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The vanilla Oblivion and Morrowind were both not better than 6/10 or something for me.
The worlds were way, way too generic in Oblivion and way too bland in Morrowind (even by the standards of graphics at the time it came out).Both of these things are something that Bethesda openly admitted to a lot of times (via Todd Howard), mostly during the times when they were marketing for Fallout 3, because that world was mostly hand-designed. It bothered me a great deal, because in none of the two games I ever had the feeling of exploring places. Yeah, you'd go to new places but you wouldn't actually find anything new - just the same old things with a little bit of a different shape. On the other hand, that was one of the really strong points of Fallout 3 for me, that "environmental storytelling" that they've been talking about a couple of times. If it's anywhere near as good in Skyrim, this will be the first ES game I really love.
The combat has always been kinda boring - in Morrowind it was worse though, with the RNG based hitting (don't know which ruleset they used exactly) and missing which imo just doesn't fit into that style or real time action combat at all. In Oblivion it was better, but it had this terrible "weightless" feel to it, like most of my actions didn't have any effect on my opponent. Skyrim seems to still have that, even though it looks like they make a lot more things to make up for it (finishing moves, more virtual force feedback through sound, etc.)
The dialogue and story has always been terribly written. In Morrowind, you'd ask an NPC a simple question and he'd answer with a wall of text. Every NPC seemed to be a writer by heart or something. Really, who talks like that? That stuff is unbelievable and also lame to read, imo. Admittedly the only ES game I ever played more than 20 or so hours is Oblivion so it might actually get better in Morrowind later, but I seriously doubt it. In Oblivion it was the other bad end of the spectrum: The main story was so generic it made my brain hurt. Evil guys from other dimension invade world, you have to go kill boss of the evil guys? Come on...
Not to mention the ton of bugs that existed in those games without all the mods and fan patches.
I could go on, but like I said 6/10.
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On November 03 2011 15:31 heishe wrote:
The vanilla Oblivion and Morrowind were both not better than 6/10 or something for me.
The worlds were way, way too generic in Oblivion and way too bland in Morrowind (even by the standards of graphics at the time it came out).Both of these things are something that Bethesda openly admitted to a lot of times (via Todd Howard), mostly during the times when they were marketing for Fallout 3, because that world was mostly hand-designed. It bothered me a great deal, because in none of the two games I ever had the feeling of exploring places. Yeah, you'd go to new places but you wouldn't actually find anything new - just the same old things with a little bit of a different shape. On the other hand, that was one of the really strong points of Fallout 3 for me, that "environmental storytelling" that they've been talking about a couple of times. If it's anywhere near as good in Skyrim, this will be the first ES game I really love.
The combat has always been kinda boring - in Morrowind it was worse though, with the RNG based hitting (don't know which ruleset they used exactly) and missing which imo just doesn't fit into that style or real time action combat at all. In Oblivion it was better, but it had this terrible "weightless" feel to it, like most of my actions didn't have any effect on my opponent. Skyrim seems to still have that, even though it looks like they make a lot more things to make up for it (finishing moves, more virtual force feedback through sound, etc.)
The dialogue and story has always been terribly written. In Morrowind, you'd ask an NPC a simple question and he'd answer with a wall of text. Every NPC seemed to be a writer by heart or something. Really, who talks like that? That stuff is unbelievable and also lame to read, imo. Admittedly the only ES game I ever played more than 20 or so hours is Oblivion so it might actually get better in Morrowind later, but I seriously doubt it. In Oblivion it was the other bad end of the spectrum: The main story was so generic it made my brain hurt. Evil guys from other dimension invade world, you have to go kill boss of the evil guys? Come on...
Not to mention the ton of bugs that existed in those games without all the mods and fan patches.
I could go on, but like I said 6/10.
Man, I disagree. There were a ton of totally unique dungeons in morrowind. The landscape was pretty similar though...
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On November 03 2011 15:15 Hikko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 15:13 bokeevboke wrote:
Usually, when companies show pre-release videos to demonstrate awesome graphics or random 'cool' features like spells in two hands, and do not show actual full-length gameplay, and no demo available, I suspect that game will be utter shit and boring as hell. Hope I'm wrong. I'll definitely wait reviews from reliable sources before I buy it. Having seen the video of the first 25 minutes of the game, even the tutorial seems not to disappoint. Buy this game!
I haven't seen that 25 min video. Where I can find it? Can't find in youtube, i'm lousy at searching.
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On November 03 2011 15:37 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 15:15 Hikko wrote:On November 03 2011 15:13 bokeevboke wrote:
Usually, when companies show pre-release videos to demonstrate awesome graphics or random 'cool' features like spells in two hands, and do not show actual full-length gameplay, and no demo available, I suspect that game will be utter shit and boring as hell. Hope I'm wrong. I'll definitely wait reviews from reliable sources before I buy it. Having seen the video of the first 25 minutes of the game, even the tutorial seems not to disappoint. Buy this game! I haven't seen that 25 min video. Where I can find it? Can't find in youtube, i'm lousy at searching.
