EPTNow that Lakers are out, there is only one thing I'm rooting for. LeBron getting his first ring.
NBA Playoffs (2010-2011) - Page 53
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matko5
Croatia385 Posts
Now that Lakers are out, there is only one thing I'm rooting for. LeBron getting his first ring. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
On May 09 2011 15:58 scaban84 wrote: He is MVP of the regular season. The league awards a regular season MVP and a post season MVP. Rose is not a contender for the latter. However he is still number 2 in playoff scoring in this post season. It will definitely be Nowitski at number 1. But you know everything about basketball because you look exclusively at FG% so I guess you're right. I honestly don't think that people on here defending Rose know what they are defending.... We never said Rose was bad. Hell, no one here even said he wasn't deserving of an MVP. However, for someone who has been the most hyped up MVP in a long time, he's playing pretty mediocre in the playoffs. He is playing inefficiently and not performing at the extraordinary expectations that many analysts and fans have unfairly put on him. It isn't his fault at all, he's not the player a lot of people say he is. I don't believe that he can carry the Bulls to the promised land this year. That isn't a knock against his future, nor his accomplishments throughout the season. I seriously question your basketball knowledge if you attempt to label his playoff performances (on average) as anything more than solid. | ||
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scaban84
United States1080 Posts
On May 09 2011 16:01 Ack1027 wrote: Can we stop talking about Derrick Rose until he plays at an elite level vs teams not named PACERS and HAWKS in the playoffs? The same rehash of arguments keeps happening while what reasonable educated posters like Ace are saying are panning out 100%. Bulls are struggling and Rose is not kobe/wade/lebron elite even vs bad teams at the bottom of the east. Cyric is too generous and its kinda dumb reading the same thing over and over. He played vs elite teams in the playoffs. When he was a Rookie he played the C's in the playoffs and tied Kareem Abdul Jabar's playoff debut. They took the Celtics to a game 7. He outperformed all the players you just mentioned in their first 3 years in the league. But I'm not a soi disant "reasonable educated" poster so maybe I should be careful posting facts. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
On May 09 2011 15:31 cLutZ wrote: Fans are not the ones making the choice I am talking about, owners are. Your postulate seems to be that Atlanta would have resigned Joe Johnson for max money, OKC would have paid Kevin Durant big money, and Miami would sign 3 huge contracts to elite players if their fans didn't care about winning? That's absurd. I'm not saying that an owner who spends lots of money always means a good team (for instance the Knicks always seem to just try and get entertaining players because that is what Knicks fans care about), but an owner who does not spend can realistically ruin a team (see Clippers, Kings, Raptors). Fan pressure is what forces owners to go out and build winners. I don't see our argument making any progress, so I will simply surrender and agree to disagree. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On May 09 2011 15:04 shmay wrote: Kobe isn't Kobe anymore, but the Kobe-Pau era is not done. They are still definite title contenders. I think the obvious move is to trade Bynum for Howard. Bynum's value has risen tremendously and he has even looked dominant at times -- making the trade seem quasi-reasonable. Perhaps the Lakers could unload Fisher, Walton, Black or Barnes as well? The main problem with Bynum is that he is incredibly injury prone and Gasol needs help down low, every game. The Lakers leaned on him way too much during the season and they paid for it in the playoffs. One thing that always puzzled me during the season was the complete lack of play time for Derek Caracter. Though a rookie, he has a Perkins-like edge, good basketball IQ, and could have provided some much needed help down low while Bynum was hurt. Certainly beats Barnes or Blake. Artest is also basically done -- imagine if they had kept Ariza (who torched them in the first round)? The Lakers have built up way too much cruft (Artest, Blake, Barnes, Walton, and Fisher). Dunno what they can do about that. Will be interesting to see where they go from here. Not necessarily a good argument. You can't just say that "Ariza > Artest" so if the Lakers had kept Ariza they would be better now. There's no telling if the Lakers would have won last year without Artest, or how Ariza would gel with the team they have now, etc. Also: Caracter is a PF... Blake = PG, Barnes = SF. You can't even talk about those guys in the same sentence, it isn't "well we put Barnes in the game over Caracter" they would never ever ever be interchangeable. Phil Jackson doesn't like playing rookies, which is why him and Ebanks almost never got playing time. The Lakers never leaned on anyone in the regular season. Their play was up and down all season (they opened REALLY strong, then struggled immensely, then played REALLY well, then struggled again). It was an all around thing. In fact, the biggest change from the regular season to the post-season was: their bench played ATROCIOUSLY bad in the playoffs, and Gasol played very badly. However, poor bench play in the playoffs pretty much plagued LA for the past 3 years. You can't really blame the bench or even Gasol. They got outhustled, outworked, and out-shot. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On May 09 2011 16:23 Xeris wrote: Meh... Dirk was MVP in 07 when Dallas lost first round I think that's not a very good argument >_> It is. Dirk didn't under perform during that series from what I remember. @QZ: FG% matters. A lot. We're talking about thousands of shots here. It's the difference between being unstoppable on offense (MJ, Bird, CP3, Pierce,Wade, Lebron) and teams just letting you shoot your team out of contention (Kobe when he goes hero mode, Rose, Iverson, Marbury, Ben Gordon). People have short memories and fanatical attachments to players but objectively there is a gap between players' abilities to score and it matters. | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
