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On September 15 2011 13:41 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 13:11 Cel.erity wrote:
The good thing about M12 draft in comparison to the previous core sets is the introduction of synergy. Pick orders are not nearly as clear as M11, where you basically just took the best card every single time. Pick orders now vary drastically depending on curve, color commitment, amount of tricks, etc. There are decks that don't want Pentavus, there are decks that first pick Hunter's Insight, there are decks where Blood Ogre > Gorehorn Minotaurs, everything is quite flexible. It's a good "introduction" to the idea that you have to evaluate cards on a deck-by-deck basis, so in that way I think it's one of the most successful limited formats. Oh man, what deck couldn't use a Pentavus! It's sooo sweet in Limited. I'm sure there's some example but I can't think of it.
I had a mono red splash black deck with 9 one drops(lavamancer, 3 arsonists, 3 fireslingers, 2 tormented souls) and a decent/balanced curve of dudes that ended its curve in 1 gorehorn minotaur and 3 chandra's outrages. ran 16 lands. blitzed the shit out of everything, but the deck was weak to a deck that is slightly slower(ie still fast but with slightly bigger guys)
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On September 15 2011 13:47 Orpheos wrote:
I had a mono red splash black deck with 9 one drops(lavamancer, 3 arsonists, 3 fireslingers, 2 tormented souls) and a decent/balanced curve of dudes that ended its curve in 1 gorehorn minotaur and 3 chandra's outrages. ran 16 lands. blitzed the shit out of everything, but the deck was weak to a deck that is slightly slower(ie still fast but with slightly bigger guys)
I get what you're going for: GET THERE!!!!
But Man. I'd still play Pentavus.
On September 15 2011 13:47 DCLXVI wrote:
A deck that would first pick hunters insight??? I really don't think it has a place in any deck, as any green deck would rather lay down another creature to beat with rather than rely on a "combat trick" to draw cards. Anyways, HI almost always wheels in my pods so i could never see first picking it.
I wouldn't FIRST pick it, but it really shouldn't be wheeling in an experienced 8-man pod.
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On September 15 2011 13:47 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 13:11 Cel.erity wrote:
The good thing about M12 draft in comparison to the previous core sets is the introduction of synergy. Pick orders are not nearly as clear as M11, where you basically just took the best card every single time. Pick orders now vary drastically depending on curve, color commitment, amount of tricks, etc. There are decks that don't want Pentavus, there are decks that first pick Hunter's Insight, there are decks where Blood Ogre > Gorehorn Minotaurs, everything is quite flexible. It's a good "introduction" to the idea that you have to evaluate cards on a deck-by-deck basis, so in that way I think it's one of the most successful limited formats. A deck that would first pick hunters insight??? I really don't think it has a place in any deck, as any green deck would rather lay down another creature to beat with rather than rely on a "combat trick" to draw cards. Anyways, HI almost always wheels in my pods so i could never see first picking it.
HI is such a good card :/
Think of it this way, that combat trick just drew you probably minimum 2 cards, more often 3 or 4. That's so much more useful than 1 body
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On September 15 2011 14:10 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 13:47 DCLXVI wrote:On September 15 2011 13:11 Cel.erity wrote:
The good thing about M12 draft in comparison to the previous core sets is the introduction of synergy. Pick orders are not nearly as clear as M11, where you basically just took the best card every single time. Pick orders now vary drastically depending on curve, color commitment, amount of tricks, etc. There are decks that don't want Pentavus, there are decks that first pick Hunter's Insight, there are decks where Blood Ogre > Gorehorn Minotaurs, everything is quite flexible. It's a good "introduction" to the idea that you have to evaluate cards on a deck-by-deck basis, so in that way I think it's one of the most successful limited formats. A deck that would first pick hunters insight??? I really don't think it has a place in any deck, as any green deck would rather lay down another creature to beat with rather than rely on a "combat trick" to draw cards. Anyways, HI almost always wheels in my pods so i could never see first picking it. HI is such a good card :/ Think of it this way, that combat trick just drew you probably minimum 2 cards, more often 3 or 4. That's so much more useful than 1 body
its definitely a very good card. first pickable but I wont be happy about it. and definitely not pack 1.
