Second, you entirely missed my point. People primarily bash Halo for its "low skill ceiling" saying you get to a point soon where noone is getting much better because there is nothing to really get better at...and I was saying its bs. If one player can dominate as hard as ogre2 has, then there has to be a skillful aspect of the game that isn't close to being reached.
Yeah, and yet it doesn't say how many skills that is. When somebody says that a game has a low skill ceiling, it is usually mean that it doesn't have many skills to excel at, nobody in their right mind would say that the skillcap has been reached by top20 teams in the world or anything like that.
In other words, if the game was skilless, and had a low ceiling, then everyone "pro" would be more or less at the same level of skill and no one person could dominate. A prime example of a game like this is Counterstrike Source. Everyone at the highest level is about at the same level ,and the only thing separating teams is the actual teamwork.
If a game was absolutely skill-less, yes. But it could as well have a low skill ceiling (most skills just learnable, but enough skills to not get fully capped) and have consistent results, tbh I see this argument you made thrown everywhere and it's just a logical flaw. In your example, counter strike source HAS a low skill ceiling and yet, still may have consistent results.
Its the exact same scenario in Halo as in Quake Live. Rapha, with just positional dominance, and just mediocre, even bad(for a pro) aim and movement skill has utterly dominated the entire QL scene for a couple years now. It also shows just how much more about QL there is too learn too.
utterly dominated is a very poorly chosen word, that totally did not happen, and not for this period of time His aim is ok, as in he hits when it matters although he might not hit some amazing shots like killsen etc. His movement is very good. Get some knowledge, sorry :\
Going to start with QL. You sound like a Cooller fan. Yes, Rapha has utterly dominated. He's finished in the top 3-5 in virtually every tournament he's entered, and placed 1st in well over half of them. In a field of 10-15 competitive QL duelers, that kind of record is dominance, especially considering how random the game can be. Sure his wins often look less than impressive stylisticly, but that's just his play style. And his aim is just very average. Almost everyone aims as well as he does, and most aim better. His movement speed is not very good. It, like his aim, is very average. He can make the normal "difficult" jumps and tricks that every decent QL dueler can make, but he never wows you with a great map run or anything.
And back to Halo, you didn't even try to argue my point. You just stated it was wrong.......? It makes perfect sense to me. If a game has a low skill ceiling then it is virtually impossible for any one person to stand out, because anyone can hit that relatively low ceiling with a lot of practice. If one person can dominate, that means either noone is trying to get better or there are still skills that you can improve on, aka, it does not have a low skill ceiling.
You seem to be confused as to what a low skill ceiling is, maybe. It means you can only get so good at it. At some point in your practicing most games(CoD, CSS, etc) no matter how much anyone practices, they are limited in how good they can get by the game itself. For instance, movement in Halo has a VERY low skill ceiling, while in Quake, its virtually limitless, as more and more practice can get you more and more movement ability. Aim in a lot of FPS games is this way, the weapons are so inaccurate at decent range that no matter how much you practice, that glock won't be headshotting the peaking awp at D2 double doors. That is what I mean by low skill ceiling, not how many skills there are. And as long as a game has two or three high skill ceiling aspects, it is usually pretty good.
In this match, Fatal1ty starts at 0-8 and comes back to rape... This video basically shows the competitive aspects at the top tier, which is basically memorizing spawn timers for players, weapons, and armor.
I think this video is a better demonstration on how insane high-level quake dueling is. (taken from the Quake live thread, Rapha explaining his thought processes on a map during IEM season 4 finals)
Yeah the comeback was all fine and dandy but this video is a much better example.
and to anyone who thinks halo players have to keep track of position better than quake/cs players honestly don't know a thing about competitive play. Especially in as fast paced a game as quake, its amazing how these guys nail timings and movements of the enemy.
On November 30 2010 09:16 trancey wrote: I'm a numbers man, and honestly, I can not see how CS or Quake generates revenue world-wide on the same scale that Halo does for MLG.
You honestly can't think of how much revenue it generates worldwide?
SSBM used to have a pretty big scene in Japan and America but Brawl just isn't as good. SF4 has a reasonable scene in Japan and America I think. Mostly Quake/CS outside of Asia though I think.
On December 01 2010 02:45 Piy wrote: SSBM used to have a pretty big scene in Japan and America but Brawl just isn't as good. SF4 has a reasonable scene in Japan and America I think. Mostly Quake/CS outside of Asia though I think.
SSBM is still quite big tho, I've played it a lot the past year. Big tournaments in the US attract up to 500-600 entrants, in Europe the biggest are around 200.
