EPTCoiling Oracle doesn't do a whole lot consistently; if you want ramp, you'll play actual ramp cards, if you want a card draw, you'll play actual card draw.
Magic: The Gathering - Page 374
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Coiling Oracle doesn't do a whole lot consistently; if you want ramp, you'll play actual ramp cards, if you want a card draw, you'll play actual card draw. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
Verdict? Ajani? Abrupt Decay? Various other toolbox options seems viable. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
I think if you're assembling a wish toolbox, it has to be really robust. Abrupt Decay isn't the type of card you want there. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Like the fetch better hose their deck completely and not some half assed stop gap response. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On May 15 2013 14:03 Judicator wrote: Um why are you spending a turn to fetch an answer? Seems pretty slow and poor deck construction. As in if you are playing that Wish as another copy of the card you are fetching then why isn't that card in the main in the first place? Since combo really isnt viable, what is the point of taking a turn off to fetch a card that doesn't win you the game? It essentially lets you get the card you need now, Game 1. What if you dont draw Verdict? What if you need to answer an Oring or detention Sphere? I'm not saying 4 OF GLITTERING WISH HUEHUE. 2-3 copies seems fine. Especially if you aren't running blue for gifts. Edit: That's why I went with the toolbox option. There's not really a AH HA I WIN card in Modern. I was just curious why card that screams to be broken has little to no play or coverage. | ||
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
On May 15 2013 14:06 Shotcoder wrote: It essentially lets you get the card you need now, Game 1. What if you dont draw Verdict? What if you need to answer an Oring or detention Sphere? I'm not saying 4 OF GLITTERING WISH HUEHUE. 2-3 copies seems fine. Especially if you aren't running blue for gifts. Edit: That's why I went with the toolbox option. There's not really a AH HA I WIN card in Modern. I was just curious why card that screams to be broken has little to no play or coverage. That's the problem though, if you're only running 2-3 Wishes then it's not worth devoting 5 sideboard slots. You're basically playing a 70-card list in exchange for utility cards that you won't often draw, and will cost you 2 extra mana when you do draw them. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On May 15 2013 14:06 Shotcoder wrote: It essentially lets you get the card you need now, Game 1. What if you dont draw Verdict? What if you need to answer an Oring or detention Sphere? I'm not saying 4 OF GLITTERING WISH HUEHUE. 2-3 copies seems fine. Especially if you aren't running blue for gifts. Edit: That's why I went with the toolbox option. There's not really a AH HA I WIN card in Modern. I was just curious why card that screams to be broken has little to no play or coverage. Which is why that card is not so good, why are you essentially diluting the deck? This isnt the same thing as say Pod or GSZ toolbox. Even the Pod-like lists eventually stream line their card choices. Like figure out whats good and whats not, and play those cards. You arent fetching for creatures where they pull double duty. Basically utility spells are not the same as utility creatures. | ||
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Being restricted to multicolour cards is also a hindrance because beings stuck in GW just to play Glittering Wish means there are some cards that are now off-limits unless you really stretch your mana base (and then Thalia Hatebeats wrecks your face while you take a lot of splash damage from Tron-hate). That is not to say that Glittering Wish can not be done. There are several mid-range Jund decks that splash White to play Glittering Wish along with a suite of good cards that has put up results in Dailies and PTQs. (Fiery Justice and Kavu Predator have a cute synergy, Dreadbore for a pseudo-mainboard Planeswalker removal, Slaughter Games and Rakdos Charm for combo hate, Fulminator Mage for derailing Tron, Obezedat and Sorin for win cons in certain matchups) But unless more powerful multicolour spells get printed or they print the original Wishes (Cunning, Burning, Living, etc.) it's probably not worth it to use them. I mean, consider the most powerful cheap answer spells in Modern currently. Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Thoughtseize, Go for the Throat, Spell Snare, etc. They're all mono colour spells. If you need answers, multicolour is not the way to do (with the exception of Lightning Helix and Abrupt Decay, at this point wouldn't you just rather have them mainboard rather then trying to wish for them?). | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
Back onto standard discussion, I have been toying with junk. Since it's probably my favorite color combination(BW is but Junk just sounds cool). THis is what I think I'm going to start with. Junk Midrange + Show Spoiler + 4 Blood Artist 4 Cartel Aristocrat 4 Doomed Traveler 2 Obzedat, Ghost Council 2 Skirsdag High Priest 3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped 3 Voice of Resurgence 3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad 1 Abrupt Decay 3 Tragic Slip 2 Putrefy 1 Ready // Willing 4 Lingering Souls 4 Overgrown Tomb 3 Woodland Cemetery 1 Gavony Township 4 Godless Shrine 4 Isolated Chapel 1 Vault of the Archangel 3 Sunpetal Grove 4 Temple Garden SB: 4 Sin Collector SB: 2 Ground Seal SB: 2 Rest in Peace SB: 1 Abrupt Decay SB: 2 Devour Flesh SB: 2 Ray of Revelation SB: 2 Appetite for Brains Also a fun brew deck + Show Spoiler + 4 Bloodthrone Vampire 4 Blood Artist 2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa 3 Bloodline Keeper 4 Tithe Drinker 4 Vampire Nighthawk 3 Tragic Slip 4 Lingering Souls 3 Orzhov Charm 2 Devour Flesh 3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad 4 Plains 10 Swamp 4 Godless Shrine 4 Isolated Chapel 2 Vault of the Archangel | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
