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United States5142 Posts
On September 23 2013 14:59 5-s wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 14:44 iGrok wrote:On September 23 2013 14:29 Shotcoder wrote:
Here's a question, what do you guys plan on playing for Standard now? The Rock. 4 Putrefy 4 Golgari Charm 4 Doom Blade 4 Hero's Downfall 4 Abrupt Decay 4 Desecration Demon 2 Vraska the Unseen 4 Scavenging Ooze 4 Thoughtseize 4 Read the Bones 4 Overgrown Tomb 4 Golgari Guildgate 8 Swamp 6 Forest Doesn't this list just auto-fold to most control decks? You got so much targeted removal and so few threats.
First of all, control is pretty rare, especially when a set has just come out. There isn't the card pool that control really needs. Second, what can they do to me? Counter the killspells i'm casting on their non-existent creatures?
And how does control win? Aetherling slams? I hope you can keep it alive through 4+ killspells. Your aetherling costs 10 mana to play, assuming I don't thoughtseize it, and I have Mistcutter hydras or savage summoning in the sideboard (still working on that, and being able to simply swap out killspells for threats is fun - might do both, or even add skylasher if control is the only threat).
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Elspeth seems like a decent hoser against you honestly. Ashiok? Assemble? And saying that Contorl wont have 10+ mana when they cast Aetherling is pretty bold considering that's about they time they casted it in the old standard.
Edit: About the whole mana thing, yea it seems horrible and I don't think I will get it to work I just wanted that to work. I will probably play RW or BW midrange of some sort.
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Lol control is pretty rare? Pretty sure esper will be one of the most common decks post rotation. How does control win? The Rock deck posted looks pretty bad
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On September 23 2013 15:50 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 15:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 23 2013 14:44 iGrok wrote:On September 23 2013 14:29 Shotcoder wrote:
Here's a question, what do you guys plan on playing for Standard now? The Rock. 4 Putrefy 4 Golgari Charm 4 Doom Blade 4 Hero's Downfall 4 Abrupt Decay 4 Desecration Demon 2 Vraska the Unseen 4 Scavenging Ooze 4 Thoughtseize 4 Read the Bones 4 Overgrown Tomb 4 Golgari Guildgate 8 Swamp 6 Forest Isn't "The Rock" a heavy disruption midrange deck with big creatures supported by wrath effects that clears swarms of small dudes as you bully the red zone with big dudes? This neither has disruption, wrath effects, nor reliable big dudes. Although the color seems right. This terminology was lost around Alara I beleive. There was an Article about in on SCG comparing modern midrange decks. The Rock essentially turn into just BG instead of the playstyle description. As for my deck Idea. I really want to test something like this. 4x Boros Reckoner 4x Desecration Demon 3x Blood Baron or Vizkopa 1x Obzedat 3x Chained to the rocks 4x Warleader's Helix 2x Rakdos's Return 1x Rakdos Keyrune 3x Anger the Gods 3x doom blade 3x Dreadbore 1x Whip of Erebos 3x Read the bones 25x Lands but I think the mana in this set is too poor and I will probably go Boros or Orzhov.
It's little factoids like this that make me feel ancient lol
Thanks for the update 
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On September 23 2013 16:10 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 14:59 5-s wrote:On September 23 2013 14:44 iGrok wrote:On September 23 2013 14:29 Shotcoder wrote:
Here's a question, what do you guys plan on playing for Standard now? The Rock. 4 Putrefy 4 Golgari Charm 4 Doom Blade 4 Hero's Downfall 4 Abrupt Decay 4 Desecration Demon 2 Vraska the Unseen 4 Scavenging Ooze 4 Thoughtseize 4 Read the Bones 4 Overgrown Tomb 4 Golgari Guildgate 8 Swamp 6 Forest Doesn't this list just auto-fold to most control decks? You got so much targeted removal and so few threats. First of all, control is pretty rare, especially when a set has just come out. There isn't the card pool that control really needs. Second, what can they do to me? Counter the killspells i'm casting on their non-existent creatures? And how does control win? Aetherling slams? I hope you can keep it alive through 4+ killspells. Your aetherling costs 10 mana to play, assuming I don't thoughtseize it, and I have Mistcutter hydras or savage summoning in the sideboard (still working on that, and being able to simply swap out killspells for threats is fun - might do both, or even add skylasher if control is the only threat).
I will tell you right now that deck does shit to UW. I have played that MU and its been like free as hell. Your post-board plans against control is like lol more discard spells.
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Still trying to get UW(x) to where I'd feel comfortable playing it at something bigger than FNM. Junk was testing well against UWx and GW, but I always felt a turn too slow against monored, and blood baron was pretty rough out of BW(R).
