EPTMagic: The Gathering - Page 564
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
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annedeman
Netherlands350 Posts
On September 28 2014 22:16 deth2munkies wrote: Kin-Tree Invocation > Tarmogoyf in Modern Doran so you can play 4x RIP in the side. Thoughts? but then its not really a 2 drop but like an unreliable serra's avenger type creature(that might be larger but is also not evasive) that gets totally blown out by a removal spell in response, is really akward in multiples or in a hand with alot of removal, and in modern keeping up removal is sort of cheap in mana | ||
micronesia
United States24801 Posts
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
-Think about the draft environment and general game flow you want, then build towards that. Cube is still just a draft format in the end. -Emphasize 1-2 drops; mind the curve of the entire cube as there is a natural tendency towards 4-5 drops. -Don't treat singleton as a necessary design constraint. If you think the draft environment would be better with 2 (or more!) of an identical effect, you don't need Wizards to print another version to make it happen. -"Color balance" isn't a matter of having the same number of cards in each color. Better to have slightly fewer cards in one color than subject your drafters to more last-picks in every pack. -There is no "optimal" or "true" cube configuration. Iterate constantly; shake things up occasionally. Any draft format can get stale without updates. -Don't let power level or sheer efficiency be the only metric you view cards by. Do you like limited formats that are defined by bomb rares? If not, don't make your own custom limited format defined by bomb rares. -Run the cards you like, but be willing to cut them. Be willing to cut anything. riptidelab.com is a good resource if you don't mind threads constantly going off-topic. | ||
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annedeman
Netherlands350 Posts
On September 28 2014 23:34 micronesia wrote: Guys do you have any tips for cube creation? A friend of mine made a cube and is asking for feedback on how to make it better, but I don't really know what works in a cube and what to avoid. One limiting factor is that he doesn't have full access to all expensive cards, necessarily. white** i certainly do not think the god-favored general is remotely close to the power level to the other cards, you cant play a card that is an expensive mana sink(you need get through twice and pay 7 mana total to get a worthwhile return) when it works but is just a 1/1 does nothing in the bad scenario, i would play less double coloured 2 drops, a few is fine but aggro decks have relatively hard mana bases in cube, i play less while i got real duels and fetches and painlands in addition to shocks but he only plays shocks. instead look at the alternatives for 1w 1 colourless i dislike the angelic skirmisher, its very bad vs removal and does not have the required power level to compensate, it also does not fit in alot of decks(ramp, real control, if i use a card in a control deck that just dies to removal i atleast want it to be really really good vs aggro and thus be 5 mana like archangel of thune or baneslayer angel) that would play a 6 drop. alot of the enchantments look really weak compared to the power level of the white creatures(which is very high) especially the ghostblade, courage i could see, indestructibility seem extremely awefull, its expensive, your opponent may 2 for one you with removal in response or white removal(none of which it dodges) or 3 for 1 whith blue control magic effects, i sometimes not even works vs black with all the sacrifice effects, i do not mind variance in power levels but i do dislike A+'s and F's in the same cube. exoriate is to slow, its bad in aggresive decks and is likely not even worth running even when your controlish, its almost like having a blank card in your booster. after looking at all the cards i think there are not nearly enough good target effects to make phalanx leader consistent enough and quite a few of them are pretty bad in blue i do not like the Jodah's avenger, its just very very bad, glasskite is not that great but atleast fills some role of an removal resilient finisher. i could advice infiltrator-il-kor i see he has made some effort to make playing blue-x aggro/tempo decks a possibility, but i think it either needs more support or need to be cut, and infiltrator is quite a cheap beatstick blacks need either less or more 1 drops, non of these are good in a non aggresive deck, the chance you get all of them is extremely low, and your not just gonna put 1 or even 2 black one drops in your deck, i would add some amount of gravecrawler, bloodstained hero, tormented hero, sarcomancy or cut em all, especially with so few untapped lands to play them on turn 1 in a not heavy black aggresive deck. blind zealot and accursed spirit, eater of hope and vile rebirth are really suppar creatures, i mean i really dislike putting a 3/2 intimidate in the same cube where you are playing really awesome creatures like thragtusk, and disentomb is also really bad, i would much prefer a 3 mana version that actually gives card advantage. red needs more then 1.5 2 power 1 drops, and i would cut 1 of the fireballs, 3 is very many and few would decks would even play 2. also my personal preference for red is less burn spells and more 1 drops then most cubes, as i think almost pure burn decks lead to much more