I chanced upon it on Youtube at work a few days ago, but Bethesda has been really vigorously shutting down streams and copyright claiming the youtube videos on it. If you find it, WATCH IT IMMEDIATELY, because it'll be taken down really fast.
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@heishe definitely agree. Modding really helps TES (well at least on PC where it is supported). If only JRPGs (like FF) too were released on PC and featured modding (like good old WRPGs [for the most part]).
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All this talk of modding finally got me to try Nehrim. Nehrim isn't a mod, but rather a total conversion for Oblivion. I was kind of shocked somebody actually *finished* a total conversion for Oblivion, as I think there's a ton that are still now in progress or were abandoned in the middle of development. The gameplay still has an Elder Scrolls feel, but there's a brand new story in a different world, a new soundtrack, and a lot of different mechanics. It is voice-acted, but in German with English subs. Check it out if you want an Elder Scrolls fix before Skyrim is out. http://www.nehrim.de/indexEV.html
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Crap, I should've bought the hardware when I had the opportunity...
who would've thought that the hardware (and monitor) prices would go up about 20% within such a short period of time... :o
Anyways, definitely going to get this game and upgrade my hardware just for it.
positive sideeffect: I can play starcraft 2 on the highest settings. :-)
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On November 03 2011 15:21 Jindo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 14:54 Xanbatou wrote:
Oblivion was not a great game IMO. I would say it's a good game, and nothing more. I say this because of two huge problems:
1. Generic dungeons: All of the non-quest related dungeons were completely generic. All loot was random, and there was nothing remarkable about any of them. This contrasts heavily with Morrowind. I still remember that cave near Seyda Need with that Wizard Ring. I also remember some cave with a vampire in it that has a sweet unique bow.
2. Level-scaling of enemies: It's retarded to have bandits wearing daedric armor. On top of that, you never get the feeling that you are getting stronger. Why the hell can you save the day when all the guards are ALWAYS stronger than you?
Those two things ruined oblivion for me. Sure, the quests were fun, but exploring was not rewarding at all. Don't forget the retarded UI, the tiresome leveling system, the non-necessary removal of skills, encyclopedia dialogue, terrible(and identical) voice acting, horrible animation, and streamlined gameplay.
To be fair, most of those are criticisms of Morrowind as well.
Most of the Oblivion criticisms are the streamlined gameplay to appeal to a larger subscriber base (which worked wonderfully if you look at sales). Adding a quest log, simplifying skills, fast travel (tbh I never understood the quest log or fast travel qq... just don't use it...), etc sucks for a hardcore player who wants things to be complicated, but it turns off so many casual players that it is almost NEVER worth the money loss.
There's so much "QQ nobody makes games like they used to" criticism everywhere... it just isn't half as profitable.
On November 03 2011 15:31 heishe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The vanilla Oblivion and Morrowind were both not better than 6/10 or something for me.
The worlds were way, way too generic in Oblivion and way too bland in Morrowind (even by the standards of graphics at the time it came out).Both of these things are something that Bethesda openly admitted to a lot of times (via Todd Howard), mostly during the times when they were marketing for Fallout 3, because that world was mostly hand-designed. It bothered me a great deal, because in none of the two games I ever had the feeling of exploring places. Yeah, you'd go to new places but you wouldn't actually find anything new - just the same old things with a little bit of a different shape. On the other hand, that was one of the really strong points of Fallout 3 for me, that "environmental storytelling" that they've been talking about a couple of times. If it's anywhere near as good in Skyrim, this will be the first ES game I really love.
The combat has always been kinda boring - in Morrowind it was worse though, with the RNG based hitting (don't know which ruleset they used exactly) and missing which imo just doesn't fit into that style or real time action combat at all. In Oblivion it was better, but it had this terrible "weightless" feel to it, like most of my actions didn't have any effect on my opponent. Skyrim seems to still have that, even though it looks like they make a lot more things to make up for it (finishing moves, more virtual force feedback through sound, etc.)
The dialogue and story has always been terribly written. In Morrowind, you'd ask an NPC a simple question and he'd answer with a wall of text. Every NPC seemed to be a writer by heart or something. Really, who talks like that? That stuff is unbelievable and also lame to read, imo. Admittedly the only ES game I ever played more than 20 or so hours is Oblivion so it might actually get better in Morrowind later, but I seriously doubt it. In Oblivion it was the other bad end of the spectrum: The main story was so generic it made my brain hurt. Evil guys from other dimension invade world, you have to go kill boss of the evil guys? Come on...
Not to mention the ton of bugs that existed in those games without all the mods and fan patches.
I could go on, but like I said 6/10.