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Not sure how UW was a dog to Junk in your testing, unless you are just jamming cards that are underpowered in the deck. The UW shell just needs consistency, nothing too fancy is really necessary. Like the only match up I legitimately worry about is the mono red match up and that is like a 6-4 pre-board.
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On September 23 2013 15:50 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 15:03 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 23 2013 14:44 iGrok wrote:On September 23 2013 14:29 Shotcoder wrote:
Here's a question, what do you guys plan on playing for Standard now? The Rock. 4 Putrefy 4 Golgari Charm 4 Doom Blade 4 Hero's Downfall 4 Abrupt Decay 4 Desecration Demon 2 Vraska the Unseen 4 Scavenging Ooze 4 Thoughtseize 4 Read the Bones 4 Overgrown Tomb 4 Golgari Guildgate 8 Swamp 6 Forest Isn't "The Rock" a heavy disruption midrange deck with big creatures supported by wrath effects that clears swarms of small dudes as you bully the red zone with big dudes? This neither has disruption, wrath effects, nor reliable big dudes. Although the color seems right. This terminology was lost around Alara I beleive. There was an Article about in on SCG comparing modern midrange decks. The Rock essentially turn into just BG instead of the playstyle description. As for my deck Idea. I really want to test something like this. 4x Boros Reckoner 4x Desecration Demon 3x Blood Baron or Vizkopa 1x Obzedat 3x Chained to the rocks 4x Warleader's Helix 2x Rakdos's Return 1x Rakdos Keyrune 3x Anger the Gods 3x doom blade 3x Dreadbore 1x Whip of Erebos 3x Read the bones 25x Lands but I think the mana in this set is too poor and I will probably go Boros or Orzhov.
I have a similar list. This deck will be one of the more popular at the start I think though so you definitely need a way to deal with opposing Blood Barons. I'd probably cut 1 helix and 1 doomblade for 2 mortars.
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I'm trying to find a reason to go Grixis over Dega or American and coming up blank :/
WHY CAN'T I EVER FORCE GRIXIS T_T
Edit: I will say any control deck not playing red needs to have a damn good reason (Looking at you Esper)
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I've been sold on Dega during testing personally, but still trying to make mono-black control work as well.
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United States5142 Posts
Someone please post a U/W checklist they plan on running
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On September 24 2013 03:31 Risen wrote:
I'm trying to find a reason to go Grixis over Dega or American and coming up blank :/
WHY CAN'T I EVER FORCE GRIXIS T_T
Edit: I will say any control deck not playing red needs to have a damn good reason (Looking at you Esper)
Theres no justification for playing Red whatsoever, just not needed. Why screw up consistency to play marginal answers?
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But magma jet, anger, and assemble :<
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Magma Jet hits nothing of relevance. Assemble is worse than Heliod. Anger is RR in a deck that has WW and UU on top of not doing anything that Verdict can't. Ral Zarek, Turn/Burn bigger incentives. The Esper mu is harder since they have better cards for the control MU.
Reds a giant trap.
Plus you have no chance of mutavault in 3 colors
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On September 24 2013 05:30 Judicator wrote:
Magma Jet hits nothing of relevance. Assemble is worse than Heliod. Anger is RR in a deck that has WW and UU on top of not doing anything that Verdict can't. Ral Zarek, Turn/Burn bigger incentives. The Esper mu is harder since they have better cards for the control MU.
Reds a giant trap.
Plus you have no chance of mutavault in 3 colors
Assemble is much, much better at closing out games than Heliod is. It all depends on how much enchantment removal will see play in the format, and even then, Heliod is incredibly slow and you will never trigger devotion in a control deck.
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I don't ever want Heliod to be a creature, I have no intention of it being a creature. As for closing out a game, Assemble is worse by a large margin in a defensive deck since I only get creatures on upkeep as opposed to dodging all the sorcery speed removal. Turn 4 vs Turn 5 tapping out is a big difference. Heliod is more resistant to enchantment removal than Assemble, and gives me a chance to resolve a Jace the following turn in the relevant match ups. Heliod also has better synergy with Mutavaults making it cost 1 less mana to attack with.
There's nothing wrong with Heliod being slow, if they have to jump through hoops to deal with it, it just makes my Aetherling lines that much better. If they don't, then Aetherling becomes a much faster clock when they do deal with the Heliod.
So again, there's very little justification in playing Red in UW shell, your aggro match ups get marginally better but your control match ups get worse, along with your consistency. Plus you open yourself up to Burning Earth more.
Now are there problem cards for UW? Sure, but those I can live with.
