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On September 09 2011 22:34 Orpheos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. you should pretty much never hate draft unless there is nothing in the pack for you(or very marginal playables and its something super fucking dumb) not only are you not necessarily going to play against the card, it also can sometimes send bad signals. then again in his draft it turned out fine bacuse apparently no one else wanted to play white and wheeled him a tapper. also aside from his first pick in pack 2, it was a pretty decent pack for him. all those are very playable cards and gives him a nice consistent power level. i mean sure you wanted a pacifism first pick but savannah lions isnt bad in this aggro format and everything else he got was legit mid/high picks but lets not kid ourselves here that draft was just all about derp pulled a gideon. thats one of the most backbreaking cards ever in limited.
Seriously. He won me every game I played him, and if I hadn't derped so hard in my last game I'd have won the entire thing JUST BECAUSE he landed on the field. I don't think his abilities are so much broken as his starting loyalty of 6 followed immediately by a +2 so 8. You have to do 8 damage or O ring him. Otherwise that's a 6/6 can't be touched guy swinging at you for free next turn. (in my defense the guy had it equipped so just the edge of the greatsword was sticking out from under the rusted sentinel, but still. Derp, situational awareness)
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On September 10 2011 00:34 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. Pack was empty except for Gideon's Lawkeeper. Hadn't seen anything signaling people playing white so I took the chance that it would wheel. Dreams come true and it wheeled 
Lawkeeper is very good and I would never hate draft over it. You got very lucky but that doesn't make what you did right. Certainly wouldn't make that a habit or it will cost you.
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On September 10 2011 00:37 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 22:34 Orpheos wrote:On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. you should pretty much never hate draft unless there is nothing in the pack for you(or very marginal playables and its something super fucking dumb) not only are you not necessarily going to play against the card, it also can sometimes send bad signals. then again in his draft it turned out fine bacuse apparently no one else wanted to play white and wheeled him a tapper. also aside from his first pick in pack 2, it was a pretty decent pack for him. all those are very playable cards and gives him a nice consistent power level. i mean sure you wanted a pacifism first pick but savannah lions isnt bad in this aggro format and everything else he got was legit mid/high picks but lets not kid ourselves here that draft was just all about derp pulled a gideon. thats one of the most backbreaking cards ever in limited. Seriously. He won me every game I played him, and if I hadn't derped so hard in my last game I'd have won the entire thing JUST BECAUSE he landed on the field. I don't think his abilities are so much broken as his starting loyalty of 6 followed immediately by a +2 so 8. You have to do 8 damage or O ring him. Otherwise that's a 6/6 can't be touched guy swinging at you for free next turn. (in my defense the guy had it equipped so just the edge of the greatsword was sticking out from under the rusted sentinel, but still. Derp, situational awareness)
his +2 is super devastating as long as you have anything resembling playables in your deck. it makes all your creatures unblockable and sometimes acts as removal and also acts as an abyss for any creatures that arent bigger than yours. its like a mini overrun+removal+fog that happens every turn.
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On September 10 2011 01:07 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 00:34 Risen wrote:On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. Pack was empty except for Gideon's Lawkeeper. Hadn't seen anything signaling people playing white so I took the chance that it would wheel. Dreams come true and it wheeled Lawkeeper is very good and I would never hate draft over it. You got very lucky but that doesn't make what you did right. Certainly wouldn't make that a habit or it will cost you.
Meh, I still take the pharaoh. As far as I could tell the guy on my left was getting every black card at the table and the last thing I wanted was someone to get an autowin card like that in their opening hand. (the guy two seats to my left was drafting black but point still stands)
Only one other person at the table was drafting white as it turns out, and every other white card I had wanted wheeled previously. I'd make the same decision.
Edit: Next week I'm completely trying to draft black if it's at all possible. I saw a couple onyx mages go by twice and my jaw was just dropping. People undervalue that card SO much.
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On September 10 2011 01:07 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 00:34 Risen wrote:On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. Pack was empty except for Gideon's Lawkeeper. Hadn't seen anything signaling people playing white so I took the chance that it would wheel. Dreams come true and it wheeled Lawkeeper is very good and I would never hate draft over it. You got very lucky but that doesn't make what you did right. Certainly wouldn't make that a habit or it will cost you.
Lawkeeper is overrated. He's only really good in draw go decks with a bunch of counters, high toughness creatures, and bombs, or if your opponent can only put 1 threat on the table (in which case you'd probably be better off racing him with a bunch of small guys rather than tapping each turn). Otherwise, he's a 1/1 for 1 that sets back your curve every single turn and will often prevent you from playing double white spells for your first 4-5 turns.
