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On September 16 2013 13:43 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 13:26 Shotcoder wrote:On September 16 2013 13:22 KtheZ wrote:On September 16 2013 10:42 MendulaOblongata wrote:
Ok I just got Magic Online after only playing cards a few years back. Is there any way to get a quick refresher course and learn about all the new cards in modern? thanks a lot Netdeck from Mtgsalvation and playtest on cockatrice. I'd be willing to playtest with you once in a while if its cockatrice Netdecking is awful advice. Each player plays differently and can win better with different types of decks. Yes some people can netdeck the "best deck" and win, but lots of players(myself included) win more when they approach the format from their own perspective and building/testing their own deck. You can't expect him to build a deck without even knowing what cards are in the pool. And even if he does, he won't understand why it's winning or losing. If you want to understand a format, your first priority should be to look up all of the tier 1&2 decks and play around with several of them. Rogue deckbuilding can't be successful unless you understand what it is you're trying to beat.
I didn't say don't look at the top tier decks. And I didn't say don't play top tier decks. I said don't net deck. Don't copy and paste a list and expect to win a tourny with it. If you take a list and tweak it to fit your play style, imo that's not net decking. That took testing and adjusting and familiarizing yourself with the deck and format.
I think my wording of my previous statement was poor and that I didn't think through what I wanted to say correctly.
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On September 16 2013 13:51 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 13:43 Cel.erity wrote:On September 16 2013 13:26 Shotcoder wrote:On September 16 2013 13:22 KtheZ wrote:On September 16 2013 10:42 MendulaOblongata wrote:
Ok I just got Magic Online after only playing cards a few years back. Is there any way to get a quick refresher course and learn about all the new cards in modern? thanks a lot Netdeck from Mtgsalvation and playtest on cockatrice. I'd be willing to playtest with you once in a while if its cockatrice Netdecking is awful advice. Each player plays differently and can win better with different types of decks. Yes some people can netdeck the "best deck" and win, but lots of players(myself included) win more when they approach the format from their own perspective and building/testing their own deck. You can't expect him to build a deck without even knowing what cards are in the pool. And even if he does, he won't understand why it's winning or losing. If you want to understand a format, your first priority should be to look up all of the tier 1&2 decks and play around with several of them. Rogue deckbuilding can't be successful unless you understand what it is you're trying to beat. I didn't say don't look at the top tier decks. And I didn't say don't play top tier decks. I said don't net deck. Don't copy and paste a list and expect to win a tourny with it. If you take a list and tweak it to fit your play style, imo that's not net decking. That took testing and adjusting and familiarizing yourself with the deck and format. I think my wording of my previous statement was poor and that I didn't think through what I wanted to say correctly.
Regardless, you should never tweak a successful deck until you play a decent amount of games with it and understand how it operates. There's a reason why the creator chose the cards and counts that are present, and without knowing those reasons, any modifications will just lead you further away from what's optimal.
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On September 16 2013 13:59 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 13:51 Shotcoder wrote:On September 16 2013 13:43 Cel.erity wrote:On September 16 2013 13:26 Shotcoder wrote:On September 16 2013 13:22 KtheZ wrote:On September 16 2013 10:42 MendulaOblongata wrote:
Ok I just got Magic Online after only playing cards a few years back. Is there any way to get a quick refresher course and learn about all the new cards in modern? thanks a lot Netdeck from Mtgsalvation and playtest on cockatrice. I'd be willing to playtest with you once in a while if its cockatrice Netdecking is awful advice. Each player plays differently and can win better with different types of decks. Yes some people can netdeck the "best deck" and win, but lots of players(myself included) win more when they approach the format from their own perspective and building/testing their own deck. You can't expect him to build a deck without even knowing what cards are in the pool. And even if he does, he won't understand why it's winning or losing. If you want to understand a format, your first priority should be to look up all of the tier 1&2 decks and play around with several of them. Rogue deckbuilding can't be successful unless you understand what it is you're trying to beat. I didn't say don't look at the top tier decks. And I didn't say don't play top tier decks. I said don't net deck. Don't copy and paste a list and expect to win a tourny with it. If you take a list and tweak it to fit your play style, imo that's not net decking. That took testing and adjusting and familiarizing yourself with the deck and format. I think my wording of my previous statement was poor and that I didn't think through what I wanted to say correctly. Regardless, you should never tweak a successful deck until you play a decent amount of games with it and understand how it operates. There's a reason why the creator chose the cards and counts that are present, and without knowing those reasons, any modifications will just lead you further away from what's optimal.