Obviously there are subtleties, but arguing over who shoots a couple % higher than who and who gets a couple more foul calls here and there is silly. This is the NBA in recent times, and every star who has the ball a lot is going to get a ridiculous number of calls, especially if they're on one of the established franchises. | ||
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shmay
United States1091 Posts
On May 09 2011 16:28 Xeris wrote: Not necessarily a good argument. You can't just say that "Ariza > Artest" so if the Lakers had kept Ariza they would be better now. There's no telling if the Lakers would have won last year without Artest, or how Ariza would gel with the team they have now, etc. Also: Caracter is a PF... Blake = PG, Barnes = SF. You can't even talk about those guys in the same sentence, it isn't "well we put Barnes in the game over Caracter" they would never ever ever be interchangeable. Phil Jackson doesn't like playing rookies, which is why him and Ebanks almost never got playing time. The Lakers never leaned on anyone in the regular season. Their play was up and down all season (they opened REALLY strong, then struggled immensely, then played REALLY well, then struggled again). It was an all around thing. In fact, the biggest change from the regular season to the post-season was: their bench played ATROCIOUSLY bad in the playoffs, and Gasol played very badly. However, poor bench play in the playoffs pretty much plagued LA for the past 3 years. You can't really blame the bench or even Gasol. They got outhustled, outworked, and out-shot. They already won one with Ariza, during which he played really well and had a lot of clutch plays. He was young and had tremendous upside. Would they have won last year with Ariza and no Artest? Impossible to tell obviously, but I thought the Ariza Artest trade was stupid then and stupid now ( but then I forget if had something to do with money ). I like Artest -- he's just at the end of his career -- and I really like Ariza. They could have really used Ariza this year. The triangle doesn't need a true point guard. You could bump each player up a position with Kobe and Artest as the guards (thus replacing Blake). Or Caracter could have bumped Odom down to sf (replacing Barnes). By leaned on I meant played a lot of minutes. Gasol was their only true big man, even though he's not a true C. He had to be in there most of the time with Bynum out. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On May 09 2011 16:37 Ace wrote: You know this is exactly why I stopped posting in these NBA threads. To say Derrick Rose is even close to the level of Wade or Lebron when both of them in their 2nd year were vastly better than Rose is now shows a new level of ignorance. Just pathetic. Chicago Fan, full disclosure. Rose is never going to be comparable to Lebron, but I think that Wade is actually a very close analogue to him. If Rose had better offensive options on the team (Aka Young Shaq) he would be able to be more efficient. Also note Wade had an extra year in college that Rose did not, which is important for maturity, etc. I don't find it at all implausible that a 4th year, or possibly 3rd year Derrick Rose could have led the 2006 Heat to a title. They are similarly explosive, and both struggle outside shooting. Both are at their best when the refs are on their side. See '06 finals, game 3 of the recent Hawks Series, Game 1 of the Celtics-Heat series. Rose is Wade - 1 inch and a ring. | ||
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scaban84
United States1080 Posts
On May 09 2011 16:37 Ace wrote: You know this is exactly why I stopped posting in these NBA threads. To say Derrick Rose is even close to the level of Wade or Lebron when both of them in their 2nd year were vastly better than Rose is now shows a new level of ignorance. Just pathetic. It is. Dirk didn't under perform during that series from what I remember. @QZ: FG% matters. A lot. We're talking about thousands of shots here. It's the difference between being unstoppable on offense (MJ, Bird, CP3, Pierce,Wade, Lebron) and teams just letting you shoot your team out of contention (Kobe when he goes hero mode, Rose, Iverson, Marbury, Ben Gordon). People have short memories and fanatical attachments to players but objectively there is a gap between players' abilities to score and it matters. Ace you have been the one consistently throwing insults on this thread. A new level of ignorance? Pathetic? One simple fact. Lebron didn't get his team to the playoffs when he joined the Cavs for two consecutive years. Rose did, with the same roster as prior years. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
Would they have won last year with Ariza and no Artest? Impossible to tell obviously, but I thought the Ariza Artest trade was stupid then and stupid now ( but then I forget if had something to do with money ). I like Artest -- he's just at the end of his career -- and I really like Ariza. They could have really used Ariza this year. Hindsight 20/20 obviously. Most people praised the Artest trade when it happened. He was a consistent double digit scorer who played some of the toughest defense in the league. Hard to put a price on multiple appearance players of all NBA defense teams who can put some points on the board. Ariza was great too, but to say that it was a stupid trade is a little bit of a stretch. | ||
