EPTUltra Street Fighter IV - Page 210
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Arnstein
Norway3381 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 14 2012 01:33 YulyaVolkova wrote: Im not sure what Viper combos youre seeing here but I main Viper and the only significant combo Viper could do off of a jab would be into SJC ultra which is pretty damn difficult to do consistently and scales down to 400 damage tops pretty much whichever bnb you do into it :o). The only other options off of specifically a jab or any other normal that isnt a fierce is into strong thunderknuckles which top out in the 250 damageish range, just like most other chars basic bnbs. Her 40% with no ultra/super that you mentioned is only fierce feint fierce combos which start off with either an 8 or 9 frame fierce, so are 100% a big punish/very elaborate frame trap and require you to be about as close as you can be to the opponent when you start the combo to make the second fierce not whiff. Then you need at least 1 meter to turn it into anything more than 270~ damage by strong thunderknuckle finishing and instead doing EX seismo into juggle. Id say at least 50% of the cast have roughly equivalent combos (in the 350-450 damage range) for big punish situations such as fadc combos and the like. Dont get me wrong though, fierce feint fierce is definitely strong and I enjoy having it! Youre absolutely correct though in that her ultra is one of her strongest facets and can be gone into in many different juggle situations. Bnb into SJC ultra is pretty difficult to do though, id say the amount of times ive seen bnb SJC Ultra in tournament matches from top Vipers totals less than 10, and I watch most tournaments and obviously focus on the Viper matchups :p. Ive actually specifically seen situations where Latif/Wolfkrone clearly drop a SJC Ultra (as in, they do something that clearly doesnt work/is a mistake at the end of a bnb and the only real explanation is a SJC Ultra attempt, such as a bnb into random super jump forward) - probably pretty much as often as ive seen succesful SJC Ultras. So yeah, while I can currently go in training mode and do bnb SJC Ultra reasonably consistently, I dont really count on myself hitconfirming+keeping cool on my timing any time soon :o). Obviously then theres other strengths/weaknesses to the character we could go into, but I thought id just address the specific points you made. Shes damn fun tho! :o) Edit: Oh and also Vipers pretty much dont use super unless itll finish a round in an important situation - FADCing and EX seismos are too important to have a full super meter for 95% of most matches. Thank you, this post was really good. I just started playing the game so that's why I was confused and asked some things. First of all excuse my notation The SJC ultra that's simple to do off a jab is LP -> LK -> link vMP -> SJC ultra and that one's pretty easy to super jump cancel for even me after just about 4 hours(using a keyboard I have maybe a 50% success rate). A lot more difficult off just a normal jab and this should allow for hit confirming as well. Those comboes I was talking about are basically things like aerial burning kick in the corner -> ultra(Though obviously you will land this very rarely and just if you guess correctly, though there might be some crossover opportunities for this), then down back high punch -> ultra also comboes if you catch them pretty high in the air etc. The high dmg combo without using ultra or super is basically jumping HK -> vHP -> feint -> vHP -> EX- Seismo -> SJC burning kick which also isn't all that difficult to do (The main problem I currently have is with the FFF). Of course it's rare to get that jumping attack in but I guess it'll happen sometimes, probably off a crossover or a punish. Also Viper seems to have crazy ability to crossover by canceling aerials to burning kicks, she can apparently hit the opponent from either side depending on which kick she uses. However as I've just been in the training mode they might not hit the opponent how it seems and if so this probably makes no sense <_> Again these are just my training mode observations and some simple logic so please correct me if I'm wrong. | ||
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Looms
United States4624 Posts
On July 14 2012 15:46 Arnstein wrote: I'm at Cafe Id now, it's SICK! So lucky  | ||
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YulyaVolkova
United Kingdom95 Posts
