normals at that distance because that could leave them quite vulnerable. Honestly I don't understand what's wrong with Oni's footsie game - it's not the best but it's still nowhere near the bottom of the pile.
Also he has a 4 bar combo off a jumpin that deals 930 stun(550 dmg), so basically instastun vs 7 characters at the very least. Can land on a whiffed shoryuken or whatever else you got. I'd imagine a reset into crossup EX slice would be quite strong if Oni has his ultra ready, because with that he could then finish the opponent off even if he was at full hp before that combo. Would easily be enough for instakilling Akuma for instance.
(I mean yeah, it can be predictable, but after taking 550 damage and being stunned, is it realistic to assume the opponent to have the balls to block away from you after Oni does HP -> EX-slice? )
oni's standard s.mk is only good for one purpose, blowing up focus attacks because it's two hits. it doesn't have too great a hitbox, it can get blown up by most character's c.mk and some characters c.mp.
his f.fp is good but as with any other long-range, high-recovery normal, it's focus bait. you can't throw it out recklessly for that reason. it also gets stuffed by lows, so you shouldn't be too saucy with it vs characters like Sakura that can get high damage combos off their c.mk.
The problem with Oni's footsies game is that it's all he's really got - yes he's got high damage punishes with meter, but most characters do. hell, some characters don't need so much meter to reach similar numbers in damage and stun, so if you're playing Oni to land those big combos, you'd be better served playing another character, which puts him lower on the tier list.
Oni's main problem is that he has no reliable way to open someone up. you're relying on your opponents to make mistakes so you can land his big combos. his approaches are pretty linear, and nobody falls for the crossup slash. i have the benefit of having one of my main training partners main Oni (and as a Chun player he has superb footsies ), so anytime he tries the crossup slash, he is hit with a maximum damage punish. anyone with a bit of matchup experience vs Oni will be able to do the same, which puts the risk/reward at a ratio that is not favourable for Oni.
Plus, he has no safe way out of mixups. If he could FADC his dragon punch on block, it'd be a different story. that one little detail matters a lot. the upside is his dp actually has a fantastic hitbox, and will hit some ambiguous crossup setups that force the other shoto's dps to whiff
and yes it is realistic to expect the opponent to block ex slash, that shit is really really easy to block.
also, are you sure Oni generates enough meter for a 5th bar? sakura can't and her combos are longer. i don't think Oni can do that.
also Oni is on the lower end of mid tier. he's viable for sure, just has less options than some characters and has some pretty tough matchups. there's no low tier in this game besides dan and hakan. even thawk gets into the lower end of mid tier because of how badly he eats team divekick (cammy rufus twins)
On July 18 2012 00:13 laces_out wrote: For cancelling, from what I've read it seems like you just input the next attack really quickly during the move to be cancelled. Is that all there is to it?
ok, check it out. there are three stages of a move. i'll use a basic cancel, c.mk xx fireball, as an example. every move is broken up into 3 parts: startup, active frames, and recovery. Startup is the animation before the move actually hits anything. for akuma's c.mk, the startup is 5 frames. then there are active frames, in which the move has a hitbox and can bonk the other player. after the active frames end, there's recovery frames as akuma brings his leg back in.
when you do any cancel, you want to cancel the ACTIVE frames. so when you do c.mk xx fireball, you are inputting the motion fast enough that the game reads a fireball as the active frames connect with the opponent, so it knows to cancel the c.mk.
something like cancelling f.mp into demon is cancelling the STARTUP frames (this is called a kara-cancel) so it needs to be done faster
On July 18 2012 00:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: also, are you sure Oni generates enough meter for a 5th bar? sakura can't and her combos are longer. i don't think Oni can do that.
also Oni is on the lower end of mid tier. he's viable for sure, just has less options than some characters and has some pretty tough matchups. there's no low tier in this game besides dan and hakan. even thawk gets into the lower end of mid tier because of how badly he eats team divekick (cammy rufus twins)
Oni actually generates 2 bars during that combo that uses 4 bars so in reality he only loses 2. Also I guess Sakura's are longer but her comboes don't deal 550 damage with instant stun on 7 chars
(Also I'm not sure about how easy EX-slice is to block on reaction, it takes quite a bit of training to instictively block away even if you don't see the enemy jumping)
On July 18 2012 00:13 laces_out wrote: For cancelling, from what I've read it seems like you just input the next attack really quickly during the move to be cancelled. Is that all there is to it?
