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xZiGGY
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom801 Posts
March 13 2012 04:11 GMT
#4001
Sitting on my enthusiasm for glorified children's games for months on end seems fruitless at best Sere :p
Meh.
Serejai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
6007 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-13 13:12:16
March 13 2012 13:07 GMT
#4002
Minecraft is just a boring game in general. Like, you first get it and it's the coolest thing ever. But it's so repetative and there's really no content so after you finish making your awesome house you really lose interest fast.

My personal story... when I first got Minecraft I spend days straight farming and building this awesome house. I was new and didn't really understand how to make weapons so I had an island that I pretty much stayed on all night (where my house was) and only ventured to land during the day. Eventually I got some iron and made a track across the water to a second, larger island... which I dug out to make a mine I could use at night without fear of monsters.

That was when I realized that I was very quickly becomming bored. I had my house... I had a mine... but what was the point of mining? I didn't really feel compelled to build a giant city by myself for no reason. Enter multiplayer.

Multiplayer was the best thing ever when it first came out. Finally I could build large towns with other people! But this, too, became dull rather quickly. After building the town, what next? Monsters were so weak they didn't even matter anymore. PvP was, is, and will likely forever be terrible leaving the only option available... keep building. What most people don't realize is that when they were a kid and played with legos it wasn't fun to just constantly build things. You had cars, roads, boats, trains, planes, etc. Your structures were static but it was fun because you could create a living, breathing city.

That's simply not the case with Minecraft. Everything is inanimate and even if you were to build a car or a plane you can't do anything with them. Legos would've been pretty damn boring, too, if all you could do was look at them once you were done.

Compare Minecraft to a similar game like Terraria. In Terraria you spend your time mining and building just like in Minecraft. But the monsters are actually a challenge and boss fights keep you interested in between builds.

I don't know exactly what Minecraft needs but I do know that progress is far too slow on the game. Looking at Minecraft now and Minecraft in alpha two years ago... nothing at all has really changed. There have been a few new blocks added, a few mobs, a really poorly designed boss fight that was quite honestly a complete waste of resources, an equally terrible new world (two, actually, as the Nether was a really stupid idea as well - and ironically the one good world idea, skylands, was scrapped), and some features ported in from plugins (powered rails, pistons, dispensers). There hasn't been a single decent feature added in two years that wasn't already available via plugins. I can't imagine more than five hours a week has been spent working on Minecraft since it hit beta and it really shows.

Where are lanterns? Hang gliders? All the other decent features that have been promised for years and are instead pushed to the backburner for things like cake and baby animals?

We've had about 4,500 unique players on this server since I started it a few years ago. The average playtime for someone is about one day - or just enough time for them to build a house, then disappear. There are certainly some die hard players who love building but the overwhelming majority simply get bored after they complete their initial home. That was a problem I was hoping to rectify with this new server before Bukkit decided "LOL NOPE WE ARE GONNA SCREW YOU OVER LOLZ".

In short, you guys have likely noticed that in the entire time I've been running this server I have never actually played myself. This is because - even though I really, really enjoy map/terrain design - I get burnt out simply building the spawn towns and whatnot and end up having zero interest actually playing. I try really, really hard to play but I simply can't bring myself to do it because there is absolutely zero challenge.

This game has been in decline for quite a while now... daily sales figures during alpha were 30k+ per day, and for the last year that number has been sitting around 6-8k per day. Most servers have closed up shop and the only ones that tend to be left are heavily themed ones like RPG or themed-build servers. Even those are a fraction of what they used to be.

Anyway, I feel the glory days are long since gone and as such the people playing right now tend to be those die hard, close knit players. Unfortunately this is a small group, so you won't see 50+ on the server like it used to be. I think we've peaked at like 15 this time around.

I just woke up and felt like ranting. Also, I'm considering taking the server down until all of this Bukkit stuff gets worked out. There are only a couple people per day logging in and I'd personally rather have the CPU resources put towards the new world but I don't know.
I HAVE 5 TOAST POINTS
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
March 13 2012 13:22 GMT
#4003
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 13 2012 22:07 Serejai wrote:
Minecraft is just a boring game in general. Like, you first get it and it's the coolest thing ever. But it's so repetative and there's really no content so after you finish making your awesome house you really lose interest fast.

My personal story... when I first got Minecraft I spend days straight farming and building this awesome house. I was new and didn't really understand how to make weapons so I had an island that I pretty much stayed on all night (where my house was) and only ventured to land during the day. Eventually I got some iron and made a track across the water to a second, larger island... which I dug out to make a mine I could use at night without fear of monsters.

