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PC Games Sales Thread - Page 524

Forum Index > General Games
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WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 04 2014 21:43 GMT
#10461
On July 05 2014 06:40 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2014 06:33 Gorsameth wrote:
Still very minor stuff when compared to some of other morality systems like for example KotoR.

I think that's actually quite debatable. KotOR's only mechanical influence is on Force Power costs (which are irrelevant in the long run), and in terms of those, the changes by alignments are tradeoffs rather than pure benefits. The cost penalty to using off-alignment powers is actually harsher than the cost benefit for using same-alignment powers, so unless you were already going in purely with the intention of min-maxing and only using same-alignment powers, the net benefit of the alignment bonuses are mixed, whereas ME's alignment bonuses are purely beneficial.


Light side mastery
Guardian: +3 STR
Sentinel: +3 CON
Consular: +3 CHA

Dark side mastery
Guardian: +1d8 damage
Sentinel: Poison Immunity
Consular: +50 to Force Points

Okay, some of the Dark side ones are negligible. The others, not so much.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 04 2014 21:54 GMT
#10462
Mastery bonuses are only applied to the main player character in the PC version of the game

Probably why I missed those, lol.
Moderator
Random()
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
July 04 2014 21:56 GMT
#10463
On July 04 2014 11:39 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2014 06:38 gruff wrote:
ME1 was fun but calling the story good is a bit of a stretch. It's every popular space opera fiction squeezed into one game. It's fun though.

It's basically Star Control (aka Ur'Quan Masters). Or the Relevation Space series of books.


Ur'Quan Masters is Star Control II and ME story is more like Star Control III (a hyper-evolved civilization exterminating sentient life for no apparent reason) that everyone hated and forgot, but its ending and explanation are still much more satisfying than ME's.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 04 2014 22:05 GMT
#10464
On July 05 2014 06:43 Gorsameth wrote:
they are purely beneficial but the benefit is minor is my point. Your play through wont suffer because you dont choose X.
Same with the choices themselves. Sure paragon might better from a story standpoint but it again has no significant impact on the gameplay of the game.

I mean, both games are easy enough that the effect of alignment isn't enough to make or break a playthrough.

Fundamentally, both games really fail to create an alignment system of real consequence. The purpose of alignment is to create a framework for decision-making that dynamically alters the flow of the game based on the choices you make and how you interact with people (Planescape: Torment does this well). Neither game presents their alignment systems in a manner that actually has real consequences outside of your ability to slaughter your own party members if you choose to.
Moderator
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 04 2014 22:14 GMT
#10465
On July 05 2014 07:05 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2014 06:43 Gorsameth wrote:
they are purely beneficial but the benefit is minor is my point. Your play through wont suffer because you dont choose X.
Same with the choices themselves. Sure paragon might better from a story standpoint but it again has no significant impact on the gameplay of the game.

I mean, both games are easy enough that the effect of alignment isn't enough to make or break a playthrough.

Fundamentally, both games really fail to create an alignment system of real consequence. The purpose of alignment is to create a framework for decision-making that dynamically alters the flow of the game based on the choices you make and how you interact with people (Planescape: Torment does this well). Neither game presents their alignment systems in a manner that actually has real consequences outside of your ability to slaughter your own party members if you choose to.


I think that's generally why I liked Mass Effect's morality more than other Bioware games. They dropped the pretenses that all these morality choices were actually important. You could be a dick, or a nice person, but you were still saving the universe either way.

It was probably the first time I just made "choices" based on whatever I felt like doing. Almost every other game I've played with any kind of morality system ended up being me trying to figure out what kind of rewards I would get at the end of it all.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Absentia
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom973 Posts
July 04 2014 22:17 GMT
#10466
On July 05 2014 07:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2014 07:05 TheYango wrote:
On July 05 2014 06:43 Gorsameth wrote:
they are purely beneficial but the benefit is minor is my point. Your play through wont suffer because you dont choose X.
Same with the choices themselves. Sure paragon might better from a story standpoint but it again has no significant impact on the gameplay of the game.

I mean, both games are easy enough that the effect of alignment isn't enough to make or break a playthrough.

Fundamentally, both games really fail to create an alignment system of real consequence. The purpose of alignment is to create a framework for decision-making that dynamically alters the flow of the game based on the choices you make and how you interact with people (Planescape: Torment does this well). Neither game presents their alignment systems in a manner that actually has real consequences outside of your ability to slaughter your own party members if you choose to.


I think that's generally why I liked Mass Effect's morality more than other Bioware games. They dropped the pretenses that all these morality choices were actually important. You could be a dick, or a nice person, but you were still saving the universe either way.

It was probably the first time I just made "choices" based on whatever I felt like doing. Almost every other game I've played with any kind of morality system ended up being me trying to figure out what kind of rewards I would get at the end of it all.