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On September 15 2011 14:13 Orpheos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 14:10 Risen wrote:On September 15 2011 13:47 DCLXVI wrote:On September 15 2011 13:11 Cel.erity wrote:
The good thing about M12 draft in comparison to the previous core sets is the introduction of synergy. Pick orders are not nearly as clear as M11, where you basically just took the best card every single time. Pick orders now vary drastically depending on curve, color commitment, amount of tricks, etc. There are decks that don't want Pentavus, there are decks that first pick Hunter's Insight, there are decks where Blood Ogre > Gorehorn Minotaurs, everything is quite flexible. It's a good "introduction" to the idea that you have to evaluate cards on a deck-by-deck basis, so in that way I think it's one of the most successful limited formats. A deck that would first pick hunters insight??? I really don't think it has a place in any deck, as any green deck would rather lay down another creature to beat with rather than rely on a "combat trick" to draw cards. Anyways, HI almost always wheels in my pods so i could never see first picking it. HI is such a good card :/ Think of it this way, that combat trick just drew you probably minimum 2 cards, more often 3 or 4. That's so much more useful than 1 body its definitely a very good card. first pickable but I wont be happy about it. and definitely not pack 1.
I seriously doubt Cel was saying p1p1, but p1p3 or depending on your draws p1p2 is viable for sure.
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On September 15 2011 14:10 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 13:47 DCLXVI wrote:On September 15 2011 13:11 Cel.erity wrote:
The good thing about M12 draft in comparison to the previous core sets is the introduction of synergy. Pick orders are not nearly as clear as M11, where you basically just took the best card every single time. Pick orders now vary drastically depending on curve, color commitment, amount of tricks, etc. There are decks that don't want Pentavus, there are decks that first pick Hunter's Insight, there are decks where Blood Ogre > Gorehorn Minotaurs, everything is quite flexible. It's a good "introduction" to the idea that you have to evaluate cards on a deck-by-deck basis, so in that way I think it's one of the most successful limited formats. A deck that would first pick hunters insight??? I really don't think it has a place in any deck, as any green deck would rather lay down another creature to beat with rather than rely on a "combat trick" to draw cards. Anyways, HI almost always wheels in my pods so i could never see first picking it. HI is such a good card :/ Think of it this way, that combat trick just drew you probably minimum 2 cards, more often 3 or 4. That's so much more useful than 1 body
There are two problems with that. First, you're spending a card, so if you're drawing two cards, playing something like Divination is less risky. Secondly, if you're getting in there for 4 or 5 damage on a single creature(where Hunter's Insight is at its best,) that's pretty late game and you're getting through for that kind of damage? So it was a bluff or you already had board advantage.
It's a great card, still. I just don't think it's better than very good creatures in the format.
EDIT: Ooooh, draft hypothetical. Pack 1, Pick say...4. Giant Spider or Hunter's Insight?
Let's say your picks went: Garruk, Acidid Slime and Garruk's Companion. So basically, you're going Green.
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On September 15 2011 14:23 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 14:10 Risen wrote:On September 15 2011 13:47 DCLXVI wrote:On September 15 2011 13:11 Cel.erity wrote:
The good thing about M12 draft in comparison to the previous core sets is the introduction of synergy. Pick orders are not nearly as clear as M11, where you basically just took the best card every single time. Pick orders now vary drastically depending on curve, color commitment, amount of tricks, etc. There are decks that don't want Pentavus, there are decks that first pick Hunter's Insight, there are decks where Blood Ogre > Gorehorn Minotaurs, everything is quite flexible. It's a good "introduction" to the idea that you have to evaluate cards on a deck-by-deck basis, so in that way I think it's one of the most successful limited formats. A deck that would first pick hunters insight??? I really don't think it has a place in any deck, as any green deck would rather lay down another creature to beat with rather than rely on a "combat trick" to draw cards. Anyways, HI almost always wheels in my pods so i could never see first picking it. HI is such a good card :/ Think of it this way, that combat trick just drew you probably minimum 2 cards, more often 3 or 4. That's so much more useful than 1 body There are two problems with that. First, you're spending a card, so if you're drawing two cards, playing something like Divination is less risky. Secondly, if you're getting in there for 4 or 5 damage on a single creature(where Hunter's Insight is at its best,) that's pretty late game and you're getting through for that kind of damage? So it was a bluff or you already had board advantage. It's a great card, still. I just don't think it's better than very good creatures in the format.
