EPTMagic: The Gathering - Page 629
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
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LennX
4568 Posts
Kozilek looks weakish to me unless you can cheat him into play | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
EDIT 2: Though this raises the question still of whether sources that previously produced "colorless" mana will still produce "colorless" or if they'll produce "generic" mana. I.e. can new Kozilek be paid for with mana produced by a painland? | ||
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MoxSapphire
Denmark7 Posts
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
On November 18 2015 17:00 TheYango wrote: EDIT: nm just read about the distinction between "colorless mana" and "generic mana". That seems stupidly confusing. EDIT 2: Though this raises the question still of whether sources that previously produced "colorless" mana will still produce "colorless" or if they'll produce "generic" mana. I.e. can new Kozilek be paid for with mana produced by a painland? Well, previously (X) cards as a cost represented both colorless mana and generic mana in the sense that either colored mana or colorless mana could be used to cast it, irregardless of source. However mana generators only produce colorless mana, there is no such thing as generated generic mana. I think that this symbol will just replace the (X) symbols in all generated mana sources (pain lands, palladium myrs, etc) going forward. I remember asking about this when I started playing and this change would fix this. As for the casting costs Wizards will have the ability to print cards that specifically require colorless mana. It would make sense thematically for Eldrazi, whether or not they carry it forward as a casting cost is to be seen, but it's likely for some powerful artifacts. | ||
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MoxSapphire
Denmark7 Posts
Ie. "<> <> can only be paid with colorless mana" Edit: If they are real, the new lands might play rather funny with Converge in limited. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
How do I know this? The lands tap for <>, which is different than tapping for colorless. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
This new land seems like a new answer to that problem - how do you make colorless cards that can only be used by certain kinds of decks? The answer seems to be a new basic land. Every card that uses this new mana is colorless, but they require a new type of land to be used, preventing them from being used unless you want to dedicate to them to some extent. Design-wise, it's actually a pretty elegant answer to the problem they've been facing with the Eldrazi. | ||
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HeatEXTEND
Netherlands836 Posts
On November 18 2015 06:42 NewSunshine wrote: Not everybody has to compete in premier events. If you want to, you need real cards, simple as that. Obviously, but that wasn't the point  .And I understand why MTG operates like it does and pretty much has to, I guess I'm just salty still about my friend rolling his "bought" deck into our group years ago, waking us up to the cold hard real world  | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 19 2015 03:15 HeatEXTEND wrote: Obviously, but that wasn't the point .And I understand why MTG operates like it does and pretty much has to, I guess I'm just salty still about my friend rolling his "bought" deck into our group years ago, waking us up to the cold hard real world Well there's nothing stopping you from playing proxies/fakes in your local play group or for casual games. People should understand that for playtesting purposes you're going to want to actually play with a card a few times before committing to it, plus some formats have just a high barrier to entry. The legacy guys at my store are totally fine with playing games with people who have proxied decks since they know they wouldn't otherwise get enough people to play anyway. Someone who's going to be a stickler about proxies for kitchen table Magic just doesn't seem like someone who'd be fun to play with. But when you're playing at competitive REL, you play by WotC's rules. You're not in any way entitled to play in those events, and it's not some extortion of their playerbase for WotC to require real cards to play in them. "Forced to pay hundreds of dollars to play at competitive REL" is in no way synonymous with "forced to pay hundreds of dollars to play Magic". | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On November 19 2015 00:14 deth2munkies wrote: There's no possible way that <> means "with colorless mana". It's a new basic land type that we will only see in this block and perhaps when we see Emrakul in some future set. How do I know this? The lands tap for <>, which is different than tapping for colorless. It's possible that moving forward, lands that tap for colorless will tap for <>. The fact that they would be doing this mid-block is the main argument against it, but differentiating colorless and generic mana makes sense as a general idea. On November 18 2015 17:00 TheYango wrote: EDIT: nm just read about the distinction between "colorless mana" and "generic mana". That seems stupidly confusing. EDIT 2: Though this raises the question still of whether sources that previously produced "colorless" mana will still produce "colorless" or if they'll produce "generic" mana. I.e. can new Kozilek be paid for with mana produced by a painland? Hopefully. Or else this mechanic is way too parasitic. Also "generic" mana isn't something that a land produces; it just means mana of any color or no color, and only appears in costs. Lands will still produce colorless mana, it's just a matter of what <> means exactly. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
I honestly think it's just a block-specific Eldrazi mana type that's just meant to be a special thing for this block (and possibly a future one with Emrakul) that won't impact play as a whole. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Naracs_Duc
746 Posts
On November 19 2015 07:14 deth2munkies wrote: The most reasonable reading of the card (and least impactful) is simply that <> is a color symbol for colorless mana. You must use X colorless mana to cast the card, while the circle with a number is still generic. So you couldn't cast Kozilek with 12 forests, but 10 forests and 2 Llanowar Wastes or 10 forests and a Hedron Archive would do. I honestly think it's just a block-specific Eldrazi mana type that's just meant to be a special thing for this block (and possibly a future one with Emrakul) that won't impact play as a whole. The main argument against this would be limited. What if you played draft/sealed and got stuck with a bunch of these? Its not like constructed where you could just run painlands or mana artifacts--you'd literally have to stretch your mana base just to cast these cards. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
EDIT: Also remember that Eldrazi Scions would generate <>. It's not like you'd end up with way more <> spells than you could cast given that many of the Scion generators are already decent cards that get picked up frequently already. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On November 19 2015 09:45 TheYango wrote: It actually makes more sense for Limited though, because it'd give UR Devoid (which is probably the most prominent draft archetype right now) an actual mechanic to tie it together, rather than just having lords/tribal mechanics + piggybacking off Ingest (which is more UB than UR). EDIT: Also remember that Eldrazi Scions would generate <>. It's not like you'd end up with way more <> spells than you could cast given that many of the Scion generators are already decent cards that get picked up frequently already. Flavourwise this makes sense as well since all of the Ulamog brood is ingest/process, while the Kozilek brood are the 'colorless matters' theme. | ||
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On November 19 2015 10:07 Draconicfire wrote: They can turn all the colourless mana generators into <> going forward and only use <> in the casting cost for very, very specific cases. It makes sense for Eldrazi since they are colourless incarnate but I can also see them using them for powerful artifacts. You wouldn't even need to print too much Wastes either since a lot of non-basics and creatures produce colourless. But if they print too many cards that require it, that could be bad. So they're going to errata 20 years worth of cards? What's even the point of wastes then if pretty much every other common nonbasic that produces colourless has some other effect? | ||
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