EPTTake what you will from that.
Mass Effect 3 - Page 156
| Forum Index > General Games |
|
Medrea
10003 Posts
Take what you will from that. | ||
|
IMHope
Korea (South)1241 Posts
| ||
|
revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:50 gumshoe wrote: Hey are we still mad if it turns out indoctrination theory is whats what? I mean I know theres was an abcence of choice but one could make an argument that the ending is the struggle to regain choice. The problem with the Indoctrination Theory is that it would be a completely shitty ending. Having a period of the game where Shepard was mind-controlled/hallucinating might indeed be an interesting plot-twist and a thought-provoking part of the game. However having it as the last scene of the entire series is a terrible ending and abysmal story-telling. Cos there is no resolution at all to the story. If the last scene (everything after being zapped) is some sort of dream/trance, then the game has not been finished. At all. The Crucible remains unactivated, the Reapers remain undefeated, the war goes on. Does Shepard die? Or does he get up and finish the job? Do his Companions survive or not? What happens to all those races involved in the massive space battle? The Indoctrination Theory does not provide an ENDING to the series. It would be like the Lord of the Rings having a scene where Frodo was tempted by the One Ring. In this scene he imagines ruling Middle-Earth as the new Dark Lord. He eventually fights off this temptation and awakens from his trance. And then the Story ends. Right there! With the One Ring still undestroyed and the War of the Ring still continuing! Readers would not have known what happened to Gollum, Aragorn and Gandalf! Pretty sure Tolkien would have been a laughing stock if he had finished the Books with the Main Quest still unfinished. Imagine if George Lucas pulled that trick. The Emperor tempts Luke towards the Dark Side while on the Death Star! Luke is tempted to 'give in to the Dark Side'. He sees a vision of himself grasping power and becoming a new Apprentice and supplanting his Father as the Emperor's new Sith. Luke has a vision of Obi-Wan, finds the inner strength and succeeds in fighting off the temptations of the Dark Side. He opens his eyes with new resolve. And the story ends. Right there. With no-one knowing what happens to Luke, Darth Vader, the Emperor, the entire massive Space Battle occurring outside! No-one knows what happened to Han Solo and the Droids. No-one knows whether the Rebel Alliance succeeded in defeating the Galactic Empire or not. No resolution to the entire main story over the past 3 films! Everyone would have gone mental! Imagine Jaws. Brody is sinking in his ship. He sees the Shark approaching. His loss of blood makes him weak and he almost blacks out. He sees a vision of his children and the victims who have been taken by the Great White Shark. He rouses himself and sets himself for taking the final shot at the approaching Shark. The Film ends. Right there! With no resolution to the Shark hunt! Does Brody shoot the Shark? Does the Shark eat him? What happened to the guy with the Scuba gear? With no resolution to the main fricking goal of the entire film, Jaws whould have been notorious for being one of the worst films EVER! Spielberg would never have worked again! Endings matter. You have to have a resolution to the story! The Indoctrination Theory provide NO Ending to the Story's main quest. It would be the stupidest thing ever. Why not just have Shepard saying OK, now it's time to go back to Earth. Hackett's says OK let's go. The End! That would be just as lame. No telling what happens in the FINAL BATTLE at all. Do they win or not? Who lives? Who dies? Who is injured? The Indoctrination Theory is so stupid as the final scene, it simply cannot be true. It would make no sense to have an ending which provided NO ending. At all. It would make more sense to have an error message come up stating DISK RAN OUT OF SPACE! At least then it would be clear that the game was incomplete. For the Indoctrination Theory to be correct, it would have to be the case, that Bioware decided to have an incredibly subtle and confusing trance sequence for about ten minutes and then decided not to bother finishing the Main Quest at all! Such a decision would be even more unlikely than someone just making an actual ending that was sh1t. | ||
|
PH
United States6173 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:47 TheRavensName wrote: http://uninhibitedandunrepentant.tumblr.com/post/19344938387/mind-holy-fuck This makes those endings make ALOT more sense. If s/he is indeed correct, then yeah, I'm a believer now. | ||
|
Medrea
10003 Posts
| ||
|
Zeburial
Sweden1126 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:12 PH wrote: If s/he is indeed correct, then yeah, I'm a believer now. That... blew my mind =D | ||
|
Eeevil
Netherlands359 Posts