On July 14 2012 17:01 Shikyo wrote: Thank you, this post was really good. I just started playing the game so that's why I was confused and asked some things. First of all excuse my notation The SJC ultra that's simple to do off a jab is LP -> LK -> link vMP -> SJC ultra and that one's pretty easy to super jump cancel for even me after just about 4 hours(using a keyboard I have maybe a 50% success rate). A lot more difficult off just a normal jab and this should allow for hit confirming as well. Those comboes I was talking about are basically things like aerial burning kick in the corner -> ultra(Though obviously you will land this very rarely and just if you guess correctly, though there might be some crossover opportunities for this), then down back high punch -> ultra also comboes if you catch them pretty high in the air etc. The high dmg combo without using ultra or super is basically jumping HK -> vHP -> feint -> vHP -> EX- Seismo -> SJC burning kick which also isn't all that difficult to do (The main problem I currently have is with the FFF). Of course it's rare to get that jumping attack in but I guess it'll happen sometimes, probably off a crossover or a punish. Also Viper seems to have crazy ability to crossover by canceling aerials to burning kicks, she can apparently hit the opponent from either side depending on which kick she uses. However as I've just been in the training mode they might not hit the opponent how it seems and if so this probably makes no sense <_> Again these are just my training mode observations and some simple logic so please correct me if I'm wrong. If you just started playing doing a bnb->SJC Ultra semi consistently is pretty damn impressive! Tis a pretty hard thing to do, I would probably say one of the hardest techniques in the game, although admittedly it isn't THAT crazy. You may have a pretty good future in SF4 ^^. You can also do just stand LP->crouch MP->SJC Ultra but its a 1 frame link to the crouch MP instead of a 2 frame from the stand light kick. Less scaling on the ultra damage tho. The most damaging SJC Ultra you can do from a basic bnb is stand strong->crouch strong->SJC Ultra. The thing with all of these SJC Ultra combos tho is that basically, theyre really, really hard to do in an actual match. If youre in a punish situation youre best off basically just doing a fierce feint fierce (which is the HP->feint->HP combo you mentioned) or just raw ultra. You wouldnt do say stand MP crouch MP SJC Ultra because itll basically do the same damage as just raw ultraing and Vipers Ultra is only 1 frame slower startup than her MPs, so itd be best to not bother doing the SJC Ultra and risk dropping either the link between the normals or the SJC Ultra input/timing and missing out on almost all the damage of the combo. Youd just ultra/FFF! The situation SJC Ultra combos are actually used in are basically hitconfirm situations, so youre starting with your jab/shorts with no idea at that time whether youre going to actually go into SJC Ultra at the end of it. Youre having to see on the fly whether youre actually connecting or if its being blocked and then react accordingly and finishing the combo correctly. Thats pretty hard when you consider the motion/strict timing of the ultra button input and the best SJC Ultra combos coming off of the least number of normals before you cancel into the ultra (so less time to react to whether youre actually hitting). Its definitely not easy and not something that should be relied upon as a consistent form of damage - as I said before, I even see the top Vipers mess this up just as much as they actually get it off, and they dont even attempt it in anything other than the most perfect situation where they have alot of time to anticipate the option and so follow through 100% calmly. Ive almost certainly seen 1000+ high level Viper matches from tournaments/casuals and probably seen SJC Ultra less than 10 times total. The 'down back high punch' you refer to I assume is fierce thunderknuckle, and you dont even need to hit them high to juggle into ultra ^^. Any fierce thunderknuckle that hits the opponent can be juggled into ultra in some fasion, its actually pretty sick. If you hit them high -> just time an ultra correctly. If you hit them lower->FADC into ultra. If you trade with their jumpin attack (happens alot as the fierce thunderknuckle invincibility runs out the frame before its first frame of active) you have time to mash out a dash and ultra (because the hit you take in the trade lowers your recovery, keeping you on the ground instead of flying through the air). This is a large part of Vipers 'strong Ultra', you absolutely cannot jumpin in on a good Viper if they have Ultra or you risk taking 400+ damage. Tis pretty gut :o). The great part about it is that its all pretty much option selectable by just doing the fierce thunder knuckle, then mashing dash forward and time a focus appropriately. If you hit them clean+high you wont