On December 01 2010 02:36 Sm3agol wrote: Going to start with QL. You sound like a Cooller fan. Yes, Rapha has utterly dominated. He's finished in the top 3-5 in virtually every tournament he's entered, and placed 1st in well over half of them. In a field of 10-15 competitive QL duelers, that kind of record is dominance, especially considering how random the game can be. Sure his wins often look less than impressive stylisticly, but that's just his play style. And his aim is just very average. Almost everyone aims as well as he does, and most aim better. His movement speed is not very good. It, like his aim, is very average. He can make the normal "difficult" jumps and tricks that every decent QL dueler can make, but he never wows you with a great map run or anything.
Watch some toxjq in the times of his q4 reign. That's dominance. This? He was just the best player, and even though his consistency is astonishing he never was "that far above" everyone, so no, he wasn't dominating. The word utter would definitely have to imply that he was dominating in-game, not just in paper. His dodging ( a part of movement ) is just amazing.
And back to Halo, you didn't even try to argue my point. You just stated it was wrong.......? It makes perfect sense to me. If a game has a low skill ceiling then it is virtually impossible for any one person to stand out, because anyone can hit that relatively low ceiling with a lot of practice. If one person can dominate, that means either noone is trying to get better or there are still skills that you can improve on, aka, it does not have a low skill ceiling.
You seem to be confused as to what a low skill ceiling is, maybe. It means you can only get so good at it. At some point in your practicing most games(CoD, CSS, etc) no matter how much anyone practices, they are limited in how good they can get by the game itself. For instance, movement in Halo has a VERY low skill ceiling, while in Quake, its virtually limitless, as more and more practice can get you more and more movement ability. Aim in a lot of FPS games is this way, the weapons are so inaccurate at decent range that no matter how much you practice, that glock won't be headshotting the peaking awp at D2 double doors. That is what I mean by low skill ceiling, not how many skills there are. And as long as a game has two or three high skill ceiling aspects, it is usually pretty good.
You can't honestly think that two to three aspects compared to say, ten is anything. Hence, a game with two to three "uncapped aspects" has a low skill ceiling, because not only you don't have much to excel at you also don't have variety, so the "braingame" is greatly reduced. I mean, just think of how much the non-existant movement skill of halo reduces the thinking in a fight or when traveling through the map, no matter how hard the couple of aspects may be, as the skills basically make each another harder.
On December 01 2010 02:36 Sm3agol wrote: Going to start with QL. You sound like a Cooller fan. Yes, Rapha has utterly dominated. He's finished in the top 3-5 in virtually every tournament he's entered, and placed 1st in well over half of them. In a field of 10-15 competitive QL duelers, that kind of record is dominance, especially considering how random the game can be. Sure his wins often look less than impressive stylisticly, but that's just his play style. And his aim is just very average. Almost everyone aims as well as he does, and most aim better. His movement speed is not very good. It, like his aim, is very average. He can make the normal "difficult" jumps and tricks that every decent QL dueler can make, but he never wows you with a great map run or anything.
Watch some toxjq in the times of his q4 reign. That's dominance. This? He was just the best player, and even though his consistency is astonishing he never was "that far above" everyone, so no, he wasn't dominating. The word utter would definitely have to imply that he was dominating in-game, not just in paper. His dodging ( a part of movement ) is just amazing.
And back to Halo, you didn't even try to argue my point. You just stated it was wrong.......? It makes perfect sense to me. If a game has a low skill ceiling then it is virtually impossible for any one person to stand out, because anyone can hit that relatively low ceiling with a lot of practice. If one person can dominate, that means either noone is trying to get better or there are still skills that you can improve on, aka, it does not have a low skill ceiling.
You seem to be confused as to what a low skill ceiling is, maybe. It means you can only get so good at it. At some point in your practicing most games(CoD, CSS, etc) no matter how much anyone practices, they are limited in how good they can get by the game itself. For instance, movement in Halo has a VERY low skill ceiling, while in Quake, its virtually limitless, as more and more practice can get you more and more movement ability. Aim in a lot of FPS games is this way, the weapons are so inaccurate at decent range that no matter how much you practice, that glock won't be headshotting the peaking awp at D2 double doors. That is what I mean by low skill ceiling, not how many skills there are. And as long as a game has two or three high skill ceiling aspects, it is usually pretty good.
You can't honestly think that two to three aspects compared to say, ten is anything. Hence, a game with two to three "uncapped aspects" has a low skill ceiling, because not only you don't have much to excel at you also don't have variety, so the "braingame" is greatly reduced. I mean, just think of how much the non-existant movement skill of halo reduces the thinking in a fight or when traveling through the map, no matter how hard the couple of aspects may be, as the skills basically make each another harder.