non-games where there is no interaction green i dislike quirion dryad, its extremely hard to get a good green deck that gets green mana early but is not also almost fully green, to situational(i actually tried her for quite a while), trophy hits like 2 creatures that you can reliably shoot down(without absolutely massive mana infestment), its mostly just a grey ogre artifacts way to little support for mox opal, you really need an extreme amount of artifacts to make that card realistic. whispersilk cloak is way to clunky for cube, i really dislike sol ring in unpowered cubes, sol ring is way way way to powerfull compared to other cards and never leads to interesting games also personally a great fan of porcelain legionair, its not only a great aggresive 2 drop but it makes mana bases much easier and reduces the numbers of games decided by just not drawing the right lands | ||
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annedeman
Netherlands350 Posts
On September 29 2014 00:29 MCMcEmcee wrote: -Don't let power level or sheer efficiency be the only metric you view cards by. Do you like limited formats that are defined by bomb rares? If not, don't make your own custom limited format defined by bomb rares. but what are bombs is largely decided by the power level of the other cards, i think its important the variance in power level in cards is not to extreme, usually people do that by cutting the weakest cards, but cutting the strongest is also a way to go(as peasant/pauper cubes do). cutting the best cards can also help you play your favorite cards if they are usually just not powerfull enough | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On September 28 2014 23:32 annedeman wrote: but then its not really a 2 drop but like an unreliable serra's avenger type creature(that might be larger but is also not evasive) that gets totally blown out by a removal spell in response, is really akward in multiples or in a hand with alot of removal, and in modern keeping up removal is sort of cheap in mana It's also consistently larger, allows you to play 4x RIP, and doesn't cost over $800 for a playset. Apart from the removal spell thing I'd consider it a viable alternative, but that does make it generally worse. Still, I really like the sideboard plan of 4 RIP vs. Storm, opposing goyf decks (the RUG/BUG delver lists especially) and Living End. | ||
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annedeman
Netherlands350 Posts
On September 29 2014 00:45 deth2munkies wrote: It's also consistently larger, allows you to play 4x RIP, and doesn't cost over $800 for a playset. Apart from the removal spell thing I'd consider it a viable alternative, but that does make it generally worse. Still, I really like the sideboard plan of 4 RIP vs. Storm, opposing goyf decks (the RUG/BUG delver lists especially) and Living End. storm,living end, bug and combined are played less then twin they are played less then jund(vs which the first one is reasonable but is abysmal in multiples), also then uwr or pod or affinity or tron or burn. i also am doubting how consistent its larger then goyf, how many more creatures with >4 tougness are you playing then your opponents are playing answers, including counters and discard, goyf is in practice usually around 4/5 size in the early midgame(creature/land/instant/sorcery) and it grows to 5/6 a reasonable amount of the time(mostly artifact or creature, though you can discard the occasional twin/bloodmoon)in my experience(though that sample is possibly biased i am usually on the other side of the board, so there is some bias in the type of decks i play). when you would have got a doran(the only way this is larger then goyf), its actually not larger then goyf because it attacks for 5, another advantage of goyf is that vs the decks playing removal it acts as a lightning rod played before the doran while still being a legitimate threat after it. 4 rest in peace is quite mediocre vs goyf decks(the decks you explicitly(excluding jund here) mentioned combined make up less of the meta then the first 6). vs jund(BGx) playing 4 rest in peaces is just less effective then playing more removal spells, its narrow only hits goyf(and weakens scavenging ooze, but does not retroactively answers them), and you still have to waste both tempo and cards to play them(and redundant pieces are dead) and even goyfs can still chump doran's which is not completely irrelevant, i would rather play more spot removal, i do not dislike the first rest in peace vs jund necessarily, but with 4 there are many more scenario's where they lose you the game,, drawing multiples is just depressing at which point you are just hoping for them to abrupt decay your rip instead of your threats. if you really want to play 4 gy hate i would play 4 relic of progenitus, as being able to cycle them away is a huge deal if you are also using them for value in fair matchup's. i liked this plan far better when they played both deathrites and oozes(it also shuts down deathrite better then ooze), and also like this gy hate plan better in U/R decks that have no normal removal spells to answer goyfs. ofcourse the meta can change back to a point where true gy decks will be relevant again but we are not at that point right now . http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=351&f=MO&meta=79 (its sort of relevant that GBx- is spread in jund,junk and rock and they somehow list the rock as a control deck). i do acknowledge tarmogoyf is very expensive, and frankly its very vanilla and boring to me, but its also very very good(there are also midrange decks posible were he's less good like pod, but those tend to have a radically different gameplan from beating down with undercosted beaters). Its price is also the reason i wont play tarmotwin although tarmotwin is a deck that looks like a deck i would find fun to play. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