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JohnnyYen
United States313 Posts
Rick Carlisle (on Phil's retirement) How much time can he spend meditating... in Montana... or smoking peyote? Phil Jackson Well the first thing is, you don't smoke peyote. Fucking classic. The Nixon quote was hilarious as well. :D | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
Lebron didn't get his team to the playoffs when he joined the Cavs for two consecutive years. Rose did, with the same roster as prior years. Lebron was drafted to a last place 17-65 team, Rose came into a better situation. | ||
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ilikejokes
United States217 Posts
On May 09 2011 16:37 Ace wrote: You know this is exactly why I stopped posting in these NBA threads. To say Derrick Rose is even close to the level of Wade or Lebron when both of them in their 2nd year were vastly better than Rose is now shows a new level of ignorance. Just pathetic. First off, it's Rose's 3rd year. In his 1st year he and a Bulls team crippled by Vinny Del Negro's awful coaching took the defending champion Celtics to 7 games with a record 7 OT periods, a playoffs feat that neither LeBron nor Wade matched in their rookie seasons (the Cavs finished below .500 and didn't even make the playoffs in an anemic Eastern Conference in James' rookie season, while Wade was eliminated in 6 games by the Pacers in the semifinals). Since a player's age is way more relevant in terms of assessing his skill level and potential than what # season he's on, let's look at LeBron and Wade when they were Rose's age: Lebron was 21 in his 3rd year (05-06): 31 points on 23 shots/game, 6.6 assists, 7 rebounds. The Cavs this year finished 50-32 (2nd in the Central Division, knocked out of the Conference Semifinals in 7 games by the Pistons. Wade was 22 in his first season (03-04) when he averaged 16 points on 13 shots, grabbed 4 rebounds, and dished 4.5 assists per game. Just for argument's sake though I'll look at Wade's 3rd season (05-06): 27 points on 19 shots, but he also jacked up 75 3's and only connected on 17% of them, and the league was handing free throws out to slashing perimeter players like party favors in this season (so even though Wade was a 75% free throw shooter, he still munched on 629 freebies); 6.7 assists and 5.7 rebounds per game. Yeah he won the title with Miami (thanks, Shaq!) but it was more like it was stolen from the Mavs by the league, what with it being the worst-officiated playoffs series/finals in NBA history. The Heat finished 50-32 in the regular season despite Shaq averaging 20-10 on 60% shooting for the season. Derrick Rose, at 21 years old, averaged 25 points on just under 20 shots, connected on 86% of his freebies and 33% of his treys, dished 7.7 assists and pulled down 4 rebounds for good measure. As pointed out earlier, he's only the 3rd player in the last god-knows-how-long to score 2000 points and dish 600 assists in the regular season--the other two being MJ and LeBron, and he scored or assisted on 45% of the Bulls' points this season. AND (I can't stress this point enough) the Bulls finished with the best record in the league--at 62-20, Rose in his 3rd season was 12 wins better than either Wade or LeBron. And I only even look at it as a fair comparison with regards to LeBron, since Wade had plenty of help on that Miami team. Considering he's underperformed in about 7 out of 9, unless you think MVPs should be shooting below the league average then I guess you're right. I don't even know how to respond to this. Multiple posts have addressed this point already and you just don't seem to read them. It is. Dirk didn't under perform during that series from what I remember. Yeah, a 1-seed getting knocked out by an 8-seed isn't under-performing at all. You seem to place a lot of weight on advanced metrics like efficiency and not a lot on really basic things like wins. Wins are a lot more important than any advanced metric. Plus, since you have such a huge bonus for advanced metrics, chew on this: PER, playoffs and finals (basketball-reference.com) LeBron James (21 years old): 23.2 LeBron James, 3rd season: 24.3 LeBron James, this season: 26.5 Dwyane Wade (22 years old): 17.7 Dwyane Wade, 3rd season: 26.9 (*cough* worst officiated finals ever *cough*) Dwyane Wade, this season: 28.4 Derrick Rose, this season: 26.4 So he's outperforming James' 1st and 3rd seasons and he's 0.1 rating behind him this year (despite the fact that LeBron is playing alongside two bona fide All-stars and Rose has none), he's outperforming Wade's rookie season (when he was a year older than Rose is now) and is only 0.4 rating behind Dwyane Wade's "phantom foul on every drive" title run (which boosts PER like a MF). Really, the only major disparity here is between Rose and Wade this playoffs, and that's easy to explain: when you have LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and a bunch of glorified 3 point specialists spacing the floor for you (and setting you up, in James' case) it's not exactly impressive to be that efficient. It's pretty much expected. Rose is 3rd in PER among players still in the playoffs (Chris Paul is in 1st overall, at 28.8) behind Superfriends Wade and James (and he's only 0.1 rating out of 2nd place despite this). So, yeah, I'd definitely say he's "underperforming." | ||
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shmay
United States1091 Posts