focus because youll be too far off the ground by time you hit them, if you hit them clean+low the focus will occur because youll still be on the ground when you hit focus and youll FADC forward because youre mashing dash, if you trade youll trade before you press focus so youll just trade then dash with no focus so you end up saving the 2 meter but still get dash->ultra. Takes some getting used to the timing and its pretty tricky (I definitely do not get Ultra every time I could do, ill often drop it in some way). The burnkick crossup thing canceled from a normal is useful, its one of her basic mixups. A normal jumpin at the front followed by a medium/hard burnkick will crossup, a light wont (light stops viper stationary in the air, medium/hard she still has momentum/gains momentum). A super jumpin at the front followed by medium/hard burnkick will usually go too far to hit the person in the back, although it can happen not too infrequently due to character size/nice spacing on the jumpin. Its actually not that ludicrously powerful and people generally overrate burnkicks when they do pretty poor damage and dont really leave you many strong options to pressure/mixup on the opponents wakeup. The real strength of burnkicks is the options you have when you dont burnkick, but the opponent fears the burnkick. Thats absolutely powerful. Conditioning people to not attempt to tech potential throws because you keep burnkicking them then switching to just throwing->safejumping all day is a powerful tool. Only just worked out what you were meaning with the vHP - was thinking of all kinds of words beginning with V that could describe crouching, just got that you likely mean a down arrow ^^. Normally crouching normals are notated like cr.hp etc, standing normals are either just something like 'hp' or 'cl.hp' for close standing normals and f.hp for far standing normals. I apparently like writing about Viper. Id also like to welcome all our new Steam-sale (and likely EVO) empowered SF4 bretheren. Enjoy :o). | ||
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ain
Germany786 Posts
On July 14 2012 07:32 Intact wrote: Didn't know about charge characters, just picked a random one to start with. I'm kinda amazed how fast you improve. I still suck ass but im infinitely better than my first 20 games or so. Really makes it feel like the skillcap is endless. I'd strongly suggest that you try to complete some trials for your character (main menu -> challenge mode -> trial mode). They will teach you many things about how the game works that you can't always figure out on your own. If you don't know the input for a special move you can look it up under command list in the pause menu. If you like Chun Li I suggest you try out M. Bison or Balrog as your first characters. They use the same charge inputs for their moves and are a lot easier for new players to use. | ||
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
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ain
Germany786 Posts
On July 14 2012 21:50 sashkata wrote: When you buy the game for PC in a random store can you play with the people on steam? The game wasn't available on steam for me so I went out and bought it, but it can be pretty hard to find games at times. The game uses GFWL as its online service, not steam. If you're having trouble finding games that just seems like bad luck. | ||
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Corvi
Germany1406 Posts
On July 14 2012 21:50 sashkata wrote: When you buy the game for PC in a random store can you play with the people on steam? The game wasn't available on steam for me so I went out and bought it, but it can be pretty hard to find games at times. search for games of all regions. i guess there just arent very many games in bulgaria, but just go ahead play with german, french or whatever people. | ||
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Lyter
United Kingdom2145 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 14 2012 18:23 YulyaVolkova wrote: If you just started playing doing a bnb->SJC Ultra semi consistently is pretty damn impressive! Tis a pretty hard thing to do, I would probably say one of the hardest techniques in the game, although admittedly it isn't THAT crazy. You may have a pretty good future in SF4 ^^. You can also do just stand LP->crouch MP->SJC Ultra but its a 1 frame link to the crouch MP instead of a 2 frame from the stand light kick. Less scaling on the ultra damage tho. The most damaging SJC Ultra you can do from a basic bnb is stand strong->crouch strong->SJC Ultra. The thing with all of these SJC Ultra combos tho is that basically, theyre really, really hard to do in an actual match. If youre in a punish