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On September 24 2013 08:30 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:On September 24 2013 07:49 Judicator wrote:
I don't ever want Heliod to be a creature, I have no intention of it being a creature. As for closing out a game, Assemble is worse by a large margin in a defensive deck since I only get creatures on upkeep as opposed to dodging all the sorcery speed removal. Turn 4 vs Turn 5 tapping out is a big difference. Heliod is more resistant to enchantment removal than Assemble, and gives me a chance to resolve a Jace the following turn in the relevant match ups. Heliod also has better synergy with Mutavaults making it cost 1 less mana to attack with.
There's nothing wrong with Heliod being slow, if they have to jump through hoops to deal with it, it just makes my Aetherling lines that much better. If they don't, then Aetherling becomes a much faster clock when they do deal with the Heliod.
So again, there's very little justification in playing Red in UW shell, your aggro match ups get marginally better but your control match ups get worse, along with your consistency. Plus you open yourself up to Burning Earth more.
Now are there problem cards for UW? Sure, but those I can live with. Dodging sorcery speed removal? You get 1 attack with up to 3 (maximum...ever...) 2/1s in exchange for tapping out on EoT and giving an opponent a chance to Sphinx's, then still losing them all anyway the same you would with assemble, except that so long as you keep Assemble alive, it eventually becomes impossible to deal with short of Illness in the Ranks. Please stop, if you are going to use the example of tapping out into opposing Sphinx's as a counter-example, this discussion is pointless. Like I said before, that line of keeping Assemble alive is pointless one, I can use the same logic if I tap out with Aetherling and it survives I win. Let's put it this way, Heliod wins the game more consistently than Assemble. Assemble wins the game quicker, but at the cost of trading 5 mana for 3 or less. In the game of inevitability, would I rather have the card that is far more difficult to remove OR have the card that is far easier to remove? I am not sure why you are in some rush to win the game in the control shell; at 5 mana, I would rather play a Stormbreath Dragon than an Assemble to make them Verdict. Edit: That's not even considering how badly you have you warp your mana base to run Assemble, opportunity cost is a thing.
If time isn't an issue... thoughts on Colossus of Akros being your finisher? Is it too expensive?
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On September 24 2013 08:38 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 08:30 Judicator wrote:On September 24 2013 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:On September 24 2013 07:49 Judicator wrote:
I don't ever want Heliod to be a creature, I have no intention of it being a creature. As for closing out a game, Assemble is worse by a large margin in a defensive deck since I only get creatures on upkeep as opposed to dodging all the sorcery speed removal. Turn 4 vs Turn 5 tapping out is a big difference. Heliod is more resistant to enchantment removal than Assemble, and gives me a chance to resolve a Jace the following turn in the relevant match ups. Heliod also has better synergy with Mutavaults making it cost 1 less mana to attack with.
There's nothing wrong with Heliod being slow, if they have to jump through hoops to deal with it, it just makes my Aetherling lines that much better. If they don't, then Aetherling becomes a much faster clock when they do deal with the Heliod.
So again, there's very little justification in playing Red in UW shell, your aggro match ups get marginally better but your control match ups get worse, along with your consistency. Plus you open yourself up to Burning Earth more.
Now are there problem cards for UW? Sure, but those I can live with. Dodging sorcery speed removal? You get 1 attack with up to 3 (maximum...ever...) 2/1s in exchange for tapping out on EoT and giving an opponent a chance to Sphinx's, then still losing them all anyway the same you would with assemble, except that so long as you keep Assemble alive, it eventually becomes impossible to deal with short of Illness in the Ranks. Please stop, if you are going to use the example of tapping out into opposing Sphinx's as a counter-example, this discussion is pointless. Like I said before, that line of keeping Assemble alive is pointless one, I can use the same logic if I tap out with Aetherling and it survives I win. Let's put it this way, Heliod wins the game more consistently than Assemble. Assemble wins the game quicker, but at the cost of trading 5 mana for 3 or less. In the game of inevitability, would I rather have the card that is far more difficult to remove OR have the card that is far easier to remove? I am not sure why you are in some rush to win the game in the control shell; at 5 mana, I would rather play a Stormbreath Dragon than an Assemble to make them Verdict. Edit: That's not even considering how badly you have you warp your mana base to run Assemble, opportunity cost is a thing. If time isn't an issue... thoughts on Colossus of Akros being your finisher? Is it too expensive?