Harsh (but accurate) criticism. I respect your perspective - I hadn't thought of it that way.
I still think that you are a little underrating it though compared to other games of the time. There are some truly generic and/or bad games that inspired much less interest from me at least. Either way, great points.
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On November 03 2011 16:05 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 15:21 Jindo wrote:On November 03 2011 14:54 Xanbatou wrote:
Oblivion was not a great game IMO. I would say it's a good game, and nothing more. I say this because of two huge problems:
1. Generic dungeons: All of the non-quest related dungeons were completely generic. All loot was random, and there was nothing remarkable about any of them. This contrasts heavily with Morrowind. I still remember that cave near Seyda Need with that Wizard Ring. I also remember some cave with a vampire in it that has a sweet unique bow.
2. Level-scaling of enemies: It's retarded to have bandits wearing daedric armor. On top of that, you never get the feeling that you are getting stronger. Why the hell can you save the day when all the guards are ALWAYS stronger than you?
Those two things ruined oblivion for me. Sure, the quests were fun, but exploring was not rewarding at all. Don't forget the retarded UI, the tiresome leveling system, the non-necessary removal of skills, encyclopedia dialogue, terrible(and identical) voice acting, horrible animation, and streamlined gameplay. To be fair, most of those are criticisms of Morrowind as well. Most of the Oblivion criticisms are the streamlined gameplay to appeal to a larger subscriber base (which worked wonderfully if you look at sales). Adding a quest log, simplifying skills, fast travel (tbh I never understood the quest log or fast travel qq... just don't use it...), etc sucks for a hardcore player who wants things to be complicated, but it turns off so many casual players that it is almost NEVER worth the money loss. There's so much "QQ nobody makes games like they used to" criticism everywhere... it just isn't half as profitable.
Agreed. There's dumbing game down like removing features (For example one of the reasons Diablo III doesn't have weapon switch was because apparently they found people accidentally switched weapons and said people were confused about what happened [what happened to their weapon]. In short they removed it.) but I don't think those things (fast travel, quest log, etc) dumb down the game.
It makes it easier sure but doesn't really remove elements of the game (and like you said people don't have to use it if they don't want to. There is actually a mod to disable fast travel).
One of the reasons why The Last Remnant got mixed reviews (on the PC version, not 360 which were due to performance issues) is because how well unusual the game is.
Why TLR got mixed reviews (PC version):
1. Complicated leveling system. It's a min max type of leveling system.
2. So many missable stuff in the game it isn't funny. If only there was a quest log or compass that tells you where to obtain such and such quest or if only the game told you the quest was missable!
3. Confusing battle system. You also can't change character classes (they're automatic and forced based on your play style. Another aspect of "min maxing". Don't play this way and you'll get to keep the class).
Game isn't really hard but they really made everything complicated for no reason IMO (doesn't really add to the challenge).
The producer is Akitoshi Kawazu and "He is best known for making his games intensely challenging". I can't say TLR was challenging but more like "you need a walkthrough to do everything".
As the sales have shown, they needed to streamline the game and remove those "hardcore" elements ("hardcore" in TLR's case being you had to use a walkthrough or else the game would suck).
So yeah streamlining isn't a bad idea as long as it doesn't really dumb down the game. Will improve reception and sales if done right.
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On November 03 2011 15:31 heishe wrote:The vanilla Oblivion and Morrowind were both not better than 6/10 or something for me. + Show Spoiler +The worlds were way, way too generic in Oblivion and way too bland in Morrowind (even by the standards of graphics at the time it came out).Both of these things are something that Bethesda openly admitted to a lot of times (via Todd Howard), mostly during the times when they were marketing for Fallout 3, because that world was mostly hand-designed. It bothered me a great deal, because in none of the two games I ever had the feeling of exploring places. Yeah, you'd go to new places but you wouldn't actually find anything new - just the same old things with a little bit of a different shape. On the other hand, that was one of the really strong points of Fallout 3 for me, that "environmental storytelling" that they've been talking about a couple of times. If it's anywhere near as good in Skyrim, this will be the first ES game I really love.
The combat has always been kinda boring - in Morrowind it was worse though, with the RNG based hitting (don't know which ruleset they used exactly) and missing which imo just doesn't fit into that style or real time action combat at all. In Oblivion it was better, but it had this terrible "weightless" feel to it, like most of my actions didn't have any effect on my opponent. Skyrim seems to still have that, even though it looks like they make a lot more things to make up for it (finishing moves, more virtual force feedback through sound, etc.)
The dialogue and story has always been terribly written. In Morrowind, you'd ask an NPC a simple question and he'd answer with a wall of text. Every NPC seemed to be a writer by heart or something. Really, who talks like that? That stuff is unbelievable and also lame to read, imo. Admittedly the only ES game I ever played more than 20 or so hours is Oblivion so it might actually get better in Morrowind later, but I seriously doubt it. In Oblivion it was the other bad end of the spectrum: The main story was so generic it made my brain hurt. Evil guys from other dimension invade world, you have to go kill boss of the evil guys? Come on...