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I just want to run thoughtseize... is that so much to ask? I can't stand the esper manabase right now. It feels so poor against aggro. I'm running black for blood baron and thoughtseize at this point. Would absolutely love to be able to play hero's downfall but BB seems so hard. Am I overthinking this? The mana base didn't get worse numbers wise from last standard, it just got slower.
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On September 24 2013 07:49 Judicator wrote:
I don't ever want Heliod to be a creature, I have no intention of it being a creature. As for closing out a game, Assemble is worse by a large margin in a defensive deck since I only get creatures on upkeep as opposed to dodging all the sorcery speed removal. Turn 4 vs Turn 5 tapping out is a big difference. Heliod is more resistant to enchantment removal than Assemble, and gives me a chance to resolve a Jace the following turn in the relevant match ups. Heliod also has better synergy with Mutavaults making it cost 1 less mana to attack with.
There's nothing wrong with Heliod being slow, if they have to jump through hoops to deal with it, it just makes my Aetherling lines that much better. If they don't, then Aetherling becomes a much faster clock when they do deal with the Heliod.
So again, there's very little justification in playing Red in UW shell, your aggro match ups get marginally better but your control match ups get worse, along with your consistency. Plus you open yourself up to Burning Earth more.
Now are there problem cards for UW? Sure, but those I can live with.
Dodging sorcery speed removal? You get 1 attack with up to 3 (maximum...ever...) 2/1s in exchange for tapping out on EoT and giving an opponent a chance to Sphinx's, then still losing them all anyway the same you would with assemble, except that so long as you keep Assemble alive, it eventually becomes impossible to deal with short of Illness in the Ranks.
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On September 24 2013 07:56 Risen wrote:
I just want to run thoughtseize... is that so much to ask? I can't stand the esper manabase right now. It feels so poor against aggro. I'm running black for blood baron and thoughtseize at this point. Would absolutely love to be able to play hero's downfall but BB seems so hard. Am I overthinking this? The mana base didn't get worse numbers wise from last standard, it just got slower.
It isn't worth running any of those cards. Thoughtseize is underwhelming since there's no combo deck in the format; to put it another way, in the control match ups the card isn't any more amazing than Duress nor do you want 4 of them, in the others, you are going down 2 life which isn't insignificant along with just being a stone brick later on.
Hero's Downfall would be great if you didn't have access to Detention Sphere which is better overall at the role that card serves. Blood Baron while nice has 4 toughness which means in the match you really want it in, it stands a good chance at dying along with being too slow.
Essentially, Esper plays sideboard cards in the main board at the cost of consistency and tempo.
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On September 24 2013 08:20 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 07:49 Judicator wrote:
I don't ever want Heliod to be a creature, I have no intention of it being a creature. As for closing out a game, Assemble is worse by a large margin in a defensive deck since I only get creatures on upkeep as opposed to dodging all the sorcery speed removal. Turn 4 vs Turn 5 tapping out is a big difference. Heliod is more resistant to enchantment removal than Assemble, and gives me a chance to resolve a Jace the following turn in the relevant match ups. Heliod also has better synergy with Mutavaults making it cost 1 less mana to attack with.
There's nothing wrong with Heliod being slow, if they have to jump through hoops to deal with it, it just makes my Aetherling lines that much better. If they don't, then Aetherling becomes a much faster clock when they do deal with the Heliod.
So again, there's very little justification in playing Red in UW shell, your aggro match ups get marginally better but your control match ups get worse, along with your consistency. Plus you open yourself up to Burning Earth more.
Now are there problem cards for UW? Sure, but those I can live with. Dodging sorcery speed removal? You get 1 attack with up to 3 (maximum...ever...) 2/1s in exchange for tapping out on EoT and giving an opponent a chance to Sphinx's, then still losing them all anyway the same you would with assemble, except that so long as you keep Assemble alive, it eventually becomes impossible to deal with short of Illness in the Ranks.
Please stop, if you are going to use the example of tapping out into opposing Sphinx's as a counter-example, this discussion is pointless.
Like I said before, that line of keeping Assemble alive is pointless one, I can use the same logic if I tap out with Aetherling and it survives I win. Let's put it this way, Heliod wins the game more consistently than Assemble. Assemble wins the game quicker, but at the cost of trading 5 mana for 3 or less. In the game of inevitability, would I rather have the card that is far more difficult to remove OR have the card that is far easier to remove?
I am not sure why you are in some rush to win the game in the control shell; at 5 mana, I would rather play a Stormbreath Dragon than an Assemble to make them Verdict.
Edit:
That's not even considering how badly you have you warp your mana base to run Assemble, opportunity cost is a thing.
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EPT