Orrrrrr, maybe you just landed a frost breath, or you have a gideon's lawkeeper, or any number of things that lets you get just one creature by. Guess what's a really viable card with HI... crumbling colossus. A turn 5 or 6 HI on crumbling colossus is not late game in a draft afaik. Once that colossus is gone you lose his massive presence, which means that card draw is super valuable. You're definitely undervaluing card draw imo. Divination safer? Maybe, but HI has potential to be vastly superior to divination because it isn't static.
Edit: Garruk gives you all the card draw you need, which might devalue HI, unless you like drawing cards to get TO your garruk. Always helpful, but spider yes. Note that he said SOME decks would pick up HI
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On September 15 2011 14:23 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 14:10 Risen wrote:On September 15 2011 13:47 DCLXVI wrote:On September 15 2011 13:11 Cel.erity wrote:
The good thing about M12 draft in comparison to the previous core sets is the introduction of synergy. Pick orders are not nearly as clear as M11, where you basically just took the best card every single time. Pick orders now vary drastically depending on curve, color commitment, amount of tricks, etc. There are decks that don't want Pentavus, there are decks that first pick Hunter's Insight, there are decks where Blood Ogre > Gorehorn Minotaurs, everything is quite flexible. It's a good "introduction" to the idea that you have to evaluate cards on a deck-by-deck basis, so in that way I think it's one of the most successful limited formats. A deck that would first pick hunters insight??? I really don't think it has a place in any deck, as any green deck would rather lay down another creature to beat with rather than rely on a "combat trick" to draw cards. Anyways, HI almost always wheels in my pods so i could never see first picking it. HI is such a good card :/ Think of it this way, that combat trick just drew you probably minimum 2 cards, more often 3 or 4. That's so much more useful than 1 body There are two problems with that. First, you're spending a card, so if you're drawing two cards, playing something like Divination is less risky. Secondly, if you're getting in there for 4 or 5 damage on a single creature(where Hunter's Insight is at its best,) that's pretty late game and you're getting through for that kind of damage? So it was a bluff or you already had board advantage. It's a great card, still. I just don't think it's better than very good creatures in the format. EDIT: Ooooh, draft hypothetical. Pack 1, Pick say...4. Giant Spider or Hunter's Insight? Let's say your picks went: Garruk, Acidid Slime and Garruk's Companion. So basically, you're going Green.
With Garruk I take Spider every time, that's a pretty extreme case though. Of course Spider into Garruk is absurd whereas Hunter's Insight doesn't protect him at all.
The decks that best utilize the card are G/U and G/W because you have a lot of 3-power evasive creatures and stuff like Frost Breath/Sacred Wolf/Benalish Veteran/Stave Off. It basically gets better the better your deck is, while Divination usually gets worse, unless you're running some kind of insane control deck.
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Yeah, that works fine. I mean, reliance on other cards to make it happen is fine, I'm not saying Hunter's Insight isn't great. Yeah, it's dynamic and generates card advantage. I'd just pick a good creature before it.
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On September 15 2011 14:48 slyboogie wrote:
Yeah, that works fine. I mean, reliance on other cards to make it happen is fine, I'm not saying Hunter's Insight isn't great. Yeah, it's dynamic and generates card advantage. I'd just pick a good creature before it.