I disagree, optimal is dependent not only on the deck but also the play style of the player. That's why you see so many alterations of decks. The way they mentally grasp aspects of the game is always different so someone might feel more comfortable being proactive so play 1 more THoughtseize or 1 more Inquisition while someone else might be more proactive and play 1 more Decay or 1 more Pulse. That's not always about being optimal but more about how you want the deck to function so you as a player feel more comfortable.
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On September 16 2013 14:03 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 13:59 Cel.erity wrote:On September 16 2013 13:51 Shotcoder wrote:On September 16 2013 13:43 Cel.erity wrote:On September 16 2013 13:26 Shotcoder wrote:On September 16 2013 13:22 KtheZ wrote:On September 16 2013 10:42 MendulaOblongata wrote:
Ok I just got Magic Online after only playing cards a few years back. Is there any way to get a quick refresher course and learn about all the new cards in modern? thanks a lot Netdeck from Mtgsalvation and playtest on cockatrice. I'd be willing to playtest with you once in a while if its cockatrice Netdecking is awful advice. Each player plays differently and can win better with different types of decks. Yes some people can netdeck the "best deck" and win, but lots of players(myself included) win more when they approach the format from their own perspective and building/testing their own deck. You can't expect him to build a deck without even knowing what cards are in the pool. And even if he does, he won't understand why it's winning or losing. If you want to understand a format, your first priority should be to look up all of the tier 1&2 decks and play around with several of them. Rogue deckbuilding can't be successful unless you understand what it is you're trying to beat. I didn't say don't look at the top tier decks. And I didn't say don't play top tier decks. I said don't net deck. Don't copy and paste a list and expect to win a tourny with it. If you take a list and tweak it to fit your play style, imo that's not net decking. That took testing and adjusting and familiarizing yourself with the deck and format. I think my wording of my previous statement was poor and that I didn't think through what I wanted to say correctly. Regardless, you should never tweak a successful deck until you play a decent amount of games with it and understand how it operates. There's a reason why the creator chose the cards and counts that are present, and without knowing those reasons, any modifications will just lead you further away from what's optimal. I disagree, optimal is dependent not only on the deck but also the play style of the player. That's why you see so many alterations of decks. The way they mentally grasp aspects of the game is always different so someone might feel more comfortable being proactive so play 1 more THoughtseize or 1 more Inquisition while someone else might be more proactive and play 1 more Decay or 1 more Pulse. That's not always about being optimal but more about how you want the deck to function so you as a player feel more comfortable.
I didn't say don't tweak the deck, I said don't tweak it until you've played games with it. How are you supposed to know whether you're supposed to cut a Thoughtseize for a Pulse without testing? This is the mistake a lot of novice deckbuilders make, they change things without understanding the numbers and then misattribute their testing results, leading to more changes and more misattribution, and eventually the list becomes a mess.
Essentially, you always need a baseline, and the best baseline is a tested deck + an article/word of mouth explaining why the choices were made. From there, you can test and then make educated decisions, and know why you're making every change.
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There's a lot of podcasts out there you can listen to alongside using gatherer to wiki up what they're talking about. Modern is tricky since it's more about understanding what doesn't see play and why as what does, but you can pick it up in a few weeks if you flood podcasts and read some articles.
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On September 16 2013 13:26 Shotcoder wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 13:22 KtheZ wrote:On September 16 2013 10:42 MendulaOblongata wrote:
Ok I just got Magic Online after only playing cards a few years back. Is there any way to get a quick refresher course and learn about all the new cards in modern? thanks a lot Netdeck from Mtgsalvation and playtest on cockatrice. I'd be willing to playtest with you once in a while if its cockatrice Netdecking is awful advice. Each player plays differently and can win better with different types of decks. Yes some people can netdeck the "best deck" and win, but lots of players(myself included) win more when they approach the format from their own perspective and building/testing their own deck.