Not to mention the ton of bugs that existed in those games without all the mods and fan patches.
I could go on, but like I said 6/10.
Damn, sounds pretty picky to me. I absolutely loved each of them, although i liked morrowind better because its world was so imaginative and i felt like exploring every single area of it. The three main houses were also cool and i enjoyed getting to the top of all three on different characters ^_^.
I honestly say the computer version with mods is only necessary if you want to break the 300+ hour threshold. The vanilla games hold at least that much content. I played Oblivion on console and morrowind on BOTH. The mods people do are amazing but they are not a necessity unless you have weird little nitpicks that for some reason ruin an entire game to you(+ Show Spoiler +HOW COME MY MONEY DOESNT HAVE WEIGHT RAWWRRRR
just 8 more days until i have the CE and the strategy guide in my mailbox 
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Poland1775 Posts
Damn, this game looks really nice. I remember I enjoyed Morrowind very much (Oblivion not nearly as much), and I kinda think about picking up that game while waiting for SWTOR. Do you think it's gonna be a big improvement from Oblivion or just overhyped game?
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I found Morrowind really enjoyable for its time. I really played that game a ton.
Got to agree Oblivion wasn't supergood. Every "eye" dungeon was the same, and way too easy.
I got big hopes for Skyrim. Big Hopes.
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On November 03 2011 14:54 Xanbatou wrote:
Oblivion was not a great game IMO. I would say it's a good game, and nothing more. I say this because of two huge problems:
1. Generic dungeons: All of the non-quest related dungeons were completely generic. All loot was random, and there was nothing remarkable about any of them. This contrasts heavily with Morrowind. I still remember that cave near Seyda Need with that Wizard Ring. I also remember some cave with a vampire in it that has a sweet unique bow.
2. Level-scaling of enemies: It's retarded to have bandits wearing daedric armor. On top of that, you never get the feeling that you are getting stronger. Why the hell can you save the day when all the guards are ALWAYS stronger than you?
Those two things ruined oblivion for me. Sure, the quests were fun, but exploring was not rewarding at all.
You should have tried Oscuros Oblivion Overhaul; it fixed both of those issues and made the game absolutely epic... it was a must have mod. Guess what? Bethesda hired the author of OOO to design the dungeons for Skyrim. This is the sole reason I am buying the game because I know it will be epic just because of this.
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Heishe that's absurd. Sure, Morrowind was "behind" when HL2 came out. But holy shit that open world was HUGE during morrowinds release date. You clearly were NOT around for release of EITHER game. Oblivion turned heads. It was the Crysis of it's release date. It was the first game to use bloom and it LOOKED like the best game released that year. Both of these games were technically ahead of their time.Oblivion built on HL2 and Doom3. Sorry, but playing a game a year or two after release (as this is the ONLY way you would have gotten this opinion) does not count. The combat was unique, but you're right, far from interesting. But there were very few games around These games time that featured open world. It's a single player game, your own processor does all of these calcualtions. This is not world of warcraft where the server tells the client where crap is at, your processor has to determine that for you. Quite huge.
I could role a melee character and become a wizard when I was finished. I could choose the factions I wanted to oreint myself with. There were tons of hidden magical items. Both of these games were far ahead of all RPG's of their time, and sure, lots of the mechanics were overshadowed by later games. But really, you dont look at Starcraft 1 and be like "Oh wow the graphics suck, that game must have been terrible" and look at starcraft 2 like it's amazing. Release dates play a huge part. Both of these games revolutionized RPG's and visuals, and is why game of the year favors the Elder scrolls so much.
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On November 03 2011 15:31 heishe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The vanilla Oblivion and Morrowind were both not better than 6/10 or something for me.
The worlds were way, way too generic in Oblivion and way too bland in Morrowind (even by the standards of graphics at the time it came out).Both of these things are something that Bethesda openly admitted to a lot of times (via Todd Howard), mostly during the times when they were marketing for Fallout 3, because that world was mostly hand-designed. It bothered me a great deal, because in none of the two games I ever had the feeling of exploring places. Yeah, you'd go to new places but you wouldn't actually find anything new - just the same old things with a little bit of a different shape. On the other hand, that was one of the really strong points of Fallout 3 for me, that "environmental storytelling" that they've been talking about a couple of times. If it's anywhere near as good in Skyrim, this will be the first ES game I really love.
The combat has always been kinda boring - in Morrowind it was worse though, with the RNG based hitting (don't know which ruleset they used exactly) and missing which imo just doesn't fit into that style or real time action combat at all. In Oblivion it was better, but it had this terrible "weightless" feel to it, like most of my actions didn't have any effect on my opponent. Skyrim seems to still have that, even though it looks like they make a lot more things to make up for it (finishing moves, more virtual force feedback through sound, etc.)