Toxiq in Q4? Rofl? Q4, enough said. Noone really gave a crap. Sure a lot of decent players gave it a chance, but it was nowhere near as universal as Q3, and hence the competition level was drastically lower than Q3. And also like I said, i don't care how he wins, he just keeps winning. You don't have to utter dominate ingame to utterly dominate the game. His playstyle doesn't allow him to dominate the game. His aim and movement aren't good enough to let him dominate, his dodging and positioning skills are what make him amazing. And while they win you games, they don't rack up the big scores. If someone is down 2 frags with 2 minutes left vs rapha, and he is in control you can basically kiss the match goodbye, you won't be coming back unless you hit some ridiculous shots over and over again.
And if you think I'm saying Halo is on an EQUAL skill level with QL, then I'll put that to rest immediately. Heck no. But that doesn't make Halo a terrible game/esport. Its just not as deep, while still being quite difficult at high levels.
On December 01 2010 08:40 Sm3agol wrote: Toxiq in Q4? Rofl? Q4, enough said. Noone really gave a crap. Sure a lot of decent players gave it a chance, but it was nowhere near as universal as Q3, and hence the competition level was drastically lower than Q3. And also like I said, i don't care how he wins, he just keeps winning. You don't have to utter dominate ingame to utterly dominate the game. His playstyle doesn't allow him to dominate the game. His aim and movement aren't good enough to let him dominate, his dodging and positioning skills are what make him amazing. And while they win you games, they don't rack up the big scores. If someone is down 2 frags with 2 minutes left vs rapha, and he is in control you can basically kiss the match goodbye, you won't be coming back unless you hit some ridiculous shots over and over again.
It doesn't matter if they cared or not, he utterly dominated. As for the other part, it's entirely subjective if that can be called utter dominance I guess. I have a very strong gut feeling that that ABSOLUTELY CANNOT be called dominance, but your choice. Now, about his style... I think you misjudge the games man, almost thinking of other players as of bots and considering rapha the guy who calculates how much less he is gonna hit and how much more he will need to hit in a cheeky way\ how much more he'll need to collect. That is not the case man, and if he had the same aim\ movement (which is not that bad again, I entirely disagree with you on this subject - it's not about the wow moments man, consistency is also a part of it) and A LOT better dodging and positioning he would win more (and it's not just that here, it's also about making the right choices, even more so I'd say). To be honest I feel like you're just trying to disagree and just spewing out random bits that come up in your head , I don't think anyone that bothered to think about it\had the knowledge would think that rapha's playstyle (and you probably meant aiming\movement skills, cuz they're not the same as playstyle, but this still applies) doesn't let him dominate, or would make a straw argument like the one you made in the first paragraph.
And if you think I'm saying Halo is on an EQUAL skill level with QL, then I'll put that to rest immediately. Heck no. But that doesn't make Halo a terrible game/esport. Its just not as deep, while still being quite difficult at high levels.
It might even be more difficult (much like winning a contest of 3-point shots in basketball could be harder than winning in basketball itself because you need more talent, yet have less skill, even though that's unlikely and I think it's not in this case (both basketball and halo )) and still have a lower skill ceiling, I'm just saying that the skill ceiling thing works like a geometrical rather than arithmetical progression and so a couple more uncapped skills might mean 5 times as many stuff to work on, hence the statement, Halo has a low skill ceiling. I would argue that does make for a bad esport, because it just makes the game way less varied, interesting and skillful, where are we going if we continue choosing games that just make things simpler?
They tried to push fps games on TV and it was a pathetic failure.
Why would anyone want to watch that? I thought we were having a discussion about serious e-sports as in events that could attract a casual or non gamer audience :p
On December 02 2010 04:00 Kickboxer wrote: Guys... no one cares about fps games, sorry.
They tried to push fps games on TV and it was a pathetic failure.
Why would anyone want to watch that? I thought we were having a discussion about serious e-sports as in events that could attract a casual or non gamer audience :p
I'm sorry to be this rough but you have ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE. Why? Because the push you were speaking about failed not because of fps, it's extremely silly to think so and I'm absolutely sure I could win this argument, if you had any arguments of your own . I'm referring to the CGS here, but I'm also sure that any other example you could give would be as false as this one. Also, FPS games are extremely popular, MORE CASUAL from a uncompetitive standpoint and easier to understand on anything more on the basic level than RTS (less people will agree on this here I'd guess, but it's pretty much the general truth most big people in esports would agree on). And I guess the sole example you've based your view on is starcraft, but an exception to a rule (even if it's the only exampe ) doesn't to make the rule false.