On April 06 2012 05:47 TheRavensName wrote: http://uninhibitedandunrepentant.tumblr.com/post/19344938387/mind-holy-fuck This makes those endings make ALOT more sense. Indeed. There was one part that set me off even more than the ending. And that is the destruction....or genocide of either Geth or Quarian. How can the destruction of one people over the other be justified in any way, let alone in the case presented to you in ME3 where the only argument made in favor of pretty much wiping the Quarians out as a species is the one of "They started it" Even if you would say that the that choice had to be made was between two evils, it was not presented in such a manner. Wiping out the Quarians is presented as a good and heroic thing to do. If it would be Picard or Kenobi facing this dilemma, would they have solved it in the same manner ? No, they wouldn't have anything to do with making such a choice. Oh yeah, on top of these genocidal heroics (?!) Legion, who had been trapped in some kind of Reaper machine as a signal booster for...uh....a Reaper control signal, asks "Hey, can we use this reaper code that controlled us a few minutes ago, but it won;t affect us now because I say so." The good and heroic thing to say is "Sure Legion, you're a living creature, use that reaper code to commit genocide on the Quarians...I'm sure things will be fine" The fact that the destruction of an entire race (which btw has been overwhelmingly friendly to you) and the release of a Reaper code onto the Geth is presented as the heroic thing to do is clearly a sign that our hero is well and truly indoctrinated. This cannot be the result of sloppy writing, because the writers of the ME series are not idiots. Edit: And by that logic that whole ending may not have happened at all except in Shepherd's head....ME4 anyone ? | ||
|
Medrea
10003 Posts
| ||
|
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:12 PH wrote: If s/he is indeed correct, then yeah, I'm a believer now. Please, just stop. The indoctrination theory is wrong. Bioware just encouraged the speculation because it seperates the fanbase rather than unite it against shitty writing. | ||
|
revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:00 Medrea wrote: You can save them both. I thought you needed to have imported a ME2 character. Otherwise you don't know Legion and he is just a 'special platform'. I think that is the case. Then you cannot choose both! You have to choose to either save the Geth or the Quorian and the other gets annihilated. Tali kills herself in front of you if her people die, so no pressure! First playthrough, I saved Tali and killed the Geth, just cos we have been fighting the Geth for most of the series (yes heretics offshoot blah blah) and the alternative was losing Tali. What sort of bastard is going to say f@ck you to Tali, one of the companions who has been in it right from the start? Not me. Tali and her evidence was pivotal in the entire Saren chase. I was not going to repay her by essentially condemning her entire race to extinction! | ||
|
lynx.oblige
Sierra Leone2268 Posts
| ||
|
Medrea
10003 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:18 revel8 wrote: I thought you needed to have imported a ME2 character. Otherwise you don't know Legion and he is just a 'special platform'. I think that is the case. Then you cannot choose both! You have to choose to either save the Geth or the Quorian and the other gets annihilated. Tali kills herself in front of you if her people die, so no pressure! First playthrough, I saved Tali and killed the Geth, just cos we have been fighting the Geth for most of the series (yes heretics offshoot blah blah) and the alternative was losing Tali. What sort of bastard is going to say f@ck you to Tali, one of the companions who has been in it right from the start? Not me. Tali and her evidence was pivotal in the entire Saren chase. I was not going to repay her by essentially condemning her entire race to extinction! Go play ME2 then its a great game! Or download a save file to import from. | ||
|
Eeevil
Netherlands359 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:08 Madkipz wrote: Please, just stop. The indoctrination theory is wrong. Bioware just encouraged the speculation because it seperates the fanbase rather than unite it against shitty writing. LOL, cease your talk about Indoctrination for it is Bioware that is indoctrinating us ! But I don;t really care about Bioware's agenda, another ending won't make right the ruining of the magic that had to be the crescendo climax of my ME playing experience. | ||
|
turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On April 06 2012 07:12 PH wrote: If s/he is indeed correct, then yeah, I'm a believer now. his logic is flawed and his reasoning is too. the fact that the shep voice people havent been contacted should tell everyone exactly whats going to be on the dlc. combined with the 'deleted scene' posted on reddit, and the twitter reply from someone at bioware it should be pretty similar to the following: the final moments shep story ending are as they are. it will reveal that either your squad mates heard the order for the general retreat and left, or assuming you were dead or you told them to, they left. fighting through more reaper forces and possibly the reaper detachment that was en route your squad return to the normandy. believing all is lost hackett/liara order the normandy to make a jump through the mass relay to anywhere the reapers havent bothered with, aka an uninhabited system to drop off liaras 'clue box' for the next cycle. as they attempt to traverse the relay shep makes his/her choice and the relays fail. now although it says the travel on a relay is instantious, they either take some dramatic license here, or retcon in that it only looks instant to