Problem is, green is full of good creatures. A lot of green decks you draft are going to have 19 good creatures and basically no spells. That's why Hunter's Insight is so important to the color, because it needs to refill with threats or gain some sort of card advantage (virtual or otherwise) to be relevant.
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Hunter's Insight is one of those things I try to grab as late as possible. Does it work in the decks you "need" it in, yes. But I'm not about to take one pre pick 8 or 9 unless I know the rest of the table is heavy green, in which case what the hell am I doing in green?
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This may be a lack of experience in Green but I don't know. I certainly like both spiders/Cudgel Troll and Slime more than Insight in a vacuum. Hunter's Insight is just so conditional. I'm all for card advantage but if you're using a Frost Breath to get it? Getting it at the cost of your Colossus? It's another card! I guess when my opponent's Chasm Drake carries his Carnage Wurm over, it's a clean sweep but it's still too conditional.
I should again, probably say that I like Hunter's Insight. I probably just don't rate it higher than some others.
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I consider HI to be a fringe playable 20-23 card since green does not really need the card advantage it provides. You will not be trading cards 1 for 1 since many of your creatures are better. It is necessary to keep up the pressure against the aggressive decks by laying down threats, else they kill you first. You cannot win by playing some spiders and waiting for some fatties to win the game, there are too many spells that get past creatures, and quite a lot of removal available. With the number of instant speed spells that stop HI (red/black removal, stave off, frost breath...), i find it to be way to risky to rely on. I am not saying it is unplayable, however i would not first pick it even pack 3 as i value most other green cards above it, not to mention your second color.
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make some magic playing friends deth2munkies, im sure they'd be happy to give you playsets of the commons/uncommons you don't own (that arent moneymoney).
Then you'll be able to play into the roil (a card which is strictly better in every concievable aspect) over dispere.
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You guys will be happy to know I p2p1'ed a Hunter's Insight on stream tonight, although the pack was abysmal. There was no splashable removal and the best creature in my colors was Lurking Crocodile so....
3-0'd the draft obv.
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On September 15 2011 19:44 Cel.erity wrote:
You guys will be happy to know I p2p1'ed a Hunter's Insight on stream tonight, although the pack was abysmal. There was no splashable removal and the best creature in my colors was Lurking Crocodile so....
3-0'd the draft obv.
You managed to draft well and NOT get manascrewed/flooded? SHOCKER!
j/k.
But I'm in agreement on this one. Hunter's Insight is better in P2 or P3 than another big green fatty if you already have a few of them and even better when you have ways to get through. It's best on T5-T7 when you've just about empited your hand onto the table and need to restock. Drawing 3+ cards is absolutely backbreaking if you're already ahead on board.
Also to the "make friends", I started playing in NPH and I've been drafting at the same shop for about a month. Nobody is buying Scars/Zen stuff anymore, it's all M12 waiting for Innistrad, and I don't have much of any of the 3, so most people will give me free M12 stuff (I got 2 dragons from a guy I drafted with), I'm not able to get Zen stuff like into the roil because I don't have a playset of something like Azure Mage or another constructed playable card to trade for and I can't reciprocate by giving them free stuff I don't have...yet. Eventually once I build a collection everything should work out a bit better, but I'm still really new at this.
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Come Back to 3rd coast! I need more people there to listen to me yell for no reason when they call me wrong.
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On September 15 2011 22:51 Cixah wrote:
Come Back to 3rd coast! I need more people there to listen to me yell for no reason when they call me wrong.
I was out of town last weekend. If my cards get here by Friday I'll be in for FNM, if not, I'll be there on Saturday for the draft 
I like it a lot better than Asgard, Heroes, and Bo's which are the only other 3 within 30 minutes of me.
I will also bring my mouse so we can run 2's in league once I lose 
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I hate reading this thread at work sometimes. Makes me want to log on and do a draft! TNM tonight on Online, though I don't think it is the draft version this week. I have been cutting back on drafting lately though, saving my tickets for Innistrad drafts.
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EPT