situation youre best off basically just doing a fierce feint fierce (which is the HP->feint->HP combo you mentioned) or just raw ultra. You wouldnt do say stand MP crouch MP SJC Ultra because itll basically do the same damage as just raw ultraing and Vipers Ultra is only 1 frame slower startup than her MPs, so itd be best to not bother doing the SJC Ultra and risk dropping either the link between the normals or the SJC Ultra input/timing and missing out on almost all the damage of the combo. Youd just ultra/FFF! The situation SJC Ultra combos are actually used in are basically hitconfirm situations, so youre starting with your jab/shorts with no idea at that time whether youre going to actually go into SJC Ultra at the end of it. Youre having to see on the fly whether youre actually connecting or if its being blocked and then react accordingly and finishing the combo correctly. Thats pretty hard when you consider the motion/strict timing of the ultra button input and the best SJC Ultra combos coming off of the least number of normals before you cancel into the ultra (so less time to react to whether youre actually hitting). Its definitely not easy and not something that should be relied upon as a consistent form of damage - as I said before, I even see the top Vipers mess this up just as much as they actually get it off, and they dont even attempt it in anything other than the most perfect situation where they have alot of time to anticipate the option and so follow through 100% calmly. Ive almost certainly seen 1000+ high level Viper matches from tournaments/casuals and probably seen SJC Ultra less than 10 times total. The 'down back high punch' you refer to I assume is fierce thunderknuckle, and you dont even need to hit them high to juggle into ultra ^^. Any fierce thunderknuckle that hits the opponent can be juggled into ultra in some fasion, its actually pretty sick. If you hit them high -> just time an ultra correctly. If you hit them lower->FADC into ultra. If you trade with their jumpin attack (happens alot as the fierce thunderknuckle invincibility runs out the frame before its first frame of active) you have time to mash out a dash and ultra (because the hit you take in the trade lowers your recovery, keeping you on the ground instead of flying through the air). This is a large part of Vipers 'strong Ultra', you absolutely cannot jumpin in on a good Viper if they have Ultra or you risk taking 400+ damage. Tis pretty gut :o). The great part about it is that its all pretty much option selectable by just doing the fierce thunder knuckle, then mashing dash forward and time a focus appropriately. If you hit them clean+high you wont focus because youll be too far off the ground by time you hit them, if you hit them clean+low the focus will occur because youll still be on the ground when you hit focus and youll FADC forward because youre mashing dash, if you trade youll trade before you press focus so youll just trade then dash with no focus so you end up saving the 2 meter but still get dash->ultra. Takes some getting used to the timing and its pretty tricky (I definitely do not get Ultra every time I could do, ill often drop it in some way). The burnkick crossup thing canceled from a normal is useful, its one of her basic mixups. A normal jumpin at the front followed by a medium/hard burnkick will crossup, a light wont (light stops viper stationary in the air, medium/hard she still has momentum/gains momentum). A super jumpin at the front followed by medium/hard burnkick will usually go too far to hit the person in the back, although it can happen not too infrequently due to character size/nice spacing on the jumpin. Its actually not that ludicrously powerful and people generally overrate burnkicks when they do pretty poor damage and dont really leave you many strong options to pressure/mixup on the opponents wakeup. The real strength of burnkicks is the options you have when you dont burnkick, but the opponent fears the burnkick. Thats absolutely powerful. Conditioning people to not attempt to tech potential throws because you keep burnkicking them then switching to just throwing->safejumping all day is a powerful tool. Only just worked out what you were meaning with the vHP - was thinking of all kinds of words beginning with V that could describe crouching, just got that you likely mean a down arrow ^^. Normally crouching normals are notated like cr.hp etc, standing normals are either just something like 'hp' or 'cl.hp' for close standing normals and f.hp for far standing normals. I apparently like writing about Viper. Id also like to welcome all our new Steam-sale (and likely EVO) empowered SF4 bretheren. Enjoy :o). How I use the keyboard