EPTMagic: The Gathering - Page 628
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22706 Posts
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Naracs_Duc
746 Posts
On November 17 2015 07:51 Gorsameth wrote: I would reason there is a difference between not following rules that have 0 impact on the game or its outcome (like using fake copies) and actual game influences action. There is already room for events where you don't own the cards needed. Casual events that allow proxies, kitchen table magic, etc... There are lots of support for those types of games. And there is lots of support for high payout high risk events that require plane tickets, qualifier tournaments, etc... In your local meta where you're as likely to find people run paper print out proxies as you do seeing people bring in fakes--yeah, theres room. But when you're talking about a broadcasted, premier event whose only purpose is to show who has the best 75 cards with the specific rule of no proxies and no fakes--it disparages the soul of the game to do so. There are already events where you are allowed those types of cards. There's no need to bring those types of cards to actual competitive events. | ||
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HeatEXTEND
Netherlands836 Posts
On November 17 2015 07:59 Naracs_Duc wrote: There's no need to bring those types of cards to actual competitive events. There would be if you wanted to compete in said event but didn't have the actual cards of whatever deck you came up with :/ | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
On November 17 2015 09:22 HeatEXTEND wrote: There would be if you wanted to compete in said event but didn't have the actual cards of whatever deck you came up with :/ I would retort that if it weren't for a healthy secondary market then those competitive events wouldn't exist. Wizards knows it relies on large numbers of low-level local tournaments to maintain the popularity of the game. Those low-level tournaments are organized by local game stores (LGSes), often whose primary sources of income are derived from the secondary market for the cards they produce. Without a huge network of those LGSes organizing those low-level tournaments, Grand-prix scale tournaments would probably be impossible to organize because there wouldn't be the underlying community structure to support it. If you wanna play with proxies in a casual setting with your friends at home, go nuts. I have no problem with that whatsoever. I, myself, am building an alternative-art proxy foil cube. But if the community you want to be a part of is the semi-competitive/competitive tournament scene structured around LGSes, then you need to pay for your deck (ideally with some components bought from your LGS). Otherwise you're pretty much just free-loading. There are legitimate complaints about the price of Magic. Close to $1000 dollar standard decks are pretty retarded, it shouldn't cost that much, I agree. But this is a semi-unique standard environment, as others alluded to, revolving around the lands now currently in standard. I suspect that post-rotation this will be less of an issue. | ||
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MoxSapphire
Denmark7 Posts
On November 17 2015 09:22 HeatEXTEND wrote: There would be if you wanted to compete in said event but didn't have the actual cards of whatever deck you came up with :/ Well, the event rules specifically states that the cards you play with has to be genuine, so knowingly playing with fakes is really just asking for it. You accept the rules when you sign up for the tourney, so the secondary "I needed to play with Goyfs, but" just doesn't hold up. Sure, they are expensive, and so is standard at the moment, but the current "price to compete" is just high at the moment. It'll wane again. It's not the first time this has happened. I remember seeing a playset of Rishadan Ports being sold at Swedish Nationals for something that resembles $700. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On November 17 2015 09:22 HeatEXTEND wrote: There would be if you wanted to compete in said event but didn't have the actual cards of whatever deck you came up with :/ Not everybody has to compete in premier events. If you want to, you need real cards, simple as that. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
The biggest issues are the lands since you need them, and they have far spread uses. I wouldn't be against them putting them in a different standalone set at uncommon on a limited run. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Remember that as long as a standard deck costs $1000 to build, people opened over $1000 worth of packs for you to make that deck. People talk about how WotC doesn't control the secondary market but that's obviously bullshit. WotC know damn well how many rare lands your average deck is going to run etc etc. | ||
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Naracs_Duc
746 Posts