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On September 10 2011 01:29 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:07 DEN1ED wrote:On September 10 2011 00:34 Risen wrote:On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. Pack was empty except for Gideon's Lawkeeper. Hadn't seen anything signaling people playing white so I took the chance that it would wheel. Dreams come true and it wheeled Lawkeeper is very good and I would never hate draft over it. You got very lucky but that doesn't make what you did right. Certainly wouldn't make that a habit or it will cost you. Lawkeeper is overrated. He's only really good in draw go decks with a bunch of counters, high toughness creatures, and bombs, or if your opponent can only put 1 threat on the table (in which case you'd probably be better off racing him with a bunch of small guys rather than tapping each turn). Otherwise, he's a 1/1 for 1 that sets back your curve every single turn and will often prevent you from playing double white spells for your first 4-5 turns.
...Lawkeeper is not overrated at all. It's the best White common, even over Pacifism. It comes down turn one and is very good in both defensive and aggressive strategies, and allows you to switch from defending to attacking at a moment's notice. It's insane at both enabling bloodthirst and turning off opponents' bloodthirst creatures. I'm never unhappy to take a Lawkeeper as my first overall pick of a draft.
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On September 10 2011 01:29 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:07 DEN1ED wrote:On September 10 2011 00:34 Risen wrote:On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. Pack was empty except for Gideon's Lawkeeper. Hadn't seen anything signaling people playing white so I took the chance that it would wheel. Dreams come true and it wheeled Lawkeeper is very good and I would never hate draft over it. You got very lucky but that doesn't make what you did right. Certainly wouldn't make that a habit or it will cost you. Lawkeeper is overrated. He's only really good in draw go decks with a bunch of counters, high toughness creatures, and bombs, or if your opponent can only put 1 threat on the table (in which case you'd probably be better off racing him with a bunch of small guys rather than tapping each turn). Otherwise, he's a 1/1 for 1 that sets back your curve every single turn and will often prevent you from playing double white spells for your first 4-5 turns.
Going to have to be a difference of opinion. I rate him VERY high in my draft, especially considering Gideon's -2 ability. On his own lawkeeper is still really high. I'm second guessing myself on the decision now ONLY b/c I already had a Gideon. Otherwise my pick still stands and I don't want to face a pharaoh as much as I want to play a lawkeeper. With the Gideon draw though, I think I rate lawkeeper higher, and it was a mispick from me.
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If I hate draft it is usually picks 8-15 if that card is still there. Overrun on pick 9? Screw losing to that!
I like to mix things up, if I open a first pack with Call of The Grave and I feel like just playing this draft for fun, I will try to go B/UorR and only have zombie monsters. I try to get blue to control the board or mill (lol @ mill decks in limited). If I choose red I use it for the burn spells or lightning elementals. I think Call of The Grave and a style mill deck work well in limited, he has to play very carefully when Call of The Grave is out and with the added clock of being milled by Jace's Erasure's makes them mess up a lot. I only do that for a change of pace.
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yea gideon's lawkeeper is extremely devastating removal. I would say he is just as good if not better in aggressive decks becasue you dont have to hold him for a big target, you can just run him out there. also he always threatens to tap down a guy at their EOT and then tap another guy so it makes combat really brutal.
then there are phantasms which that guy really shouldve sided out against you.
and he turns on early bloodthirsters against a slower deck.
he is one of the biggest reasons to be white.
*edit
kraltic you should try to live the dream of mind unbound, jace's erasure and elixir of immortality. that shit is silly(and probably aweful =P)
on that note, i have done very well with blue/x control decks and just pick up all those extra mesmerists. it gives a pretty fast clock if you have 2 on board. and he is a very nice blocker vs bloodthirst decks early game. and of course you get to mill ppl out
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On September 10 2011 01:38 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:29 deth2munkies wrote:On September 10 2011 01:07 DEN1ED wrote:On September 10 2011 00:34 Risen wrote:On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. Pack was empty except for Gideon's Lawkeeper. Hadn't seen anything signaling people playing white so I took the chance that it would wheel. Dreams come true and it wheeled Lawkeeper is very good and I would never hate draft over it. You got very lucky but that doesn't make what you did right. Certainly wouldn't make that a habit or it will cost you. Lawkeeper is overrated. He's only really good in draw go decks with a bunch of counters, high toughness creatures, and bombs, or if your opponent can only put 1 threat on the table (in which case you'd probably be better off racing him with a bunch of small guys rather than tapping each turn). Otherwise, he's a 1/1 for 1 that sets back your curve every single turn and will often prevent you from playing double white spells for your first 4-5 turns. Going to have to be a difference of opinion. I rate him VERY high in my draft, especially considering Gideon's -2 ability. On his own lawkeeper is still really high. I'm second guessing myself on the decision now ONLY b/c I already had a Gideon. Otherwise my pick still stands and I don't want to face a pharaoh as much as I want to play a lawkeeper. With the Gideon draw though, I think I rate lawkeeper higher, and it was a mispick from me.