I'll admit it, I laughed. Good jab btw 
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On September 24 2013 08:38 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 08:30 Judicator wrote:On September 24 2013 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:On September 24 2013 07:49 Judicator wrote:
I don't ever want Heliod to be a creature, I have no intention of it being a creature. As for closing out a game, Assemble is worse by a large margin in a defensive deck since I only get creatures on upkeep as opposed to dodging all the sorcery speed removal. Turn 4 vs Turn 5 tapping out is a big difference. Heliod is more resistant to enchantment removal than Assemble, and gives me a chance to resolve a Jace the following turn in the relevant match ups. Heliod also has better synergy with Mutavaults making it cost 1 less mana to attack with.
There's nothing wrong with Heliod being slow, if they have to jump through hoops to deal with it, it just makes my Aetherling lines that much better. If they don't, then Aetherling becomes a much faster clock when they do deal with the Heliod.
So again, there's very little justification in playing Red in UW shell, your aggro match ups get marginally better but your control match ups get worse, along with your consistency. Plus you open yourself up to Burning Earth more.
Now are there problem cards for UW? Sure, but those I can live with. Dodging sorcery speed removal? You get 1 attack with up to 3 (maximum...ever...) 2/1s in exchange for tapping out on EoT and giving an opponent a chance to Sphinx's, then still losing them all anyway the same you would with assemble, except that so long as you keep Assemble alive, it eventually becomes impossible to deal with short of Illness in the Ranks. Please stop, if you are going to use the example of tapping out into opposing Sphinx's as a counter-example, this discussion is pointless. Like I said before, that line of keeping Assemble alive is pointless one, I can use the same logic if I tap out with Aetherling and it survives I win. Let's put it this way, Heliod wins the game more consistently than Assemble. Assemble wins the game quicker, but at the cost of trading 5 mana for 3 or less. In the game of inevitability, would I rather have the card that is far more difficult to remove OR have the card that is far easier to remove? I am not sure why you are in some rush to win the game in the control shell; at 5 mana, I would rather play a Stormbreath Dragon than an Assemble to make them Verdict. Edit: That's not even considering how badly you have you warp your mana base to run Assemble, opportunity cost is a thing. If time isn't an issue... thoughts on Colossus of Akros being your finisher? Is it too expensive?
Cute, but 10 mana in one payment seems excessive.
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I don't understand how heliod is "more reliable" than assemble the legion. You have to pay at least 8 mana before you get your first dude out, and then you have to pay for each subsequent one. Assemble is just fire and forget, got my dudes, now just protect the enchantment. Ok, assemble dies to turn/burn and golgari charm, but there's going to be d-sphere and glare of heresy everywhere anyway, so what does it really matter?
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On September 24 2013 08:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 08:38 Risen wrote:On September 24 2013 08:30 Judicator wrote:On September 24 2013 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:On September 24 2013 07:49 Judicator wrote:
I don't ever want Heliod to be a creature, I have no intention of it being a creature. As for closing out a game, Assemble is worse by a large margin in a defensive deck since I only get creatures on upkeep as opposed to dodging all the sorcery speed removal. Turn 4 vs Turn 5 tapping out is a big difference. Heliod is more resistant to enchantment removal than Assemble, and gives me a chance to resolve a Jace the following turn in the relevant match ups. Heliod also has better synergy with Mutavaults making it cost 1 less mana to attack with.
There's nothing wrong with Heliod being slow, if they have to jump through hoops to deal with it, it just makes my Aetherling lines that much better. If they don't, then Aetherling becomes a much faster clock when they do deal with the Heliod.
So again, there's very little justification in playing Red in UW shell, your aggro match ups get marginally better but your control match ups get worse, along with your consistency. Plus you open yourself up to Burning Earth more.