The dialogue and story has always been terribly written. In Morrowind, you'd ask an NPC a simple question and he'd answer with a wall of text. Every NPC seemed to be a writer by heart or something. Really, who talks like that? That stuff is unbelievable and also lame to read, imo. Admittedly the only ES game I ever played more than 20 or so hours is Oblivion so it might actually get better in Morrowind later, but I seriously doubt it. In Oblivion it was the other bad end of the spectrum: The main story was so generic it made my brain hurt. Evil guys from other dimension invade world, you have to go kill boss of the evil guys? Come on...
Not to mention the ton of bugs that existed in those games without all the mods and fan patches.
I could go on, but like I said 6/10.
I disagree about there being nothing to find if you explored. There as a lot of cool hidden stuff scattered throughout the world. There were actually some really cool unique items and weapons if you looked in the right places.
As for the dialog, I might be in the minority, but I really don't mind it. I like hearing a lot about what NPCs have to say about things, and it seems to me that in a lot of fantasy settings characters tend be be a bit verbose. Look at Lord of the Rings for example, it's considered one of the best (if not the best, depending on who you ask) fantasy novel out there. A lot of the characters are unrealistically wordy, but it doesn't seem to bother anyone. At least I've never heard anyone make that complaint.
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On November 03 2011 17:34 Phayze wrote:
Heishe that's absurd. Sure, Morrowind was "behind" when HL2 came out. But holy shit that open world was HUGE during morrowinds release date. You clearly were NOT around for release of EITHER game. Oblivion turned heads. It was the Crysis of it's release date. It was the first game to use bloom and it LOOKED like the best game released that year. Both of these games were technically ahead of their time.Oblivion built on HL2 and Doom3. Sorry, but playing a game a year or two after release (as this is the ONLY way you would have gotten this opinion) does not count. The combat was unique, but you're right, far from interesting. But there were very few games around These games time that featured open world. It's a single player game, your own processor does all of these calcualtions. This is not world of warcraft where the server tells the client where crap is at, your processor has to determine that for you. Quite huge.
I could role a melee character and become a wizard when I was finished. I could choose the factions I wanted to oreint myself with. There were tons of hidden magical items. Both of these games were far ahead of all RPG's of their time, and sure, lots of the mechanics were overshadowed by later games. But really, you dont look at Starcraft 1 and be like "Oh wow the graphics suck, that game must have been terrible" and look at starcraft 2 like it's amazing. Release dates play a huge part. Both of these games revolutionized RPG's and visuals, and is why game of the year favors the Elder scrolls so much.
Lol?
Baldur's Gate games are still better then all Elder Scroll games. Not to mention Planescape Torment.
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On November 03 2011 18:15 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 17:34 Phayze wrote:
Heishe that's absurd. Sure, Morrowind was "behind" when HL2 came out. But holy shit that open world was HUGE during morrowinds release date. You clearly were NOT around for release of EITHER game. Oblivion turned heads. It was the Crysis of it's release date. It was the first game to use bloom and it LOOKED like the best game released that year. Both of these games were technically ahead of their time.Oblivion built on HL2 and Doom3. Sorry, but playing a game a year or two after release (as this is the ONLY way you would have gotten this opinion) does not count. The combat was unique, but you're right, far from interesting. But there were very few games around These games time that featured open world. It's a single player game, your own processor does all of these calcualtions. This is not world of warcraft where the server tells the client where crap is at, your processor has to determine that for you. Quite huge.
I could role a melee character and become a wizard when I was finished. I could choose the factions I wanted to oreint myself with. There were tons of hidden magical items. Both of these games were far ahead of all RPG's of their time, and sure, lots of the mechanics were overshadowed by later games. But really, you dont look at Starcraft 1 and be like "Oh wow the graphics suck, that game must have been terrible" and look at starcraft 2 like it's amazing. Release dates play a huge part. Both of these games revolutionized RPG's and visuals, and is why game of the year favors the Elder scrolls so much. Lol? Baldur's Gate games are still better then all Elder Scroll games. Not to mention Planescape Torment.
Thank you for visiting the TES:V thread.... i mean seriously.
"I think im going to come in here and just throw some opinions out and they shall be fact." This is not the gamespot system wars forum or any other troll site where that is just accepted. Here is just makes you look stupid.
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On November 03 2011 15:37 Xanbatou wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 15:31 heishe wrote:
The vanilla Oblivion and Morrowind were both not better than 6/10 or something for me.