ok, check it out. there are three stages of a move. i'll use a basic cancel, c.mk xx fireball, as an example. every move is broken up into 3 parts: startup, active frames, and recovery. Startup is the animation before the move actually hits anything. for akuma's c.mk, the startup is 5 frames. then there are active frames, in which the move has a hitbox and can bonk the other player. after the active frames end, there's recovery frames as akuma brings his leg back in.
when you do any cancel, you want to cancel the ACTIVE frames. so when you do c.mk xx fireball, you are inputting the motion fast enough that the game reads a fireball as the active frames connect with the opponent, so it knows to cancel the c.mk.
something like cancelling f.mp into demon is cancelling the STARTUP frames (this is called a kara-cancel) so it needs to be done faster
And some moves can only be canceled at certain parts, for instance only the first hit of Oni's s.MK can be canceled into a special move.
sakura's combos deal more damage and stun than oni's lol
she has 700-class combos on some characters
and it is seriously really really easy to block ex slice. that's like Oni basics, if he's able to scrub you out with EX slice it's a clue that you need to pay attention more. morons online who smash their buttons with no purpose will get blown up by it though
Seth, Dhalsim, and the twins. Hurtboxes don't quite work the way you think - just because zangief is huge doesn't mean the longest combos are possible on him. a lot of it has to do with their blowback animation and how far you are pushed back from them when you hit 'em. for instance, the twins can be hit with:
cl.mk xx lk tatsu, c.lk xx lk tatsu, c.fp xx lk tatsu, c.fp xx lk tatsu [hits second active frame], c.mk xx hp shou FADC etc
Even if you could do those ~10 1 frame links in a row the diminishing returns become insane after so many moves, basically giving you only like 10% of the dmg after some time.
Or is it some other combo?
What, you can FADC combo with Shoryuken? Why didn't that work when I tested it
mmmm i don't remember the Seth combo off the top of my head, but the Sim one is interesting:
j.hp, cl.mk xx tatsu, cl.mk xx tatsu, c.fp xx tatsu, c.fp xx fireball FADC cl.mk xx tatsu, cl.mk xx tatsu, c.fp xx tatsu, c.fp xx fireball FADC cl.mk xx tatsu, cl.mk xx tatsu, c.fp xx tatsu, c.fp xx hp shou
he gets stunned and you can do another j.fp and a full rep
edit: it probably didn't work when you tested it because it's a one frame link. hp shou fadc close stand fp (3 frame normal)
"even if you could do those links".... pshaw son, i am the master sakura. no big for me
Need a video or I definitely won't believe it's like over 700 damage. In the Oni combo I even had to remove like 4 moves that dealt 60+ dmg each because they made the damage lower because of diminishing returns. Looks like after the first fireball you're at 10% already.
Also from the practical standpoint the oni combo only requires 2 2 frame links.
i dont think the Seth combo works anymore now that he has higher stun. Used to be able to stun him very early in the combo with a cl.rh combo ender. they're pretty impractical anyway.
the idea is, though, that if seth/sim/twins have eaten a combo, IF the mixup that follows hits, the characters are dead. that's her power.
fakesteve i really feel Hakan is middle of mid tier since 2012 update, not low tier like he was before, he's just significantly better in almost every regard now.
that might be true. Infiltration's hakan is nasty, but how much of that is attributed to the fact that NOBODY knows the matchup? Hakan has tools for many situations, and his oki is strong, but grapplers need a solid footsie game as well and hakan really struggles in that area
110% damage? Counter hit? Starting from stun? Cornered?
I'm not talking about combo video comboes, I'm talking about actual comboes that are realistic to land in an actual game, and Oni has one of those dealing nearly 600 dmg without using ultra. Without counter hit, without a corner. Just need a jump-in, like from a crossup or to punish a whiff. Oh and not to mention, it's not character-specific. It works on every single character.
By the way speaking of corner: Oni, off a jumpin, has a 429 damage corner combo that only uses 1 EX bar and he gains more during the combo so it's practically free.
sakura's deal 400-450 with no meter, 550+ for two bars, and her basic bnb into U1 is about 600. plus nearly all of her combo enders have strong oki afterwards, an area where Oni struggles. Sakura also has more options to land these combos than Oni does, having a long-distance low poke that is cancellable into these combos. It's not just a numbers game.
Oni's max damage combos are not practical either, as his max damage combos require the c.mp, [b.mp chain s.fp], and that doesn't work on crouching opponents. you get far less damage on crouching opponents where you have to link jabs into b.mp xx slash fadc.