Its like building workers in Starcraft.
You always netdeck until you understand the format so much that you know when to stop netdecking.
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On September 16 2013 14:08 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 14:03 Shotcoder wrote:On September 16 2013 13:59 Cel.erity wrote:On September 16 2013 13:51 Shotcoder wrote:On September 16 2013 13:43 Cel.erity wrote:On September 16 2013 13:26 Shotcoder wrote:On September 16 2013 13:22 KtheZ wrote:On September 16 2013 10:42 MendulaOblongata wrote:
Ok I just got Magic Online after only playing cards a few years back. Is there any way to get a quick refresher course and learn about all the new cards in modern? thanks a lot Netdeck from Mtgsalvation and playtest on cockatrice. I'd be willing to playtest with you once in a while if its cockatrice Netdecking is awful advice. Each player plays differently and can win better with different types of decks. Yes some people can netdeck the "best deck" and win, but lots of players(myself included) win more when they approach the format from their own perspective and building/testing their own deck. You can't expect him to build a deck without even knowing what cards are in the pool. And even if he does, he won't understand why it's winning or losing. If you want to understand a format, your first priority should be to look up all of the tier 1&2 decks and play around with several of them. Rogue deckbuilding can't be successful unless you understand what it is you're trying to beat. I didn't say don't look at the top tier decks. And I didn't say don't play top tier decks. I said don't net deck. Don't copy and paste a list and expect to win a tourny with it. If you take a list and tweak it to fit your play style, imo that's not net decking. That took testing and adjusting and familiarizing yourself with the deck and format. I think my wording of my previous statement was poor and that I didn't think through what I wanted to say correctly. Regardless, you should never tweak a successful deck until you play a decent amount of games with it and understand how it operates. There's a reason why the creator chose the cards and counts that are present, and without knowing those reasons, any modifications will just lead you further away from what's optimal. I disagree, optimal is dependent not only on the deck but also the play style of the player. That's why you see so many alterations of decks. The way they mentally grasp aspects of the game is always different so someone might feel more comfortable being proactive so play 1 more THoughtseize or 1 more Inquisition while someone else might be more proactive and play 1 more Decay or 1 more Pulse. That's not always about being optimal but more about how you want the deck to function so you as a player feel more comfortable. I didn't say don't tweak the deck, I said don't tweak it until you've played games with it. How are you supposed to know whether you're supposed to cut a Thoughtseize for a Pulse without testing? This is the mistake a lot of novice deckbuilders make, they change things without understanding the numbers and then misattribute their testing results, leading to more changes and more misattribution, and eventually the list becomes a mess. Essentially, you always need a baseline, and the best baseline is a tested deck + an article/word of mouth explaining why the choices were made. From there, you can test and then make educated decisions, and know why you're making every change.
We're arguing small differences even though our view points are basically the same lol.
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On September 16 2013 14:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 13:26 Shotcoder wrote:On September 16 2013 13:22 KtheZ wrote:On September 16 2013 10:42 MendulaOblongata wrote:
Ok I just got Magic Online after only playing cards a few years back. Is there any way to get a quick refresher course and learn about all the new cards in modern? thanks a lot Netdeck from Mtgsalvation and playtest on cockatrice. I'd be willing to playtest with you once in a while if its cockatrice Netdecking is awful advice. Each player plays differently and can win better with different types of decks. Yes some people can netdeck the "best deck" and win, but lots of players(myself included) win more when they approach the format from their own perspective and building/testing their own deck. Its like building workers in Starcraft. You always netdeck until you understand the format so much that you know when to stop netdecking.
This guy gets it, Shot is being stupidly stubborn. Netdeck until you understand enough not to do it.
Netdecking is a great first step, like playing a land on turn 1.
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On September 16 2013 14:23 Zdrastochye wrote:
Netdecking is a great first step, like playing an island on turn 1.
Fixed.
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On September 16 2013 14:25 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 14:23 Zdrastochye wrote:
Netdecking is a great first step, like playing an island on turn 1. Fixed.