The worlds were way, way too generic in Oblivion and way too bland in Morrowind (even by the standards of graphics at the time it came out).Both of these things are something that Bethesda openly admitted to a lot of times (via Todd Howard), mostly during the times when they were marketing for Fallout 3, because that world was mostly hand-designed. It bothered me a great deal, because in none of the two games I ever had the feeling of exploring places. Yeah, you'd go to new places but you wouldn't actually find anything new - just the same old things with a little bit of a different shape. On the other hand, that was one of the really strong points of Fallout 3 for me, that "environmental storytelling" that they've been talking about a couple of times. If it's anywhere near as good in Skyrim, this will be the first ES game I really love.
The combat has always been kinda boring - in Morrowind it was worse though, with the RNG based hitting (don't know which ruleset they used exactly) and missing which imo just doesn't fit into that style or real time action combat at all. In Oblivion it was better, but it had this terrible "weightless" feel to it, like most of my actions didn't have any effect on my opponent. Skyrim seems to still have that, even though it looks like they make a lot more things to make up for it (finishing moves, more virtual force feedback through sound, etc.)
The dialogue and story has always been terribly written. In Morrowind, you'd ask an NPC a simple question and he'd answer with a wall of text. Every NPC seemed to be a writer by heart or something. Really, who talks like that? That stuff is unbelievable and also lame to read, imo. Admittedly the only ES game I ever played more than 20 or so hours is Oblivion so it might actually get better in Morrowind later, but I seriously doubt it. In Oblivion it was the other bad end of the spectrum: The main story was so generic it made my brain hurt. Evil guys from other dimension invade world, you have to go kill boss of the evil guys? Come on...
Not to mention the ton of bugs that existed in those games without all the mods and fan patches.
I could go on, but like I said 6/10.
Man, I disagree. There were a ton of totally unique dungeons in morrowind. The landscape was pretty similar though...
Oh, no, I didn't think Morrowind was generic. That was just a criticism of Oblivion. When I say "bland" about Morrowind I mean the fact that the world felt really artificial, dead and also I didn't like the gray/brown/generally dark art design. But that's just my opinion and probably a matter of taste.
It also probably stems from the fact that I had played Gothic 1 & 2 before I ever played Morrowind (I don't know if you know these games, but in Germany they were quite popular) which were really excellent examples of how to create rich worlds with limited hardware.
On November 03 2011 16:57 IMSmooth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 15:31 heishe wrote:The vanilla Oblivion and Morrowind were both not better than 6/10 or something for me. + Show Spoiler +The worlds were way, way too generic in Oblivion and way too bland in Morrowind (even by the standards of graphics at the time it came out).Both of these things are something that Bethesda openly admitted to a lot of times (via Todd Howard), mostly during the times when they were marketing for Fallout 3, because that world was mostly hand-designed. It bothered me a great deal, because in none of the two games I ever had the feeling of exploring places. Yeah, you'd go to new places but you wouldn't actually find anything new - just the same old things with a little bit of a different shape. On the other hand, that was one of the really strong points of Fallout 3 for me, that "environmental storytelling" that they've been talking about a couple of times. If it's anywhere near as good in Skyrim, this will be the first ES game I really love.
The combat has always been kinda boring - in Morrowind it was worse though, with the RNG based hitting (don't know which ruleset they used exactly) and missing which imo just doesn't fit into that style or real time action combat at all. In Oblivion it was better, but it had this terrible "weightless" feel to it, like most of my actions didn't have any effect on my opponent. Skyrim seems to still have that, even though it looks like they make a lot more things to make up for it (finishing moves, more virtual force feedback through sound, etc.)
The dialogue and story has always been terribly written. In Morrowind, you'd ask an NPC a simple question and he'd answer with a wall of text. Every NPC seemed to be a writer by heart or something. Really, who talks like that? That stuff is unbelievable and also lame to read, imo. Admittedly the only ES game I ever played more than 20 or so hours is Oblivion so it might actually get better in Morrowind later, but I seriously doubt it. In Oblivion it was the other bad end of the spectrum: The main story was so generic it made my brain hurt. Evil guys from other dimension invade world, you have to go kill boss of the evil guys? Come on...
Not to mention the ton of bugs that existed in those games without all the mods and fan patches.
I could go on, but like I said 6/10. Damn, sounds pretty picky to me. I absolutely loved each of them, although i liked morrowind better because its world was so imaginative and i felt like exploring every single area of it. The three main houses were also cool and i enjoyed getting to the top of all three on different characters ^_^. I honestly say the computer version with mods is only necessary if you want to break the 300+ hour threshold. The vanilla games hold at least that much content. I played Oblivion on console and morrowind on BOTH. The mods people do are amazing but they are not a necessity unless you have weird little nitpicks that for some reason ruin an entire game to you( + Show Spoiler +HOW COME MY MONEY DOESNT HAVE WEIGHT RAWWRRRR ). As for me, i like to play it on a 108 in 1080p projector with surround sound... so console it is for me. In addition i am not as picky as most here so the regular version of the game will be just perfect. just 8 more days until i have the CE and the strategy guide in my mailbox
It's probably picky, but I guess that's just how I am. Also note that I really liked Oblivion with mods (never really played Morrowind with mods). Oblivion with OOO and a couple of graphics mods was really, really good (although I'd still say it's a clear 9/10, simply because the dialogue, story, combat system etc. doesn't just go away with mods, and Oblivion with mods who alter all of that arguably aren't Oblivion anymore and rather something like a different game, since those things are primarily what defined Oblivion, apart from the character customization).