On November 18 2015 07:38 Sn0_Man wrote: yes but wizards will never print premier lands at uncommon because they don't make as much money. Remember that as long as a standard deck costs $1000 to build, people opened over $1000 worth of packs for you to make that deck. People talk about how WotC doesn't control the secondary market but that's obviously bullshit. WotC know damn well how many rare lands your average deck is going to run etc etc. WotC doesn't make the money when cards are expensive, its the store owners and website owners who make that. WotC makes as much from a bad mythic as they do from a chase mythic. The more expensive the cards, more popular the meta, the more money stores make, the better for the local community. Fakes are banned because the only group they hurt are local businesses. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On November 18 2015 07:53 Naracs_Duc wrote: WotC doesn't make the money when cards are expensive, its the store owners and website owners who make that. WotC makes as much from a bad mythic as they do from a chase mythic. The more expensive the cards, more popular the meta, the more money stores make, the better for the local community. That simply isn't true When a deck costs an amount of money, it means that MORE than that amount of money has been opened in packs to make the deck. If that wasn't the case, simply opening packs would be positive Expected Value, which it never is (barring prerelease fringe cases). Just like every time wotc prints a powerful common/uncommon, they LOSE MONEY because it doesn't move packs as well as it would at rare or mythic. Since many lands are auto-includes, printing them at rare will never stop because to not do so is to make less money. | ||
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Naracs_Duc
746 Posts
On November 18 2015 07:57 Sn0_Man wrote: That simply isn't true When a deck costs an amount of money, it means that MORE than that amount of money has been opened in packs to make the deck. If that wasn't the case, simply opening packs would be positive Expected Value, which it never is (barring prerelease fringe cases). Just like every time wotc prints a powerful common/uncommon, they LOSE MONEY because it doesn't move packs as well as it would at rare or mythic. Since many lands are auto-includes, printing them at rare will never stop because to not do so is to make less money. The more popular a format, the more packs will be opened. The less popular a format, the less packs are opened. If anything WotC makes most of its money from Drafts that literally opens 3packs a person every time it is played. Which means WotC makes MORE money (according to your dumb metric) from good commons/uncommons. Card cost has nothing to do with just their rarity. There's a reason that not all the Planeswalkers in Origins are 70-80 each despite there being an even number of Jace/Nissa/Lili/etc... What drives up cost is demand both for constructed and non-constructed value. Planeswalkers, Legends, Commander Staples, Constructed staples--all will go up and down disproportionally from their performance. Case in point--Rhino is a cheap Mythic but Thunderbreak Regent is middle-costed Rare despite Thunderbreak Regent seeing LESS play than Rhino. Why? Because its a dragon and casuals love dragons. There is no conspiracy for WotC to try to gouge your wallets with their selective design of Mythics and Rares when they keep getting it wrong all the time about which ones are going to be good or not. The truth is that the more popular the game becomes, the higher the demand, the higher the costs to buy stuff. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The question is, does standard need to be a format where cards are regularly that powerful? Do we need a format that expects to play cards like Ruinous Path and Utter End when a Standard format where Doom Blade, Oblivion Ring, and Terminate are the best removal can be a completely healthy format? Seeing standard this powerful makes it less appealing for me to play. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On November 18 2015 09:34 TheYango wrote: I don't think there's anything wrong with cards like Siege Rhino or Mantis Rider being rare. For that level of power, the rarity is appropriate. The question is, does standard need to be a format where cards are regularly that powerful? Do we need a format that expects to play cards like Ruinous Path and Utter End when a Standard format where Doom Blade, Oblivion Ring, and Terminate are the best removal can be a completely healthy format? Seeing standard this powerful makes it less appealing for me to play. Except in the standard format where Doom Blade, Oblivion Ring, and Terminate are legal, creatures of any power level are fairly useless and control is always the best strategy. I love the new approach to standard where even the control decks are at least somewhat creature based. I find stuff like the old U/W Revelation control decks incredibly boring to play with and against regardless of how "skill testing" they are. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On November 18 2015 09:34 TheYango wrote: I don't think there's anything wrong with cards like Siege Rhino or Mantis Rider being rare. For that level of power, the rarity is appropriate. The question is, does standard need to be a format where cards are regularly that powerful? Do we need a format that expects to play cards like Ruinous Path and Utter End when a Standard format where Doom Blade, Oblivion Ring, and Terminate are the best removal can be a completely healthy format? Seeing standard this powerful makes it less appealing for me to play. And the power level of standard is about to drop drastically with the rotation of KTK as you know. Plz you're a modern fanboi anyway don't even front | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The absurdly high efficiency of Khans block staples, bullshit mana-bases, and high buy-in cost makes it not feel like Standard. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
they aren't there to make any format any more or less expensive. | ||
Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On November 18 2015 10:45 Sn0_Man wrote: I mean, the expeditions are supposed to be $100 bills slipped into packs because bfz has almost no desirable cards they aren't there to make any format any more or less expensive. Similar to Worldwake, or as we called it at my local shop: "The Mind Sculptor lottery" | ||
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/648035-ogw-kozilek-the-great-distortion-and-new-basic If these are real. | ||
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