Now are there problem cards for UW? Sure, but those I can live with. Dodging sorcery speed removal? You get 1 attack with up to 3 (maximum...ever...) 2/1s in exchange for tapping out on EoT and giving an opponent a chance to Sphinx's, then still losing them all anyway the same you would with assemble, except that so long as you keep Assemble alive, it eventually becomes impossible to deal with short of Illness in the Ranks. Please stop, if you are going to use the example of tapping out into opposing Sphinx's as a counter-example, this discussion is pointless. Like I said before, that line of keeping Assemble alive is pointless one, I can use the same logic if I tap out with Aetherling and it survives I win. Let's put it this way, Heliod wins the game more consistently than Assemble. Assemble wins the game quicker, but at the cost of trading 5 mana for 3 or less. In the game of inevitability, would I rather have the card that is far more difficult to remove OR have the card that is far easier to remove? I am not sure why you are in some rush to win the game in the control shell; at 5 mana, I would rather play a Stormbreath Dragon than an Assemble to make them Verdict. Edit: That's not even considering how badly you have you warp your mana base to run Assemble, opportunity cost is a thing. If time isn't an issue... thoughts on Colossus of Akros being your finisher? Is it too expensive? I'll admit it, I laughed. Good jab btw
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On September 24 2013 09:54 Audemed wrote:
I don't understand how heliod is "more reliable" than assemble the legion. You have to pay at least 8 mana before you get your first dude out, and then you have to pay for each subsequent one. Assemble is just fire and forget, got my dudes, now just protect the enchantment. Ok, assemble dies to turn/burn and golgari charm, but there's going to be d-sphere and glare of heresy everywhere anyway, so what does it really matter?
Let's put it this way, you are never realistically tapping out on 5 unless you stone know they have no way of putting any kind of pressure on you and you aren't falling behind in tempo. So let's get away from that.
Secondly, I am not paying 8 mana upfront. Would I rather pay 4 then 4 or 5 straight up? Chances are, I never want to tap 5 straight up. Why? Because on 5, there are number of things that can just straight beat me before I am comfortable dealing with them even with an Assemble out. Some examples, PWs in general, another 5 drop on a board with creatures, I am just behind that point hoping that I don't die to anything. Assemble catches some additional enchantment hate intended for Detention Sphere.
Now will it kill if it is left alone? Sure. More efficient than Heliod? Definitely. Is there a pretty good chance especially post-board that you just traded terribly? Too high for me to want to play it.
Now let's look at Heliod. Right now very things answer it once it resolves, and most of them are sorcery speed, so I am ok trading 4 mana for a 3 mana spell if it means I can resolve something else later like Jace-4 especially in the control mirror. Secondly, I am more worried about my mana base, I can't afford to run a tri-color deck that cuts me off from tempo (just dying cause your lands come into play tapped), and mutavaults.
Remember, there's no rush to do anything. It's reliable in that Heliod is FAR more likely to stay on the field than Assemble is. Both will kill, just one is far safer than the other.
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I think finishers in modern Control are all basically the same thing...it's probably the least relevant part of playing the deck, right?
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Well they need to be resilient if you are running a small number of them, but I don't think any control deck is relying just on a single thing. Like my UW deck has multiple avenues of winning that I am not banking on resolving and keeping an Aetherling. I think it's probably more important than what some deck builders give it credit for since you need a reliable way to just win once the game stabilizes in your favor, you can't just chain Sphinx's and have no way of winning before they draw out of it. Getting there is important sure, but you need to lay the pressure on pretty quickly.
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Up until now I'd been using Aurelia, as she has great synergy with restos with just getting the damage in before they have a chance to react. Sure, if they have a doomblade in hand it kind of sucks, but she just crushed the board a good 75% of the time. Now, without the 4 drop flash flyer, I'm relying on other things to finish the game for me, namely aetherling and assemble. I think heliod is good to put in there as a 1-of, but I'm not confident in him as being as reliable of a finisher as the other two.
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A few seasons ago, UW could play Colonnades and Gideon Jura and Sphinx of Jwar Isle. Those guys would seal a game right up. Mm those were the days. UB was even luckier to have Grave Titan, Consecrated Sphinx and the ultimate wincon: Drownyard.
But really, the who hasn't won a game with 10 poison off one Inkmoth Nexus?
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On September 24 2013 12:23 Audemed wrote:
Up until now I'd been using Aurelia, as she has great synergy with restos with just getting the damage in before they have a chance to react. Sure, if they have a doomblade in hand it kind of sucks, but she just crushed the board a good 75% of the time. Now, without the 4 drop flash flyer, I'm relying on other things to finish the game for me, namely aetherling and assemble. I think heliod is good to put in there as a 1-of, but I'm not confident in him as being as reliable of a finisher as the other two.
Dies to a little too much. Doom Blade isn't an issue, but a Mizzium Mortars for decks with no access to Black, getting it Azorius Charmed kind of sucks too.
I wouldn't recommend playing Heliod in a tri-color deck. Assemble is better in the UWR, but its just that mana base is shakier overall.