layout(ring, middle, index on left down right, spacebar aka thumb for up) lets me do the cancel really easily, all I need to do is press spacebar with my thumb once during it(Doesn't really matter where). Though I exaggerated a bit, I can do the parts with pretty good consistency but the whole combo into SJC ultra is a bit tougher. I guess this might be a bit easier on keyboard though. Yeah I agree with the punishing, I think that where SJC ultra really shines is with hit confirming potential block strings, so when you see it hit you can hit confirm and ultra, though I would stick with 2 frame links(I can't even do those consistently yet and 1 framers are very inconsistent). Another thing is that apparently when you crossup with an aerial like her fierce kick aerial, when you do a light burn kick it goes back to the other side while a medium one barely doesn't, I think it can be tough for the opponent to see which kick you use... I feel like you could do a lot of different mixups with these in different situations, really interesting. And yeah I guess I should have said crouching <_< As I said I don't really know the notion system that well. I'm not sure about good block strings on jumpins or something, and when to use the overhead. I guess a nice thing about the overhead is that it closes the distance so you can go for another block string or a tick throw but on the other hand it's really slow... I'll practice a bit more in the training mode until I can do some comboes more frequently and figure out a few basic block strings and such until I go play the actual games. :3 I've now tested many more characters but Viper still seems the most fun, though I don't want to miss my destined character so I'll test them all a bit before finally choosing to stick with one =P | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
On July 15 2012 01:23 Excalibur_Z wrote: One thing I've noticed with Viper: rather than c.hp xx thunderknuckle feint c.hp, use s.hp xx thunderknuckle feint c.hp. The standing fierce gives much more leeway compared to c.hp (which I believe is 1-frame, in which case s.hp TK cancel c.hp is a 4-frame link since c.hp is +2 and s.hp is +5). You will almost always see top-level Viper players go for s.hp c.hp when they're doing FFF and it's probably for this reason. Na, cr hp xx hp tk feint xx cr hp is definitely not a 1 frame link ^^ You dont get more leeway from doing st hp over cr hp, the frame advantage on hit is irrelevant because your cancelling the recovery of the move. If you wouldnt cancel into a feint, then cr hp would be +2 and cl st hp would be +5, but this is hypothetical as no viper just does these punches raw without cancelling the recovery. At a high level of Viper play you gonna need both options and pick the right one situationally. The Cr.HP has 1 frame quicker startup than cl st HP and obviously has farther reach. There are situations where you can connect cr.HP feint cr.HP but cant connect st.HP feint cr.HP. On the other hand the st.HP has slightly less pushback and forces stand, which makes it a necessity to hit the combo in some situations on certain characters (crouching guile/rog for example iirc). | ||
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hordala
61 Posts
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On July 15 2012 02:01 hordala wrote: Do any notable pros play on the pc for SSF4:AE? I imagine most play on the ps3 version. | ||
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Lyter
United Kingdom2145 Posts
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YulyaVolkova
United Kingdom95 Posts
On July 15 2012 01:23 Excalibur_Z wrote: One thing I've noticed with Viper: rather than c.hp xx thunderknuckle feint c.hp, use s.hp xx thunderknuckle feint c.hp. The standing fierce gives much more leeway compared to c.hp (which I believe is 1-frame, in which case s.hp TK cancel c.hp is a 4-frame link since c.hp is +2 and s.hp is +5). You will almost always see top-level Viper players go for s.hp c.hp when they're doing FFF and it's probably for this reason. s.hp is +12 on hit when fierce tk cancelled, c.hp is +11, so theres a minor difference but not much. The downside of s.hp is that you need to be much closer to start the combo otherwise the s.hp will come out as f.hp and youll look silly :o). You generally start with s.hp if youre standing right next to the opponent and c.hp if youre a bit further away, but honestly it pretty much doesnt matter and you could just start with c.hp every time. c.hp starts up in 8 frames instead of 9 too, so its easier to get the punish in before they can block. I think the only real reason s.hp is often used is because its easier to walk forward into s.hp than walk forward into