I hope I'm not getting trolled here[edit: the number of strong words like absolutely, sure, extremely surely /etc indicates that I am =[ ]
You can say the same thing about all videogames. RTS games aren't even half as popular as shooters are in the West. Vida games on TV is a cultural phenomenon that your only going to see in Korea. As for streaming, strategy games are more popular because you can't stream a fps game without a third party doing it because latency is the most important factor in the game and it affects hit registration.
On December 02 2010 05:45 Jswizzy wrote: As for streaming, strategy games are more popular because you can't stream a fps game without a third party doing it because latency is the most important factor in the game and it affects hit registration.
Streaming strategy games is more popular because the games are better\ people prefer them or for other reasons as streaming a fps game isn't a problem at all these days. I'm not even sure, what you mean is halo as it's on console perhaps? If so, I have to say that console shooter streaming is still most likely not as popular as PC shooter streaming, where streaming is a non-issue thing.
SC2, SC:BR, Counter Strike 1.6, Quake, Dota, WoW:Arena, Fifa are all up there based on some research. As for fighting games, there's a surprising large amount of series played competitively worldwide (especially Asian countries), though most of it is grassroots. While Street Fighter and Smash are the most popular in the states, there not in the whole world (though still pretty big), the biggest fighters are in fact Tekken and King of Fighters. Tekken in particular is so big in Korea that it has own broadcast show, sometimes rivaling Starcraft's in viewers ( which I'm surprised most people here didn't about, since this website centers alot on the Korean scene).
Going by popularity, the biggest series worldwide are in order KOF, Tekken, SF, then Smash, with Soul Calibur, Blaz Blue, and some SNK fighters in second string.
Tekken is #1 in Korea, Japan, half of Europe and parts of SE Asia but only #2 in most other places were fighters are popular (like China and South Asia). KOF is #1 in China/HK/Taiwan, Pakistan, Latin America, half of Europe and the Mid East. It has a huge following in Korea, Japan, SE Asia, and India too. If you were to go on GGPO (online spot for 2D fighters), KOF is so widely played that its the only series that needs 3 different lobbies.
In my opinion, I feel tekken 6 is having more success than street fighter atm. I see a lot of potential in tekken 6 being another esports as tekken tag team 2 is coming out and it's using the same engine as tekken 6 bloodline reb. You have tekken 6 as an official game now in the World Cyber Games. And you have these competitive tekken 6 teams growing and slowly getting sponsored in korea. They play their matches in the same mbc stadium that sc broodwar is being played in. Tekken crash is popular in korea, its exciting to watch as well. When I went to korea last summer, they have all these tekken 6 machines in the arcades and they were like 30 cents a game <3.
On March 23 2011 12:16 kn83 wrote: SC2, SC:BR, Counter Strike 1.6, Quake, Dota, WoW:Arena, Fifa are all up there based on some research. As for fighting games, there's a surprising large amount of series played competitively worldwide (especially Asian countries), though most of it is grassroots. While Street Fighter and Smash are the most popular in the states, there not in the whole world (though still pretty big), the biggest fighters are in fact Tekken and King of Fighters. Tekken in particular is so big in Korea that it has own broadcast show, sometimes rivaling Starcraft's in viewers ( which I'm surprised most people here didn't about, since this website centers alot on the Korean scene).
Going by popularity, the biggest series worldwide are in order KOF, Tekken, SF, then Smash, with Soul Calibur, Blaz Blue, and some SNK fighters in second string.
User was warned for this post
Tekken may be on TV, but so are games like Kart Rider . . . it doesn't really rival BW in terms of viewership, but the Korean scene is very very active and wins tons of international stuff.
On November 20 2010 04:57 Ogna wrote: Xaeiu thanks for a real answer and not some troll crap or search bla bla, every opinion is helpful
I see youre from austria, I will most likely move to vienna soon and start a business and I will try to incorperate it with esports
OMGOMGOMG PLEASE DO IT! Austria really needs more ESPORTS right now. I will be your best cowtumer if you make it worthwile, or should you happen to need help, or have a job i'll be your guy! I've lived in Vienna all my life and if I can in any way help you let me know! Lets make austria europes greatest ESPORTS hub and the next Korea! I'm serious please PM me if i can help
EPT
lol
) is just amazing.
, I don't think anyone that bothered to think about it\had the knowledge would think that rapha's playstyle (and you probably meant aiming\movement skills, cuz they're not the same as playstyle, but this still applies) doesn't let him dominate, or would make a straw argument like the one you made in the first paragraph.
)) and still have a lower skill ceiling, I'm just saying that the skill ceiling thing works like a geometrical rather than arithmetical progression and so a couple more uncapped skills might mean 5 times as many stuff to work on, hence the statement, Halo has a low skill ceiling. I would argue that does make for a bad esport, because it just makes the game way less varied, interesting and skillful, where are we going if we continue choosing games that just make things simpler?