Well yeah, with the other Gideons (Jura and Avenger) he's a higher pick. But I still wouldn't ever take him first pick over anything decent (Pacifism included) nor would seeing him 4th or 5th pick send me into white.
I'm not saying he's bad. He's a solid common in the vein of Giant Spider, Gravedigger, and the rest of the "solid but unremarkable" category.
Maybe it's just me, since my white decks tend to be aggressively focused and thus holding the mana open just delays me from dropping my Pegasus/Drake/whatever and whenever I face him he gets Wring Fleshed, Shocked, Ice Caged, etc on turn 2.
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This is a FAST format. Having a card that comes down on turn 1 and remains highly relevant for the entire game is a huge, huge advantage. Spider and Gravedigger don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Lawkeeper.
Sure, he can be removed, but so can any creature. He just has a much higher percentage of dominating a game than most cards in the set, and is definitely first-pickable.
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Depends on the pack, namely which first or second. He's better than Gravedigger, but I would say he's on par with Spider namely because Spider's role in this Limited format is very powerful.
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hes probably better than spider on the grounds that white is abit better than green but that might also be my opinion/playstyle. green can def be good but you really need to pick up the right ratio of cards(all the llanowar elves >_<) rather than just taking a bunch of playables like you can in say white or red.
also gravedigger has not been as good for me in this format. i feel like most of the black decks hes just buying back the little durdles you are playing. not to say he isnt a great card.
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On September 10 2011 01:38 Jaksiel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:29 deth2munkies wrote:On September 10 2011 01:07 DEN1ED wrote:On September 10 2011 00:34 Risen wrote:On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. Pack was empty except for Gideon's Lawkeeper. Hadn't seen anything signaling people playing white so I took the chance that it would wheel. Dreams come true and it wheeled Lawkeeper is very good and I would never hate draft over it. You got very lucky but that doesn't make what you did right. Certainly wouldn't make that a habit or it will cost you. Lawkeeper is overrated. He's only really good in draw go decks with a bunch of counters, high toughness creatures, and bombs, or if your opponent can only put 1 threat on the table (in which case you'd probably be better off racing him with a bunch of small guys rather than tapping each turn). Otherwise, he's a 1/1 for 1 that sets back your curve every single turn and will often prevent you from playing double white spells for your first 4-5 turns. ...Lawkeeper is not overrated at all. It's the best White common, even over Pacifism. It comes down turn one and is very good in both defensive and aggressive strategies, and allows you to switch from defending to attacking at a moment's notice. It's insane at both enabling bloodthirst and turning off opponents' bloodthirst creatures. I'm never unhappy to take a Lawkeeper as my first overall pick of a draft.
Agree that Lawkeeper is not overrated, but most pros no longer value him above Pacifism. Blinding Mage was better in M11, but this format has infinitely more ways to shut him down. Red has 4 at common alone, black has 3, blue has 2(ish), and even green has 1.
As for the "He can be removed but so can any other creature" argument...well...Pacifism is not a creature. Less versatility than Lawkeeper yes, but less strain on your curve and it does the job right away, and is almost impossible to get rid of.
It's not a landslide or anything, but Pacifism is definitely a little bit better than Lawkeeper.
Edit: Oh and yeah, attempting to wheel Lawkeeper was probably not a smart decision.
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meh if you are the one curving out/contributing to the board is it that bad to just not use him for a turn?
he does die easier in this format.
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On September 10 2011 02:23 Orpheos wrote:
meh if you are the one curving out/contributing to the board is it that bad to just not use him for a turn?
he does die easier in this format.
Sometimes, yes, it's incredibly bad. White 4-5 drops are smaller than any other color's, so curving out is not as meaningful. If you're in a situation where you're racing, it comes up incredibly often that you have to choose whether to develop your board or leave Lawkeeper open and hope they don't have a Wring Flesh at eot (which happens a lot). Like I said, not a bad card, but certainly you should not be taking it over Pacifism UNLESS your deck is incredibly aggressive, because then the ability to double-tap is very strong, and you don't care much about curving.
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I guess whenever I draft White, it turns out to be really crucial to drop a creature on turn 1 and keep dropping creatures for the next few turns, and I'd usually rather take one mana off my curve if needed than have to set 2 aside for a Pacifism.