c.hp. So Ryu/whoever shoryus in your face and you block, hes pushed back a bit from you, you walk up and start your FFF punish. I find it easier to start with s.hp because sometimes if you walk forward and go straight into c.hp you can end up accidently getting lenient shoryu motions and seismoing instead. On July 15 2012 00:15 Shikyo wrote: Another thing is that apparently when you crossup with an aerial like her fierce kick aerial, when you do a light burn kick it goes back to the other side while a medium one barely doesn't, I think it can be tough for the opponent to see which kick you use... I feel like you could do a lot of different mixups with these in different situations, really interesting. Yeah if you crossup jumpin with roundhouse (hk) she has a cute little odd mixup where a cancelled light bk moves her backwards and basically un-crossups,so they have to block crossup then not crossup, which afaik is the only setup in the game where you can perform that this quickly. Medium and Hard burnkicks cancelled in that spot tho will just whiff (youll go far too far past them), so the real mixup of the situation is just that they have to watch for a burnkick and remember the odd blocking requirement. If you burnkick after crossup roundhouse, they block non-crossup, and theyre fine. EXCEPT actually the light bk will not always go back to the front depending on exact positioning+opponent hitbox, so actually its just kinda a random 50/50 ambiguous thing. The downside of this whole thing is that hitting a roundhouse crossup actually requires really good positioning+luck if done at random on a standing/crouching opponent - the spacing is pretty tight. You only generally see it in specific hard knockdown->crossup roundhouse (usually safejump) setups, often in the corner. It also will basically do fuck all damage with no powerful options to use off of the knockdown :p. Most of Vipers special mixup prowess (almost all) is basically just burnkicks and their ambiguous crossup/not crossup nature, and the fact that burnkicks exist making your opponent either go batshit and press lots of buttons because they dont want to eat yet another burnkick so they shoryu into the safe burnkick and get hit yet again, or shoryu into the bait and eat a FFF, or they start blocking and not pressing anything, in which case theyre pretty easy to beat with throws/slowly chipping them away with random stuff while you build lots of meter. Something you might see when you start playing a bit online is -> do lots of burnkick stuff (most of them totally safe if you can) -> opponent gets frustrated and starts mashing stuff, but still loses to the safe burnkicks most of the time -> you see hes starting to mash stuff, you start to look exactly like you do when you burnkick their wakeup, but instead bait -> FFF punishes all day -> opponent reevalutes and sees that theyre taking 350-450 damage if they get caught mashing out unsafe stuff, starts playing safe/just trying to block -> you see the adjustment and go into the throw/meter building/slow pressure style (which is also beating them pretty badly, just slower) Bounce about in these phases depending on how the guys playing, fun times :o). | ||
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whoso
Germany523 Posts
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 15 2012 06:40 whoso wrote: so i couldnt resist the temptation and bought AE on steam, and id love to get a bit more serious about it. this however means, i should get a stick over the keyboard (am i right?)...i read the sticks guide on shoryuken, but unfortunately i cannot find any seller offering the madcatz standard edition stick, i only find tournament edition...did they discontinue producing it? id rather not spent more than 100€ on a stick at the moment, but the other low budget alternatives (Hori Ex2 and some Datel-stick) get rather bad reviews overall : ( Using a layout of 1 2 3 light med heavy kick, 4 5 6 light med heavy punch(numpad), d left f down g right spacebar up and I have no problems with execution at least yet. I imagine a high quality stick would be better but I'd take keyboard over a controller anytime, at least for this game. Also keyboard might even be better than a low quality stick and it'll be easy to transition because the setups are prettys similiar Also I might need to abandon Viper because I'm having just way too much fun with Akuma .-. Just need to learn to combo Fireball -> FADC -> HP 100% of the time and I have a completely hit confirm-able 400+ damage combo for 2 bars off either blockstring or crossover *-* | ||
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whoso
Germany523 Posts
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