As for the good old days. I wrap up a surprising number of games with Mutavault. If they block in a situation where I know they have no relevant cards in hand, I just charm offensively and make them draw it again.
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On September 24 2013 13:15 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 12:23 Audemed wrote:
Up until now I'd been using Aurelia, as she has great synergy with restos with just getting the damage in before they have a chance to react. Sure, if they have a doomblade in hand it kind of sucks, but she just crushed the board a good 75% of the time. Now, without the 4 drop flash flyer, I'm relying on other things to finish the game for me, namely aetherling and assemble. I think heliod is good to put in there as a 1-of, but I'm not confident in him as being as reliable of a finisher as the other two. Dies to a little too much. Doom Blade isn't an issue, but a Mizzium Mortars for decks with no access to Black, getting it Azorius Charmed kind of sucks too. I wouldn't recommend playing Heliod in a tri-color deck. Assemble is better in the UWR, but its just that mana base is shakier overall. As for the good old days. I wrap up a surprising number of games with Mutavault. If they block in a situation where I know they have no relevant cards in hand, I just charm offensively and make them draw it again.
How does mutavault work in UW? Like what do you do with it? 2 power beats over time while denying their board?
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It doesn't come into play tapped, which is huge. It can get in value damage when your opponent stumbles. It can buy you a turn when you stumble and, yes, in some cases, it can win you the game over 15 turns. Manlands are so sweet.
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On September 24 2013 14:17 slyboogie wrote:
It doesn't come into play tapped, which is huge. It can get in value damage when your opponent stumbles. It can buy you a turn when you stumble and, yes, in some cases, it can win you the game over 15 turns. Manlands are so sweet.
Never played with Mutavault--but I looks like faerie conclave on crack and that card was ridiculously good.
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On September 24 2013 14:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 14:17 slyboogie wrote:
It doesn't come into play tapped, which is huge. It can get in value damage when your opponent stumbles. It can buy you a turn when you stumble and, yes, in some cases, it can win you the game over 15 turns. Manlands are so sweet. Never played with Mutavault--but I looks like faerie conclave on crack and that card was ridiculously good.
Conclave had evasion, though. I can see its use, though, after playing a board sweep and stabilized or as a last ditch emergency blocker.
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United States24814 Posts
I understand why mutavault is good in limited, especially when combined with slivers, advocate of the beast, etc. It didn't occur to me until reading this that it would be worth putting it into standard decks, and without taking advantage of the above mechanics... I will have to try it.
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Fuck it, I decided it. I'm going to be that guy trying to play Trainwreck in standard. Crypt Ghast, Chromatic Lantern, Liliana, and Debt to the Debtless here I come.
Edit: You may be asking "why the fuck would you want to do that?" Because why not that's why.
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On September 24 2013 14:49 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 14:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 24 2013 14:17 slyboogie wrote:
It doesn't come into play tapped, which is huge. It can get in value damage when your opponent stumbles. It can buy you a turn when you stumble and, yes, in some cases, it can win you the game over 15 turns. Manlands are so sweet. Never played with Mutavault--but I looks like faerie conclave on crack and that card was ridiculously good. Conclave had evasion, though. I can see its use, though, after playing a board sweep and stabilized or as a last ditch emergency blocker.
Deck space is the reason. I get to play 4 more threats for very little cost.
Alternatively, getting 4 damage in means Aetherling is 2 turn clock. Just a slow burn, protects my PWs if need be. Really hard to attack through at times.
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On September 24 2013 22:39 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 14:49 Risen wrote:On September 24 2013 14:45 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 24 2013 14:17 slyboogie wrote:
It doesn't come into play tapped, which is huge. It can get in value damage when your opponent stumbles. It can buy you a turn when you stumble and, yes, in some cases, it can win you the game over 15 turns. Manlands are so sweet. Never played with Mutavault--but I looks like faerie conclave on crack and that card was ridiculously good. Conclave had evasion, though. I can see its use, though, after playing a board sweep and stabilized or as a last ditch emergency blocker. Deck space is the reason. I get to play 4 more threats for very little cost. Alternatively, getting 4 damage in means Aetherling is 2 turn clock. Just a slow burn, protects my PWs if need be. Really hard to attack through at times.
It also threatens enemy planeswalkers, something important to remember if you would rather save counters/removal for better targets.
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Yes, that too, but there aren't too many PWs I care about where I can swing with a Mutavault and really get them off the board in a timely manner. Its better than nothing I guess.
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EPT