On November 03 2011 17:34 Phayze wrote:
Heishe that's absurd. Sure, Morrowind was "behind" when HL2 came out. But holy shit that open world was HUGE during morrowinds release date. You clearly were NOT around for release of EITHER game. Oblivion turned heads. It was the Crysis of it's release date. It was the first game to use bloom and it LOOKED like the best game released that year. Both of these games were technically ahead of their time.Oblivion built on HL2 and Doom3. Sorry, but playing a game a year or two after release (as this is the ONLY way you would have gotten this opinion) does not count. The combat was unique, but you're right, far from interesting. But there were very few games around These games time that featured open world. It's a single player game, your own processor does all of these calcualtions. This is not world of warcraft where the server tells the client where crap is at, your processor has to determine that for you. Quite huge.
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That's simply not true. I actually bought Morrowind on release day, on a relatively fresh PC at that time, but I just couldn't have fun with it for longer than a couple of hours. Yes, technically Morrowind was a very well done game. The water effects at that time (HL2 and Doom3 came out a couple of years later, didn't they?) were beautiful, and the large world was something never seen before.
But that size came at a cost - and it also isn't what I was referring to in my critcism. I was talking about the "feel" of the world, not about the technical look of it. Most of the landscape were flat hills with very few trees and bushes in between. The dungeons, while unique, imo had a poor level of detail. Everything was just flat, gray, dark green and brown with a few splats of water and actually bright colors in between. Outside of the cities, everything felt "dead", and it was very much feeling like I was walking around in a landscape simulator with the occasional awkwardly animated enemy mod.
It also isn't the only shot I gave Morrowind. At the time I bought the game, there were no forums like these where I could read about people saying how great the game actually is. I didn't even speak English then, not even mentioning the fact that fast internet at flat costs per month were a dream for me back then  . Time went by, and eventually I read about people saying how Morrowind was the best game ever, etc.
So a couple of years ago (even after Oblivion was already out), I tried to play it again, and it simply didn't work. I had no fun playing it. I guess that's just personal taste, and I'm not saying that the 6/10 is an objective measure - it obviously is not.
On November 03 2011 17:35 Thingdo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 15:31 heishe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The vanilla Oblivion and Morrowind were both not better than 6/10 or something for me.
The worlds were way, way too generic in Oblivion and way too bland in Morrowind (even by the standards of graphics at the time it came out).Both of these things are something that Bethesda openly admitted to a lot of times (via Todd Howard), mostly during the times when they were marketing for Fallout 3, because that world was mostly hand-designed. It bothered me a great deal, because in none of the two games I ever had the feeling of exploring places. Yeah, you'd go to new places but you wouldn't actually find anything new - just the same old things with a little bit of a different shape. On the other hand, that was one of the really strong points of Fallout 3 for me, that "environmental storytelling" that they've been talking about a couple of times. If it's anywhere near as good in Skyrim, this will be the first ES game I really love.
The combat has always been kinda boring - in Morrowind it was worse though, with the RNG based hitting (don't know which ruleset they used exactly) and missing which imo just doesn't fit into that style or real time action combat at all. In Oblivion it was better, but it had this terrible "weightless" feel to it, like most of my actions didn't have any effect on my opponent. Skyrim seems to still have that, even though it looks like they make a lot more things to make up for it (finishing moves, more virtual force feedback through sound, etc.)
The dialogue and story has always been terribly written. In Morrowind, you'd ask an NPC a simple question and he'd answer with a wall of text. Every NPC seemed to be a writer by heart or something. Really, who talks like that? That stuff is unbelievable and also lame to read, imo. Admittedly the only ES game I ever played more than 20 or so hours is Oblivion so it might actually get better in Morrowind later, but I seriously doubt it. In Oblivion it was the other bad end of the spectrum: The main story was so generic it made my brain hurt. Evil guys from other dimension invade world, you have to go kill boss of the evil guys? Come on...
Not to mention the ton of bugs that existed in those games without all the mods and fan patches.
I could go on, but like I said 6/10.
I disagree about there being nothing to find if you explored. There as a lot of cool hidden stuff scattered throughout the world. There were actually some really cool unique items and weapons if you looked in the right places.
In Morrowind? Maybe... but as I pointed out the fun for that game ended for me far before I had the chance to explore every corner of the world. In Oblivion? Surely there were unique items, but the vast, vast majority of things was generic. As in, actually generic. A lot of their world was automatically generated by tools they used (the entirety Cyrodill was basically the bottom of a teapot with a ring of trees around it), and then manually made more pretty with details, etc. There were just a couple of types of dungeons, and they repeated endlessly. Let's not even talk about Oblivion, the actual dimension... Those maps had really copy&pasty feel to them.