Goyf's size is 100% dependent on matchup, but on T2 it's often just a 1/2 or 2/3. I wouldn't bring in 4 against Jund though, you don't bring in 4 for ONLY Goyf decks unless they're running some kind of Loam engine. I'm saying it's an option that's better in some situations, worse in about 60% of situations, and is 1/100th the cost. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 29 2014 03:19 annedeman wrote: storm,living end, bug and combined are played less then twin they are played less then jund(vs which the first one is reasonable but is abysmal in multiples), also then uwr or pod or affinity or tron or burn. i also am doubting how consistent its larger then goyf, how many more creatures with >4 tougness are you playing then your opponents are playing answers, including counters and discard, goyf is in practice usually around 4/5 size in the early midgame(creature/land/instant/sorcery) and it grows to 5/6 a reasonable amount of the time(mostly artifact or creature, though you can discard the occasional twin/bloodmoon)in my experience(though that sample is possibly biased i am usually on the other side of the board, so there is some bias in the type of decks i play). when you would have got a doran(the only way this is larger then goyf), its actually not larger then goyf because it attacks for 5, another advantage of goyf is that vs the decks playing removal it acts as a lightning rod played before the doran while still being a legitimate threat after it. 4 rest in peace is quite mediocre vs goyf decks(the decks you explicitly(excluding jund here) mentioned combined make up less of the meta then the first 6). vs jund(BGx) playing 4 rest in peaces is just less effective then playing more removal spells, its narrow only hits goyf(and weakens scavenging ooze, but does not retroactively answers them), and you still have to waste both tempo and cards to play them(and redundant pieces are dead) and even goyfs can still chump doran's which is not completely irrelevant, i would rather play more spot removal, i do not dislike the first rest in peace vs jund necessarily, but with 4 there are many more scenario's where they lose you the game,, drawing multiples is just depressing at which point you are just hoping for them to abrupt decay your rip instead of your threats. if you really want to play 4 gy hate i would play 4 relic of progenitus, as being able to cycle them away is a huge deal if you are also using them for value in fair matchup's. i liked this plan far better when they played both deathrites and oozes(it also shuts down deathrite better then ooze), and also like this gy hate plan better in U/R decks that have no normal removal spells to answer goyfs. ofcourse the meta can change back to a point where true gy decks will be relevant again but we are not at that point right now . http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=351&f=MO&meta=79 (its sort of relevant that GBx- is spread in jund,junk and rock and they somehow list the rock as a control deck). i do acknowledge tarmogoyf is very expensive, and frankly its very vanilla and boring to me, but its also very very good(there are also midrange decks posible were he's less good like pod, but those tend to have a radically different gameplan from beating down with undercosted beaters). Its price is also the reason i wont play tarmotwin although tarmotwin is a deck that looks like a deck i would find fun to play. TLDR RiP might stop goyf, but when they draw their non-goyf cards drawing more RiP will get you killed. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On September 29 2014 18:48 MCMcEmcee wrote: Treasure Cruise and Monastery Swiftspear already winning the first Legacy Open with Khans. And Monastery Swiftspear was also in the winning Standard deck. | ||
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las91
United States5080 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Creatures (22) 1x Bloodsoaked Champion (need to get 3 more!) 3x Mardu Hateblade 3x Tormented Hero 3x Seeker of the Way (would like another to make a 4 of) 4x Chief of the Scale 2x Chief of the Edge (need 2 more for a 4 of -.-) 3x Mardu Hordechief 3x Timely Hordemate Instants (8) 4x Defiant Strike 1x Murderous Cut 3x Throttle Sorcery (2) 2x Covenant of Blood Enchantments (7) 2x Molting Snakeskin 3x Debilitating Injury 2x Banishing Light Artifact (1) 1x Spear of Heliod Lands (20) 2x Caves of Koilos 4x Scoured Barrens 6x Swamp 8x Plains Can add a 1x Mana Confluence to the lands as well. I guess I should state my goal is to have a solid collection/deck going into the next Standard rotation, IE focusing on picking up more essential/strong KTK/M15s than spending a ton on Theros block, although I am certainly willing to look at those cards as well. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
On September 30 2014 07:42 deth2munkies wrote: And Monastery Swiftspear was also in the winning Standard deck. Sadly it was not Re: bw warriors Molting snakeskin sucks. Would recommend cutting those for pretty much any other card. Probably lands. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