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On September 10 2011 02:20 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:38 Jaksiel wrote:On September 10 2011 01:29 deth2munkies wrote:On September 10 2011 01:07 DEN1ED wrote:On September 10 2011 00:34 Risen wrote:On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. Pack was empty except for Gideon's Lawkeeper. Hadn't seen anything signaling people playing white so I took the chance that it would wheel. Dreams come true and it wheeled Lawkeeper is very good and I would never hate draft over it. You got very lucky but that doesn't make what you did right. Certainly wouldn't make that a habit or it will cost you. Lawkeeper is overrated. He's only really good in draw go decks with a bunch of counters, high toughness creatures, and bombs, or if your opponent can only put 1 threat on the table (in which case you'd probably be better off racing him with a bunch of small guys rather than tapping each turn). Otherwise, he's a 1/1 for 1 that sets back your curve every single turn and will often prevent you from playing double white spells for your first 4-5 turns. ...Lawkeeper is not overrated at all. It's the best White common, even over Pacifism. It comes down turn one and is very good in both defensive and aggressive strategies, and allows you to switch from defending to attacking at a moment's notice. It's insane at both enabling bloodthirst and turning off opponents' bloodthirst creatures. I'm never unhappy to take a Lawkeeper as my first overall pick of a draft. Agree that Lawkeeper is not overrated, but most pros no longer value him above Pacifism. Blinding Mage was better in M11, but this format has infinitely more ways to shut him down. Red has 4 at common alone, black has 3, blue has 2(ish), and even green has 1. As for the "He can be removed but so can any other creature" argument...well...Pacifism is not a creature. Less versatility than Lawkeeper yes, but less strain on your curve and it does the job right away, and is almost impossible to get rid of. It's not a landslide or anything, but Pacifism is definitely a little bit better than Lawkeeper. Edit: Oh and yeah, attempting to wheel Lawkeeper was probably not a smart decision.
What you're saying makes sense. In some sense, it's not unlike looking at Grim Lavamancer and Incinerate in a pack and taking 1 or 2 extra looks. Obviously, Lavamancer is much stronger than Lawkeeper but the point's there. Saying that creatures die to removal is stupid, but saying that specific creatures die to specific removals is valid, in this case, Wring Flesh. I know that this example has the power levels all out of whack but basically, I can see why a drafter would take a Pacifism over a Lawkeeper, though, I don't think I would, personally.
My other thought was Royal Assassin over Doomblade (too much of a blowout, imo.) And Ice Cage sucks so my Looter/Azure Mage example wasn't going to really fly there.
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On September 10 2011 01:38 Jaksiel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:29 deth2munkies wrote:On September 10 2011 01:07 DEN1ED wrote:On September 10 2011 00:34 Risen wrote:On September 09 2011 15:10 slyboogie wrote:
@Risen
I almost never hate draft, especially first pick of a pack. I guess Vengeful Pharaoh is scary but was there nothing else to help you? I guess in a 6-man pod, things come around fast. Also your pack two cycle was shockingly bad! Just an ugly set of packs, I guess. Jade Mage at 6 is sweet though. Pack was empty except for Gideon's Lawkeeper. Hadn't seen anything signaling people playing white so I took the chance that it would wheel. Dreams come true and it wheeled Lawkeeper is very good and I would never hate draft over it. You got very lucky but that doesn't make what you did right. Certainly wouldn't make that a habit or it will cost you. Lawkeeper is overrated. He's only really good in draw go decks with a bunch of counters, high toughness creatures, and bombs, or if your opponent can only put 1 threat on the table (in which case you'd probably be better off racing him with a bunch of small guys rather than tapping each turn). Otherwise, he's a 1/1 for 1 that sets back your curve every single turn and will often prevent you from playing double white spells for your first 4-5 turns. ...Lawkeeper is not overrated at all. It's the best White common, even over Pacifism. It comes down turn one and is very good in both defensive and aggressive strategies, and allows you to switch from defending to attacking at a moment's notice. It's insane at both enabling bloodthirst and turning off opponents' bloodthirst creatures. I'm never unhappy to take a Lawkeeper as my first overall pick of a draft.
Ya this pretty much sums it up. I'd say maybe even with pacifism but saying he is overrated and only good in draw go is just wrong. Tapping down their best blocker to be able to attack is huge. His versatility is just amazing.
Just saw this too
http://mtgbrewhouse.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/planeswalker-points-the-problems-in-the-multiplier/
seems like the right idea to fix PWP
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What to do on a friday night when I'm back in vegas for the weekend? Draft, of course. I'll keep everyone updated. Odds of another gideon pretty low though lol
Edit: modo gos have extended their reach to the real world. My pod got jack shit  got a bye first round though. Good thing, too, because this deck is SHITTY
Double edit: shit deck loses g1 and takes the last two on the back of merfolk looter, winner of the second most underrated card in 12 drafts.
Edit 2: LOL. Shit deck wins match 3 2-0 rofl. When I post this deck you guys are gonna get a kick.
Edit 3: all good things must come to an end. Lost round 4 2-0. Didn't even know these things went past three rounds lol.
Edit 4: I'm too fuckin tired to write up a BR. Draft lasted until 12:20am and I just got home it's 2:10am. Will say that through some MTG shenans I came in third and was awarded 5 packs as my prize (1st got 8, 2nd got 6)
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EPT