That was when I realized that I was very quickly becomming bored. I had my house... I had a mine... but what was the point of mining? I didn't really feel compelled to build a giant city by myself for no reason. Enter multiplayer.

Multiplayer was the best thing ever when it first came out. Finally I could build large towns with other people! But this, too, became dull rather quickly. After building the town, what next? Monsters were so weak they didn't even matter anymore. PvP was, is, and will likely forever be terrible leaving the only option available... keep building. What most people don't realize is that when they were a kid and played with legos it wasn't fun to just constantly build things. You had cars, roads, boats, trains, planes, etc. Your structures were static but it was fun because you could create a living, breathing city.

That's simply not the case with Minecraft. Everything is inanimate and even if you were to build a car or a plane you can't do anything with them. Legos would've been pretty damn boring, too, if all you could do was look at them once you were done.

Compare Minecraft to a similar game like Terraria. In Terraria you spend your time mining and building just like in Minecraft. But the monsters are actually a challenge and boss fights keep you interested in between builds.

I don't know exactly what Minecraft needs but I do know that progress is far too slow on the game. Looking at Minecraft now and Minecraft in alpha two years ago... nothing at all has really changed. There have been a few new blocks added, a few mobs, a really poorly designed boss fight that was quite honestly a complete waste of resources, an equally terrible new world (two, actually, as the Nether was a really stupid idea as well - and ironically the one good world idea, skylands, was scrapped), and some features ported in from plugins (powered rails, pistons, dispensers). There hasn't been a single decent feature added in two years that wasn't already available via plugins. I can't imagine more than five hours a week has been spent working on Minecraft since it hit beta and it really shows.

Where are lanterns? Hang gliders? All the other decent features that have been promised for years and are instead pushed to the backburner for things like cake and baby animals?

We've had about 4,500 unique players on this server since I started it a few years ago. The average playtime for someone is about one day - or just enough time for them to build a house, then disappear. There are certainly some die hard players who love building but the overwhelming majority simply get bored after they complete their initial home. That was a problem I was hoping to rectify with this new server before Bukkit decided "LOL NOPE WE ARE GONNA SCREW YOU OVER LOLZ".

In short, you guys have likely noticed that in the entire time I've been running this server I have never actually played myself. This is because - even though I really, really enjoy map/terrain design - I get burnt out simply building the spawn towns and whatnot and end up having zero interest actually playing. I try really, really hard to play but I simply can't bring myself to do it because there is absolutely zero challenge.

This game has been in decline for quite a while now... daily sales figures during alpha were 30k+ per day, and for the last year that number has been sitting around 6-8k per day. Most servers have closed up shop and the only ones that tend to be left are heavily themed ones like RPG or themed-build servers. Even those are a fraction of what they used to be.

Anyway, I feel the glory days are long since gone and as such the people playing right now tend to be those die hard, close knit players. Unfortunately this is a small group, so you won't see 50+ on the server like it used to be. I think we've peaked at like 15 this time around.

I just woke up and felt like ranting. Also, I'm considering taking the server down until all of this Bukkit stuff gets worked out. There are only a couple people per day logging in and I'd personally rather have the CPU resources put towards the new world but I don't know.

Minecraft's problem is that it is too limited for a sandbox (not enough features) and yet at the same time too limited as an RPG/Survival game (again, not enough things), and the developers dont seem to give a crap about bettering these core issues, not to mention that the 3d engine itself is meh as well. Just this last patch, finally the height limit was increased?
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
Serejai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
6007 Posts
March 13 2012 13:46 GMT
#4004
Yeah. The last patch had an AI improvement, height map increase, and some other minor changes. Obviously I don't know the exact amount of work that goes into things but they have a dedicated AI developer so he spent two months working on the AI improvements, and I assume Jeb spent most of his time working on the new save format/heigh increase. All of the other "features" of 1.2 were things like new mobs and blocks which take quite literally minutes to add to the game. Oh, and the Jungle biome which also takes a day tops to create and add (took me about six hours to replicate it without knowing what I was doing, personally).

I have no idea what they spend their time doing at the office but it's certainly not working on the game in ways they should be. My guess is they've all basically moved on to this new Scrolls game or whatever and Minecraft is just managed by a skeleton crew consisting of Jeb and the AI guy (who both likely work on Scrolls as well).

As you said it's a really limited sandbox and also a really limited "game". They keep flip flopping between features... add some sandbox here, some RPG there. At this rate the game would be great in ten years, but they really need to give it an identity first and THEN start adding to it. Either pick sandbox or RPG and focus on that until it's complete.