Have you played any of Obsidian's RPGs?
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 04 2014 22:28 GMT
#10467
On July 05 2014 07:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I think that's generally why I liked Mass Effect's morality more than other Bioware games. They dropped the pretenses that all these morality choices were actually important. You could be a dick, or a nice person, but you were still saving the universe either way.

I just don't see how they dropped those pretenses. There's still a mechanical benefit to extreme alignment, alignment still locks you out of certain speech paths (which are superfluous and generally inconsequential anyway in both games), and all of it is still ultimately just as poorly done as any of their other games.

There doesn't seem anything out of this that seems unique to Mass Effect here. You could have played KotOR the same way, and had the same experience--you just chose not to and therefore felt Mass Effect was better.
Moderator
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-04 22:41:09
July 04 2014 22:39 GMT
#10468
I think that what Mass Effect added in term of good/evil alignment compared to KotOR comes down to the better dialogues and voice acting. It's much more fun for me to hear the guy act like a douche (even if nothing comes out of it) rather than just read some mildly assholish text. I was more motivated to use the "evil" dialogue options that way. I don't really buy into the RPGs which make every single character except yours have a voice and actually speak.

And as long as games won't have procedural dialogue and quest generation, you won't have awesomely deep and broad dialogue trees that depend on what you've been doing and how you've been answering since the beginning of the game. People need to understand the amount of work and lines of dialogues that would imply.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 04 2014 22:41 GMT
#10469
On July 05 2014 07:39 ZenithM wrote:
And as long as games won't have procedural dialogue and quest generation, you won't have awesomely deep and broad dialogue trees that depend on what you've been doing and how you've been answering since the beginning of the game. People need to understand the amount of work and lines of dialogues that would imply.

We had that to a convincing enough degree during the Black Isle era of the late 90s and early 2000s. It's only when CRPGs moved to consoles and placed heavier emphasis on voice acting and animation where that took a step backward.
Moderator
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-04 22:47:24
July 04 2014 22:47 GMT
#10470
Yeah I agree. I think we may see some more of those games in the future. I hear Divinity: Original Sin is not bad. And I'm looking forward to Project Eternity and Torment Numenera.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
July 05 2014 01:27 GMT
#10471
On July 05 2014 06:43 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2014 06:40 TheYango wrote:
On July 05 2014 06:33 Gorsameth wrote:
Still very minor stuff when compared to some of other morality systems like for example KotoR.

I think that's actually quite debatable. KotOR's only mechanical influence is on Force Power costs (which are irrelevant in the long run), and in terms of those, the changes by alignments are tradeoffs rather than pure benefits. The cost penalty to using off-alignment powers is actually harsher than the cost benefit for using same-alignment powers, so unless you were already going in purely with the intention of min-maxing and only using same-alignment powers, the net benefit of the alignment bonuses are mixed, whereas ME's alignment bonuses are purely beneficial.


Light side mastery
Guardian: +3 STR
Sentinel: +3 CON
Consular: +3 CHA

Dark side mastery
Guardian: +1d8 damage
Sentinel: Poison Immunity
Consular: +50 to Force Points

Okay, some of the Dark side ones are negligible. The others, not so much.


Thing is, KotOR 2 gave you a bonus ability at the end too. Light Side one cast all light side buffs at the same time, dark one stunlocked and killed every enemy in the game excluding the final boss.

Because that's balanced.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 05 2014 02:00 GMT
#10472
Well that doesn't really have a bearing on the discussion at hand because you received that ability even for non-extreme alignment. You didn't have to be 100% light/dark to receive the bonus ability.
Moderator
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
July 05 2014 06:49 GMT
#10473
On July 05 2014 07:28 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2014 07:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I think that's generally why I liked Mass Effect's morality more than other Bioware games. They dropped the pretenses that all these morality choices were actually important. You could be a dick, or a nice person, but you were still saving the universe either way.

I just don't see how they dropped those pretenses. There's still a mechanical benefit to extreme alignment, alignment still locks you out of certain speech paths (which are superfluous and generally inconsequential anyway in both games), and all of it is still ultimately just as poorly done as any of their other games.

There doesn't seem anything out of this that seems unique to Mass Effect here. You could have played KotOR the same way, and had the same experience--you just chose not to and therefore felt Mass Effect was better.


Can't remember anything in Mass Effect that certain alignment would lock you out of. Not having enough locked you out, but the thing was you could always build up both. In fact...being extreme was usually a detriment, because having a good meter in both gave you access to all the items, better stats, and more dialogue options.