You're right, it was the other Jeskai deck they had on camera earlier. | ||
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Uranium
United States1077 Posts
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las91
United States5080 Posts
On September 30 2014 09:04 Uranium wrote: @las91 - the single best thing you can do for yourself is just buy 2 more Chief of the Edge. It'll cost you $2 which is pretty marginal compared to anything else and they are by far the most efficient creature in the deck. Thanks that was also the first thing on my list ^_^ | ||
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annedeman
Netherlands350 Posts
hero and champion need to be 4 off's, you get outclassed massively in the midgame by the midrange decks so the most important thing is going under, chief of the edge is great in that it allows your one drop aggresive warrior to get passed caryatid, a major road block for most 1 drop creatures, so chief, bloodsoaked champion and the last tormented hero are indeed first priority. i would cut the timely horde mate(rebuying small creatures matter to little at the point the midrange decks are casting their big dudes, the molting snake skin and the debilitating injury(though i guess this is the best of the 3, its just much inferior to bile blight). And lastly throttle which is just way inefficient the 4th seeker is indeed pretty good, more low curve creatures that caryatid can not risk to block is great, and it can do serious work vs aggro. you will need some aditional ways(as well as ways to turn on seeker) to attack into caryatid and courser so i would add some amount of bile blight and boon of erebos), gnarl scarhide is also a great option for this as it doubles as another 1 drop while also being able to use the bestow mode to get through blockers. and some aditional ways to deal with the first bomb they will drop(you cant really kill em before turn 4 so you will need to be able to deal with some of the threats, suspension field and murderous cuts are the best cheap options(suspension field misses some more aggressive decks, but is really efficient vs the sea of midrange decks that is current standard, but i would make sure to play atleast the first 2 murderous cut). if you are willing to spend slightly more you could add some herald of torments, increasing your ability to push through boardstalls | ||
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las91
United States5080 Posts
On September 30 2014 22:34 annedeman wrote: + Show Spoiler + i would definatly play the mana confluence, you want to be able to cast your spells on time and play your one drops on turn one, a few more swamp and a few less plains for the same reason. hero and champion need to be 4 off's, you get outclassed massively in the midgame by the midrange decks so the most important thing is going under, chief of the edge is great in that it allows your one drop aggresive warrior to get passed caryatid, a major road block for most 1 drop creatures, so chief, bloodsoaked champion and the last tormented hero are indeed first priority. i would cut the timely horde mate(rebuying small creatures matter to little at the point the midrange decks are casting their big dudes, the molting snake skin and the debilitating injury(though i guess this is the best of the 3, its just much inferior to bile blight). And lastly throttle which is just way inefficient the 4th seeker is indeed pretty good, more low curve creatures that caryatid can not risk to block is great, and it can do serious work vs aggro. you will need some aditional ways(as well as ways to turn on seeker) to attack into caryatid and courser so i would add some amount of bile blight and boon of erebos), gnarl scarhide is also a great option for this as it doubles as another 1 drop while also being able to use the bestow mode to get through blockers. and some aditional ways to deal with the first bomb they will drop(you cant really kill em before turn 4 so you will need to be able to deal with some of the threats, suspension field and murderous cuts are the best cheap options(suspension field misses some more aggressive decks, but is really efficient vs the sea of midrange decks that is current standard, but i would make sure to play atleast the first 2 murderous cut). if you are willing to spend slightly more you could add some herald of torments, increasing your ability to push through boardstalls I have two Heralds atm so I can put those in pretty easily. I do have a boon of erebos and a couple bile blights I believe. I wasn't sure about the Timely Hordemate because of the whole "do I need a 4 drop or am I dead already by that point". I'll make sure to look for more Suspension fields and MC as I only have 1 of each atm. I'd just like to thank everyone I really appreciate the help ^_^ so many choices and not enough knowledge of the sets in Standard ~.~ Current Decklist with these considerations: + Show Spoiler + B/W Warriors Creatures (21) 4x Bloodsoaked Champion 4x Tormented Hero 4x Chief of the Edge 4x Seeker of the Way 3x Mardu Hordechief 2x Herald of Torment Instants (12) 4x Defiant Strike 2x Boon of Erebos 2x Bile Blight 2x Feat of Resistance 2x Murderous Cut Sorcery (2) 2x Covenant of Blood Enchantment (3) 2x Banishing Light 1x Suspension Field Artifact (1) 1x Spear of Heliod Lands (21) 2x Caves of Koilos 1x Mana Confluence 4x Scoured Barrens 5x Plains 9x Swamp | ||
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