Here is a list of features Notch has confirmed will be in the game - some as long as two years ago - and are still nowhere to be seen (pulled from wiki):

Sponges
Cocoa Bean Trees
Skylands/Sky Dimension
Capture the Flag
Mounting/Controlling Mobs
Minecarts as lava boats
The ability to write in books
Custom Paintings
Stereoscopic and/or Green/Magenta 3D
More Powerful Powered Minecarts
Audio Loops
Friends list
Multithreading
Limited maps
Video support
Special biomes
Dual-wielding
Portable Fireplaces/Campfires
Display cases/racks
The ability to name Chests
Zipline Mod
Red Dragon

And that's missing a few as well. I think the big issue is that he seems to plan all of this stuff but never follows through with it... or simply takes overly long. Remember the Adventure Update? He had to split that into two parts because he bit off more than he could chew. Ditto on the Boo Update (in which the second part, a year and a half later, still hasn't happened).
I HAVE 5 TOAST POINTS
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-13 14:27:01
March 13 2012 14:25 GMT
#4005
Honestly, whenever I look at games like Terraria or Dwarf Fortress and how they evolved since they first started... and then back at Minecraft I feel similarly sad as you do. I blame notch for getting rich with not enough work. =(

For me, personally, Minecrafting always comes in bursts. e.g. I think I haven't shown up on the server except for pickup advice (lolol) in the last two weeks at all but once I'm in the mood I'll probably powergame for a week straight again. Still so much stuff unfinished. =D


HOWEVER:
I just woke up and felt like ranting. Also, I'm considering taking the server down until all of this Bukkit stuff gets worked out. There are only a couple people per day logging in and I'd personally rather have the CPU resources put towards the new world but I don't know.


I wouldn't be happy at all if you decided to do that because I believe the few people who log and myself are still having lots of fun on there. Also I think a lot of people are still not at the "Fuck yes, I'm done"-stage of their project so they can finally brag about it and feel awesome.


However, I understand that this is a damn selfish view so I have exactly one request: If, IF, IF you one day decide to take the entire server down please for the love of god make sure we can download the map(s) somewhere. I believe that everyone who put work and heart into making this server a cool and awesome looking place deserves that much respect back from you.


PS: <3 u for the server anyway.

PPS: Probably the only thing I'm annoyed as to how you run the show is that you never show up, but you kinda explained the reasoning behind it. But, yeah, from day 1 it was sad to see that you were demotivated as hell since the entire rpg stuff went down the drain. =/
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Serejai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
6007 Posts
March 13 2012 15:29 GMT
#4006
Well, you know I used to sit on the server practically 24/7 back in the day. Mostly because I had to (remember when I could only leave the server on overnight if a mod was going to be online?). However, I did socialize a lot and was always active. I was really, REALLY into things when I first re-opened the server (I was on the dev server like 10+ hours a day just playing with random things). But yeah, I lost all will to really play the game once the plugin/Bukkit issues started happening.

It's extremely frustrating to see hundreds of hours of work become useless overnight. I also haven't been very involved with my computer in general, though. Haven't been watching SC2/DOTA 2 anymore, haven't really been playing any games, etc. I think I'm just bored of games in general at the moment.
I HAVE 5 TOAST POINTS
MisterD
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1338 Posts
March 13 2012 15:48 GMT
#4007
this is growing into a blog :D My interest in games has been declining for some time too, but i recently started just playing small games, a ton of indie stuff, nothing big that really gets you involved, and that's something i still enjoy largely. Man, those old times when i put a 60watts blub right over my face with a timer to wake up at 4 in the morning just to play roller coaster tycoon or industry giant before my parents got up and could get mad at me for playing to much on the computer? That kind of getting hooked was awesome! i don't know if i lost it or if i just don't allow that to happen, because i am aware that giving in to it would fuck up any schedule i had for a week and i couldn't help but hate myself afterwards, because it was hammered into my brain during my upbringing that not doing something productive is basically a waste of life time and i still can't get over that :x

As for minecraft, i feel fairly similarly. It's just millions and millions of dead worlds. As a developer myself i absolutely know of these productivity pits you can fall into, like mojang has by now. I'm not yet in the field long enough to know how much these pits are actually required to maintain a certain output quality, but i and a few university buddies have dropped into a very similar pit with a software we are writing. A temporary part of this is of course, that you design your software to some degree of abstraction, and then reach the edges of that. At that point your productivity takes a huge hit because you suddenly have to clean up and abstract half your codebase further with everything you put into it. That can however resolve itself after you have gone over most stuff and increased the abstraction level to suffice for the time forth.