KotOR, being light side meant you could never access dark side options, and vice versa. Being neutral meant you had access neither. And it also limited your gameplay options as well, because you either picked a side from the start to choose your powers/classes, or you made all your decisions to stay on the neutral line to use both (sub-optimally).
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Coppermantis
Profile Joined June 2012
United States845 Posts
July 05 2014 08:09 GMT
#10474
On July 05 2014 15:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2014 07:28 TheYango wrote:
On July 05 2014 07:14 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I think that's generally why I liked Mass Effect's morality more than other Bioware games. They dropped the pretenses that all these morality choices were actually important. You could be a dick, or a nice person, but you were still saving the universe either way.

I just don't see how they dropped those pretenses. There's still a mechanical benefit to extreme alignment, alignment still locks you out of certain speech paths (which are superfluous and generally inconsequential anyway in both games), and all of it is still ultimately just as poorly done as any of their other games.

There doesn't seem anything out of this that seems unique to Mass Effect here. You could have played KotOR the same way, and had the same experience--you just chose not to and therefore felt Mass Effect was better.


Can't remember anything in Mass Effect that certain alignment would lock you out of. Not having enough locked you out, but the thing was you could always build up both. In fact...being extreme was usually a detriment, because having a good meter in both gave you access to all the items, better stats, and more dialogue options.

KotOR, being light side meant you could never access dark side options, and vice versa. Being neutral meant you had access neither. And it also limited your gameplay options as well, because you either picked a side from the start to choose your powers/classes, or you made all your decisions to stay on the neutral line to use both (sub-optimally).


+ Show Spoiler +
The argument between Miranda and Jack (and maybe Tali and Legion as well) requires you to have a certain % of the Paragon/Renegade available up to that point, rather than a set amount. At least that's what I've found when investigating why I could never resolve it, as there is no official consensus.
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-05 09:09:07
July 05 2014 09:08 GMT
#10475
IIRC if you didn't follow either Renegade or Paragon through during your ME2 project

+ Show Spoiler +
you would get locked out of Miranda vs Jack and Tali vs Legion, this meant that you could only choose one(and you would get loyalty with that 1). Meaning that if you wanted your whole squad to survive the to the end you had to go to extreme paragon or renegade.


I actually liked ME3's mechanic, it meant that you could be a dick to people you thought were a dick or if you felt like being a dick but still be nice to others, you weren''t forced into options.
WriterXiao8~~
FT.aCt)Sony
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1048 Posts
July 05 2014 16:07 GMT
#10476
Have a 50% off Portal 2 coupon on Steam that's tradeable if any are interested. ($19.99 game / 9.995 off the price).
Coppermantis
Profile Joined June 2012
United States845 Posts
July 06 2014 02:06 GMT
#10477
On July 05 2014 18:08 Kipsate wrote:
IIRC if you didn't follow either Renegade or Paragon through during your ME2 project

+ Show Spoiler +
you would get locked out of Miranda vs Jack and Tali vs Legion, this meant that you could only choose one(and you would get loyalty with that 1). Meaning that if you wanted your whole squad to survive the to the end you had to go to extreme paragon or renegade.


I actually liked ME3's mechanic, it meant that you could be a dick to people you thought were a dick or if you felt like being a dick but still be nice to others, you weren''t forced into options.

+ Show Spoiler +
You can have non-loyal squad members survive as long as you don't assign them to any task or have them in your party at the final stage. They're certain or at least more likely to die in ME3 (depending on the character), though, and not solving Tali v Legion will prevent you from brokering peace.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-06 02:31:33
July 06 2014 02:30 GMT
#10478
On July 05 2014 07:39 ZenithM wrote:
I think that what Mass Effect added in term of good/evil alignment compared to KotOR comes down to the better dialogues and voice acting. It's much more fun for me to hear the guy act like a douche (even if nothing comes out of it) rather than just read some mildly assholish text. I was more motivated to use the "evil" dialogue options that way. I don't really buy into the RPGs which make every single character except yours have a voice and actually speak.

And as long as games won't have procedural dialogue and quest generation, you won't have awesomely deep and broad dialogue trees that depend on what you've been doing and how you've been answering since the beginning of the game. People need to understand the amount of work and lines of dialogues that would imply.


KotOR absolutely had voice acting...

EDIT: I realized you meant for the PC after I posted, disregard.
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
July 07 2014 20:32 GMT
#10479
20% off voucher on Green Man Gaming, works on Dragon Age: Inquisition pre-order (59.99€).
I don't think I'll get DAI for now, as I've already gotten many games to play with during the Summer Sales, but the game looks promising enough that you folks might be interested. Beware, it requires Origin to play :D
Valiver
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Caldeum1977 Posts
July 08 2014 18:03 GMT
#10480
New Humble Bundle is out - it's a 2K one and has bioshocks, XCOMs, and more.
https://www.humblebundle.com/
Writer
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