And the bulk of that experience is just what defined the game for me.
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On November 03 2011 16:32 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 16:05 dcemuser wrote:On November 03 2011 15:21 Jindo wrote:On November 03 2011 14:54 Xanbatou wrote:
Oblivion was not a great game IMO. I would say it's a good game, and nothing more. I say this because of two huge problems:
1. Generic dungeons: All of the non-quest related dungeons were completely generic. All loot was random, and there was nothing remarkable about any of them. This contrasts heavily with Morrowind. I still remember that cave near Seyda Need with that Wizard Ring. I also remember some cave with a vampire in it that has a sweet unique bow.
2. Level-scaling of enemies: It's retarded to have bandits wearing daedric armor. On top of that, you never get the feeling that you are getting stronger. Why the hell can you save the day when all the guards are ALWAYS stronger than you?
Those two things ruined oblivion for me. Sure, the quests were fun, but exploring was not rewarding at all. Don't forget the retarded UI, the tiresome leveling system, the non-necessary removal of skills, encyclopedia dialogue, terrible(and identical) voice acting, horrible animation, and streamlined gameplay. To be fair, most of those are criticisms of Morrowind as well. Most of the Oblivion criticisms are the streamlined gameplay to appeal to a larger subscriber base (which worked wonderfully if you look at sales). Adding a quest log, simplifying skills, fast travel (tbh I never understood the quest log or fast travel qq... just don't use it...), etc sucks for a hardcore player who wants things to be complicated, but it turns off so many casual players that it is almost NEVER worth the money loss. There's so much "QQ nobody makes games like they used to" criticism everywhere... it just isn't half as profitable. Agreed. There's dumbing game down like removing features (For example one of the reasons Diablo III doesn't have weapon switch was because apparently they found people accidentally switched weapons and said people were confused about what happened [what happened to their weapon]. In short they removed it.) but I don't think those things (fast travel, quest log, etc) dumb down the game. It makes it easier sure but doesn't really remove elements of the game (and like you said people don't have to use it if they don't want to. There is actually a mod to disable fast travel). One of the reasons why The Last Remnant got mixed reviews (on the PC version, not 360 which were due to performance issues) is because how well unusual the game is. Why TLR got mixed reviews (PC version): 1. Complicated leveling system. It's a min max type of leveling system. 2. So many missable stuff in the game it isn't funny. If only there was a quest log or compass that tells you where to obtain such and such quest or if only the game told you the quest was missable! 3. Confusing battle system. You also can't change character classes (they're automatic and forced based on your play style. Another aspect of "min maxing". Don't play this way and you'll get to keep the class). Game isn't really hard but they really made everything complicated for no reason IMO (doesn't really add to the challenge). The producer is Akitoshi Kawazu and "He is best known for making his games intensely challenging". I can't say TLR was challenging but more like "you need a walkthrough to do everything". As the sales have shown, they needed to streamline the game and remove those "hardcore" elements ("hardcore" in TLR's case being you had to use a walkthrough or else the game would suck). So yeah streamlining isn't a bad idea as long as it doesn't really dumb down the game. Will improve reception and sales if done right.
Dude the last remnant was epic. I never got around to finishing it like most RPGs these days... but it was great. Compass for quests and missible stuff? REally? Comon man, people dont need every little shit pointed out to them.
Go here, then talk to this guy with the flashing (!), then follow the arrow and go there, kill some mobs. Talk to this guy with the flashing (?). Bleh.
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On November 03 2011 17:29 -Trippin- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 14:54 Xanbatou wrote:
Oblivion was not a great game IMO. I would say it's a good game, and nothing more. I say this because of two huge problems:
1. Generic dungeons: All of the non-quest related dungeons were completely generic. All loot was random, and there was nothing remarkable about any of them. This contrasts heavily with Morrowind. I still remember that cave near Seyda Need with that Wizard Ring. I also remember some cave with a vampire in it that has a sweet unique bow.
2. Level-scaling of enemies: It's retarded to have bandits wearing daedric armor. On top of that, you never get the feeling that you are getting stronger. Why the hell can you save the day when all the guards are ALWAYS stronger than you?
Those two things ruined oblivion for me. Sure, the quests were fun, but exploring was not rewarding at all. You should have tried Oscuros Oblivion Overhaul; it fixed both of those issues and made the game absolutely epic... it was a must have mod. Guess what? Bethesda hired the author of OOO to design the dungeons for Skyrim. This is the sole reason I am buying the game because I know it will be epic just because of this.
I didn't realize that the maker of OOO was working on skyrim, now I won't be able to sleep 
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EPT