You can also do c.mp, c.fp xx slash (the c.fp forces stand) but it's character specific.
On July 18 2012 01:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Seth, Dhalsim, and the twins. Hurtboxes don't quite work the way you think - just because zangief is huge doesn't mean the longest combos are possible on him. a lot of it has to do with their blowback animation and how far you are pushed back from them when you hit 'em. for instance, the twins can be hit with:
cl.mk xx lk tatsu, c.lk xx lk tatsu, c.fp xx lk tatsu, c.fp xx lk tatsu [hits second active frame], c.mk xx hp shou FADC etc
I'm going to assume you mean cl.mk xx lk tatsu in that second rep because c.lk's hitstun isn't long enough for lk tatsu to land =)
Also about FADCing Shouoken, I'm not sure what the hitstun is per hit but I heard the best time to FADC it is after the third hit.
Also Shikyo make sure you're always plinking everything. 1-frame links become so much easier if you're plinking buttons.
110% damage? Counter hit? Starting from stun? Cornered?
I'm not talking about combo video comboes, I'm talking about actual comboes that are realistic to land in an actual game, and Oni has one of those dealing nearly 600 dmg without using ultra. Without counter hit, without a corner. Just need a jump-in, like from a crossup or to punish a whiff. Oh and not to mention, it's not character-specific. It works on every single character.
By the way speaking of corner: Oni, off a jumpin, has a 429 damage corner combo that only uses 1 EX bar and he gains more during the combo so it's practically free.
the guy doesn't need to be stunned. Since the dummy always blocks on it's wakeup (even set to no block ) you can't accurately set up Sakura's lvl3 fireball corner traps. This combo is possible if the opponent gets hit by the fireball in those traps if you set them up properly. You can corner-carry from midscreen with a basic tatsu loop beforehand.
On July 18 2012 01:16 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Seth, Dhalsim, and the twins. Hurtboxes don't quite work the way you think - just because zangief is huge doesn't mean the longest combos are possible on him. a lot of it has to do with their blowback animation and how far you are pushed back from them when you hit 'em. for instance, the twins can be hit with:
cl.mk xx lk tatsu, c.lk xx lk tatsu, c.fp xx lk tatsu, c.fp xx lk tatsu [hits second active frame], c.mk xx hp shou FADC etc
I'm going to assume you mean cl.mk xx lk tatsu in that second rep because c.lk's hitstun isn't long enough for lk tatsu to land =)
Also about FADCing Shouoken, I'm not sure what the hitstun is per hit but I heard the best time to FADC it is after the third hit.
Also Shikyo make sure you're always plinking everything. 1-frame links become so much easier if you're plinking buttons.
haha yes i do mean cl.mk not c.lk
HP shou FADC can be done on the second or third hit and is +3 in both instances. I find the 3rd hit much easier for whatever reason. MP Shou can be FADC on the second hit for +3, EX Shou can be FADC on the fifth hit for either +4 or +5, i can't recall. if you have a station test EX shou FADC c.mk and see if it works, if it does it's +5. I think it's +4 though.
On July 18 2012 02:15 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: sakura's deal 400-450 with no meter, 550+ for two bars, and her basic bnb into U1 is about 600. plus nearly all of her combo enders have strong oki afterwards, an area where Oni struggles. Sakura also has more options to land these combos than Oni does, having a long-distance low poke that is cancellable into these combos. It's not just a numbers game.
Oni's max damage combos are not practical either, as his max damage combos require the c.mp, [b.mp chain s.fp], and that doesn't work on crouching opponents. you get far less damage on crouching opponents where you have to link jabs into b.mp xx slash fadc.
You can also do c.mp, c.fp xx slash (the c.fp forces stand) but it's character specific.
Also you can start the combo with c.HP but it doesn't even matter, TC2 gives him less dmg anyway because of the scaling so you'll probably want to do c.HP for the rest of the combo anyway. By the end they'll be standing.
BNB is 450 with 1 EX off a jumpin, I don't understand how you deal 450 without meter. Then again, yes, Sakura's a good comboing character, that doesn't mean Oni being able to do a 600 dmg combo vs the entire cast is a bad thing.
As for Onis bnb I think that 350+ damage with no bars off a jumpin is very respectable.
EPT
), so anytime he tries the crossup slash, he is hit with a maximum damage punish. anyone with a bit of matchup experience vs Oni will be able to do the same, which puts the risk/reward at a ratio that is not favourable for Oni.