But, additionally, there might just be a one way hole, where when your software grows large enough, the complexity of quality control just grows so enormously, that your productivity just dies with it. i refuse to believe, that this is one way so far, but i'm at a lack of experience here. Reform and reworking of quality assurance measures and processes may be able to solve this issue, but i haven't seen or done myself something like that yet. So maybe this slowness of development is a result of notch's early releases, breaking multiplayer features with every change he put public. By increasing quality assurance to keep these bugs out of releases, the development speed might just have largely died.

And of course mojang developing 4+ games now (minecraft, scrolls, cobalt, "minicraft"? and whatever else kind of weird ideas notch has come up with) simultaneously, while still only consisting of less 3 or so actual programmers? doesn't help either.
Gold isn't everything in life... you need wood, too!
Aixler
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands946 Posts
March 13 2012 21:50 GMT
#4008
At this point in time you simply need something more than just a map to build on. Everyone has build their house/base/village, collected full diamond gear and there is nothing left to do. In order to keep a server alive you need more, like pvp/pve events etc.

That's what got me to play on this server in the first place, the plans for rpg, doing dungeons together with new enemies etc. And I'm sure that as soon as that is finally up and working, people will come back and play more.
And if other events would be implemented, like the several types of pvp arenas and pve challenges, there is a reason to play more and hang out on the server with others.

Basically, most of the features promised on the main page aren't implemented, once they are, the server should become active again. I for one am really looking forward to it, after all the hard work put into them.

And on a small side note, seeing admins flying around, importing and building with creative mode, on what I thought was supposed to be a 'legit' server really takes away some of the magic.
Melancholia
Profile Joined March 2010
United States717 Posts
March 14 2012 20:22 GMT
#4009
Yeah, there have been a few times where I had to tell Aeres to get rid of cheated stuff when I was working on something. If that's what it takes to keep him around so often so that we can have quick mod responses then ok, but it's a necessary evil at that point, it still isn't ideal.
Melancholia
Profile Joined March 2010
United States717 Posts
March 14 2012 20:26 GMT
#4010
Also, out of curiosity, what would be the performance impact if the map size was increased? There's no exploration on a server where I can get anywhere in 10 minutes.
julianto
Profile Joined December 2010
2292 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 02:36:45
March 15 2012 02:34 GMT
#4011
Hi. I just logged in today and I found out ALL of my chests, which are not public, are empty.
Can a mod please restore the contents? The most important things were the diamonds, iron, wool, and dirt. Dirt.

edit: Oh, and bone meal so I can make more tools.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Serejai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
6007 Posts
March 15 2012 15:17 GMT
#4012
Server will be offline for a bit. No current ETA but likely in the range of 1-3 days.
I HAVE 5 TOAST POINTS
xZiGGY
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom801 Posts
March 15 2012 17:32 GMT
#4013
man sere sounds like you need to unplug for a while bro ;p meaningful objectives in computer games as a metric of gaming worth seems like fallacy and frustrated cry for help D: go ride a horse or something o.o
Meh.
MaV_gGSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1345 Posts
March 15 2012 17:40 GMT
#4014
Liquid block is pretty sick
Life's good :D
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-15 19:42:17
March 15 2012 19:41 GMT
#4015
I would be playing technically but the problem is my mine keeps bumping into other people's mines and then I get annoyed >___>

which is probably why I can't find diamonds.

(then again I should be focusing on sc2... )
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
actionbastrd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Congo598 Posts
March 16 2012 08:41 GMT
#4016
noooooooo server is down D:, thanks for all your hard work with the server Serejai ^__^ appreciate it. This server is the only reason a friend and i picked up minecraft again actually.
It rained today inside my head...
missefficiency
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany105 Posts
March 21 2012 12:08 GMT
#4017
Is it just me or is the server still offline? Took a break from playing too, but feel like taking it up again =)
“If you want to support others you have to stay upright yourself.” ― Peter Høeg
julianto
Profile Joined December 2010
2292 Posts
March 21 2012 17:54 GMT
#4018
Hey I just finished all my finals and I was hoping to waste my spring break playing on the server
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
March 21 2012 18:55 GMT
#4019
Waitwhat.

What happened to "1-3 days"?
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
julianto
Profile Joined December 2010
2292 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-21 19:56:31
March 21 2012 19:55 GMT
#4020
On March 22 2012 03:55 r.Evo wrote:
Waitwhat.

What happened to "1-3 days"?

What he didn't mention was a margin of error of a week.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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