outsiders, people in the relay feel time progressing. this explains the explosion following the normandy. the entire/some of normandy crew crash onto a new planet in this empty system and attempt to either live on or just make more plans for the next cycle, perhaps still believing shep failed or perhaps a radio signal followed them through the relay (idk how bioware say stuff like that works) telling them things worked out. bioware has also stated on twitter that theres no reason the mass relays couldnt be rebuilt (even though it was said somewhere people dont even know how they work?) in that case its not unreasonable for your crew to be rescued for a reunite. perhaps this one will require the merge or control ending to get reaper assistance with rebuilding them. on indoctrination theory in general. it has massive holes in the logic, and implies that indoctrination is a binary thing, you either are or arent. yet the evidence suggests that its more like 'traditional' suggestion rather than ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL all the time. this is why comments like, why didnt tim just make you kill yourself or whatever make no sense. suggestion only works if people dont know they are being suggested to, doing crazy things, or things making no sense breaks their suspension of disbelief. on the questions of "why does the citadel have the power to destroy the reapers/why does godkid come as a kid/why didnt they turn off the beam". the citadel/catalyst has the power to do all these things because thats what it already does. it is implied the citadel 'is' a reaper or perhaps an even greater being, that controls them. by controlling the citadel you can make them suicide or do what you want, this seems fairly obvious to me. how did godkid know you would be suggestable to a kid? its implied the reapers are able to read your mind when they are in your shit even if they cant control you 100%, they know your fears and hopes and dreams. the kid struct a chord with shepard, whether you think its cheesey or stupid or whatever, they made it clear the kid mattered to shep, so appearing as a kid is fine. theres also a lot of social/psychological arguments you could make for appearing as a child. why didnt they turn off the beam? i think its simply a case of unending confidence. the reapers just didnt place any value in non reaper life. this much is clear, even to the end you only had a chance vs them using reaper technology and who knows how many years work on the crucible. they believed you were no threat to them, really fucking stupid? maybe. but it never says the reapers are infallible. i still think the ending has a ton of problems, aswell as gameplay and story wise. this game is far from a 10/10 that most sites give it, not that its bad. but indoctrination theory is pretty stupid too and 'believing' it wont address any of the problems with the game. | ||
|
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:21 lynx.oblige wrote: People find it easier to condemn than to believe, or in this case, easier to condemn than to judge with clarity. No, the theory is flat out wrong, but I won't try to prove it beyond the fact that bioware have chosen to "Clarify" their ending with a free cinematic dlc that offers no additional gameplay. If this was about fucking mindcontrol then you would assuredly need an entire expansion worth of content wouldn't you? Fact of the matter is the entire london arc was a horrible mess of wrong with only 5 minutes worth of dialogue and a lot of shooting that holds no meaning as no choices you made as to who you save or don't save never appear anywhere. The fact of the matter is that the lead writers have stuck by their ending and they will not tell indoctrination theorists that they are wrong. Because it's not up to them to tell the fans whats wrong. They only tell fans whats right. And what is right is that Bioware will offer clarification on the endings you reject as dream. and you're wrong by the way. People don't want to believe that biowares writers messed it up and grasp at straws to make some sense out of it. | ||
|
Medrea
10003 Posts
| ||
|
revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
On April 06 2012 09:25 Medrea wrote: Go play ME2 then its a great game! Or download a save file to import from. Yeah, I am replaying with a saved file. I just have not got to the Geth part yet. It is interesting to see the difference and there are certainly some benefits within ME3 of playing ME2 first. It is more rewarding/easier with an imported character. As I would expect. | ||
|
Medrea
10003 Posts
| ||
|
revel8
United Kingdom3022 Posts
On April 06 2012 10:12 Medrea wrote: I forget which site it is but there is a list that has a lot of save files or maybe even a generator so you can create your own save file conditions without actually having to go back to ME1 and 2 and replay all that all over again. Yep. That's where I got the saved file. Very useful. http://www.masseffect2saves.com/ | ||
|
Medrea
10003 Posts
On April 06 2012 10:16 revel8 wrote: Yep. That's where I got the saved file. Very useful. http://www.masseffect2saves.com/ I was just gonna link that. I don't think it has every single option but, its close enough. I was hoping for a downright generator. Maybe you can find something here. http://social.bioware.com/project/4373/#files | ||
| ||