On May 09 2011 16:59 Stoids wrote: Hindsight 20/20 obviously. Most people praised the Artest trade when it happened. He was a consistent double digit scorer who played some of the toughest defense in the league. Hard to put a price on multiple appearance players of all NBA defense teams who can put some points on the board. Ariza was great too, but to say that it was a stupid trade is a little bit of a stretch. Yeah stupid was the wrong word. Artest was crucial to their title run last year. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
Wins are a lot more important than any advanced metric. Although I appreciate you putting thought into your post, I'm going to have to disagree with you a little bit here. Wins are important, we can all agree there. However, when looking at who is the most valuable player, looking simply as wins is pretty shallow. Rose has some talent around him who looks to him as their leader. They have totally bought into the system and play some of the most solid defense in the league. Derrick Rose contributed to the Bulls 62 regular season wins, but he didn't win them alone. Wins matter, but after a certain baseline number of wins (48-50?) should become a little less relevant. Talent discrepancy among teams becomes too big of a factor. I am biased. I am by no means an expert, nor do I claim my opinion to be higher than anyone else. I personally like looking at how efficient a player is. The thing that makes me love Dirk to the degree I do is how efficiently he scores. I love looking at his stat line and being quite certain he shot above .475. Additionally, despite common belief, Dirk is one of the best closers in the league. My appreciations are different than other peoples. That's the entire point of having an opinion though. I personally value efficiency in scoring over brute points. | ||
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ilikejokes
United States217 Posts
Rose has some talent around him who looks to him as their leader. They have totally bought into the system and play some of the most solid defense in the league. This is a huge part of what makes him the MVP, though. Don't get me wrong, I value efficiency too. I'm just saying that it's mathematically incorrect to say that Rose isn't an efficient player. He's one spot ahead of Dirk in playoff PER this season. When it takes Rose 32 shots to score 34 points that's definitely worse than if he did it in 30, 28, 26 shots... you get the idea. But when none of the other Bulls are scoring, Rose is going to take that many shots, and a lot of them won't be pretty, but that's part of what makes Rose so good--unlike Kobe when he was young, Rose knows how to take over a game without completely freezing out his teammates. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
On May 09 2011 17:37 ilikejokes wrote: This is a huge part of what makes him the MVP, though. Don't get me wrong, I value efficiency too. I'm just saying that it's mathematically incorrect to say that Rose isn't an efficient player. He's one spot ahead of Dirk in playoff PER this season. When it takes Rose 32 shots to score 34 points that's definitely worse than if he did it in 30, 28, 26 shots... you get the idea. But when none of the other Bulls are scoring, Rose is going to take that many shots, and a lot of them won't be pretty, but that's part of what makes Rose so good--unlike Kobe when he was young, Rose knows how to take over a game without completely freezing out his teammates. PER isn't an offensive/shooting efficiency statistic, simply how much you contribute per minute in totality on the court (defense, assists, etc.). Actually, one of the biggest complaints about PER is how it rewards taking a high volume of shots. Lastly, PER rewards inefficient shooting. To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins: "Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots." Also, I don't think Rose was terribly inefficient during the season. He shot 44.5%, which isn't a stunning number by any means, but still above the league average of about 42-43%. The playoffs are a different story though. He is shooting roughly 40% right now, and that number is dropping. He is trying to force it a little too much. I think he is falling into the same pitfall Durant had at one point, where he had to try to live up the the expectations bestowed upon him. | ||
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ilikejokes
United States217 Posts
Is Rose shooting too much in the playoffs? Probably. But when the other Bulls combine to drop a fat turd on the court, it's hard to argue with his effort. Plus, if you watched the game today, Rose should have had 8-9 more freebies. One of the officials even admitted after the fact that he should have called a foul on a Rose 3-pointer. | ||
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The Chief
Australia138 Posts
On May 09 2011 16:37 Ace wrote: I am going to quote this due to the fact i have been saying this for the past 3 months and nobody would listen. You know this is exactly why I stopped posting in these NBA threads. To say Derrick Rose is even close to the level of Wade or Lebron when both of them in their 2nd year were vastly better than Rose is now shows a new level of ignorance. Just pathetic. Everything Ace has been saying has been 98% spot on because i may disagree with certain areas (just tiny things). The dude knows exactly what he's talking about and is having to re type everything he is saying because it just seems like certain people are clueless. In a nutshell, Rose is MVP this year but he's not the best player in the league this year as well, He is not yet at the level of say the Top 5 players are but he is closing the gap. | ||
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