No cause some people have different playstyles so while an island might be good for one person, a mountain might be good for others. Playing an island turn one even if your deck doesn't have it is a bad play.
Shotcoder level argument!
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I put at least one island in every deck I build, regardless of color, just so that I can play it on turn 1. It's the best play in Magic.
What if I have Force Spike AND Daze? All of your spells cost 2 more for the rest of the game, gg.
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On September 16 2013 14:32 Cel.erity wrote:
I put at least one island in every deck I build, regardless of color, just so that I can play it on turn 1. It's the best play in Magic.
What if I have Force Spike AND Daze? All of your spells cost 2 more for the rest of the game, gg.
That turn 1 island vs Dredge so you can play Visions of Beyond. That value.
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On September 16 2013 14:28 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2013 14:25 Cel.erity wrote:On September 16 2013 14:23 Zdrastochye wrote:
Netdecking is a great first step, like playing an island on turn 1. Fixed. No cause some people have different playstyles so while an island might be good for one person, a mountain might be good for others. Playing an island turn one even if your deck doesn't have it is a bad play. Shotcoder level argument!
maddest nerd on the internet.
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Thanks for all of the good advice. My last question is where do I find the list of decks to net deck? thanks a lot
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look for the decklists from recent tournaments. I believe Star city games posts up the top 8 of their opens, and wizards lists the top 8 at PTs an GPs
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On September 16 2013 20:55 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
look for the decklists from recent tournaments. I believe Star city games posts up the top 8 of their opens, and wizards lists the top 8 at PTs an GPs
Heads up, all of the decks in all of those lists will cost you ~$400. I prefer budgetizing those lists or searching for budget lists off gatheringmagic or mtgsalvation. They are nowhere near as good and you won't win a GP with them, but they're good enough to take down the odd FNM and teach you deckbuilding basics.
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On September 16 2013 20:55 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
look for the decklists from recent tournaments. I believe Star city games posts up the top 8 of their opens, and wizards lists the top 8 at PTs an GPs
7/8 UW flash decks 
Which is what happens when people don't play Voice
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What do you guys think about Yoked Ox ?
I've been playtesting a mid-range creature heavy white deck based on Heliod and his spear, and have found him to be a wonderful 1-drop against agressive decks. I love having him in my side-deck, knowing that drawing him early pretty much negates any agressive play from my opponent until T3, where I can safely play spear into heliod and start hammering away their defense.
Dunno, he sounds terrible but in practice I really love him against RDW.
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My problem with the Ox is that its not Precinct Captain >.> Without being able to remove red's threats, your board state doesnt improve very much. Soldier of the Pantheon stops Rakdos Cackler dead on Turn 1 and is certainly tradable with Legion Loyalist. Precinct Captain trades equally with Ash Zealot and from there they wont be doing enough damage through your 3-4 drops. If you're not removing red's board presence, Firefist Striker and Chandra's Phoenix will be too much to handle. Ya your stuff dies to Shock + Lightning Strike and all that but the idea is you have to survive to turn 4 and be somewhat stable doing so. Ox doesnt trade with anything and on turn 3 it isnt even blocking thanks to Firefist. Ya it slows down a Rakdos Cackler and Legion Loyalist and ash Zealot, but I guess my problem with it is that even with a Spear in play it doesnt kill anything other than Loyalist + Firefist. IMO I'd much rather something to intimidate Rakdos and trade with Legion, such as Soldier + Precinct Captain.
Edit: I wouldn't assume that the Ox will be alive at any given point past turn 3-4 for Devotion purposes with Lightning Strike making it killable blocking a 1/1 Legion Loyalist, which youll probably be blocking Ash Zealot anyways, making it killable by Shock. Idk, I think id just much rather have the trade capabilities with Reds creatures, due almost entirely to Firefist Striker.
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On September 16 2013 20:45 MendulaOblongata wrote:
Thanks for all of the good advice. My last question is where do I find the list of decks to net deck? thanks a lot
http://www.mtgtop8.com/
Good place to keep track of trends, and the "compare decks" features allows you to see how often each cards are used to reveal how essential they are.
Make budget versions off them.
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EPT