On May 15 2013 14:59 Judicator wrote: Which is why that card is not so good, why are you essentially diluting the deck? This isnt the same thing as say Pod or GSZ toolbox. Even the Pod-like lists eventually stream line their card choices. Like figure out whats good and whats not, and play those cards. You arent fetching for creatures where they pull double duty. Basically utility spells are not the same as utility creatures. Playing wishes general does the exact OPPOSITE of diluting your deck as it lets you run 7 copies of cards. I don't think there is any deck that really needs this right now though. But just writing off wish and saying "why not just play what you are tutoring for" is just dumb and is not a valid argument against wish. The main flaws of wishes are that is slows you down and decreases sideboard options. Game 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon is pretty much free game 1 win vs a lot of decks but there aren't enough cards like this. Teferi's Moat is also a strong hoser but I can't think of any others of the top of my head. Also, for that junk midrange deck I would cut the purtrefys and ready//willing for avacyn pilgrims. Also there should be 4 voice. No reason to have 3. Also AT LEAST 2 gavony but probably 3 and just cut vault. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On May 17 2013 04:36 DEN1ED wrote: Playing wishes general does the exact OPPOSITE of diluting your deck as it lets you run 7 copies of cards. I don't think there is any deck that really needs this right now though. But just writing off wish and saying "why not just play what you are tutoring for" is just dumb and is not a valid argument against wish. The main flaws of wishes are that is slows you down and decreases sideboard options. Game 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon is pretty much free game 1 win vs a lot of decks but there aren't enough cards like this. Teferi's Moat is also a strong hoser but I can't think of any others of the top of my head. Also, for that junk midrange deck I would cut the purtrefys and ready//willing for avacyn pilgrims. Also there should be 4 voice. No reason to have 3. Also AT LEAST 2 gavony but probably 3 and just cut vault. 7 copies huh? There's a fallacy, the 2nd copy will never be as good as the first and you know that. So how are you not diluting your deck with multiple copies of Wishes? | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
I'm not saying wish is amazing, but I don't think you should just rule it out so easily. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
In either case, the power of that card is tied to the card its fetching, and like others have said, there aren't any that justifies such a change in deck construction. Edit: I am not ruling it out so easily, I actually did card search from top 8 decks to see if there are any powerful multicolored cards to justify using Wish. | ||
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Wishes are powerful because of the Wishboard, and I don't see how you can really make a powerful multicolour Wishboard in Modern right now when Glittering Wish is already fairly colour restrictive. It's not like a Burning Wish colour splash in 4CC Loam for example where you wish for an answer then completely take over the board state. Glittering Wish can't do that for you. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
To put it another way, when you evaluate Wish in a vacuum, it seems sweet and Shotcoder wasn't wrong in thinking that Wish functions like Snapcaster in a way where it can be any instant/sorcery spell as long as the original was in the graveyard (hurray for flexibility). The problem is what Cel.erity brought up, it's problematic in deck construction, and multiple copies run into even more issues. At some point flexibility causes more problems than it solves. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On May 17 2013 08:45 Judicator wrote: MoonBear's post is why I originally emphasized that the power level of the card being Wished for needs to be game-breaking. Marginal stuff doesn't cut it with effects like this. To put it another way, when you evaluate Wish in a vacuum, it seems sweet and Shotcoder wasn't wrong in thinking that Wish functions like Snapcaster in a way where it can be any instant/sorcery spell as long as the original was in the graveyard (hurray for flexibility). The problem is what Cel.erity brought up, it's problematic in deck construction, and multiple copies run into even more issues. At some point flexibility causes more problems than it solves. Which is what I realized. Diluting the deck to have options might lose you games more than it would helping you hose them and why I conceded to your argument. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
I had the feeling that it was the case, but couldn't really be sure. Until I talked with some legacy players (aka getting the idea quashed pretty quickly) and they pointed out these problems with Wishing for non-powerful effects. Glad we had the discussion though. | ||
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Iranon
United States983 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
Not really sloppy since casual is casual, since you might not even have a sideboard nor would you have unlimited cards. | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
On May 17 2013 13:36 Judicator wrote: I ran into your situation except in Legacy when I was playing around with combo decks that used Wish, aka instead of finding the win-con, find a utility spell. The whole deal got awkward, but I couldn't draw any definitive conclusions since I am wholly unfamiliar with Legacy as a format nor am I comfortable building/using sideboards in that format. I had the feeling that it was the case, but couldn't really be sure. Until I talked with some legacy players (aka getting the idea quashed pretty quickly) and they pointed out these problems with Wishing for non-powerful effects. Glad we had the discussion though. I like tossing around ideas on here. I play in a very inbred metagame where I play(Legacy is even more so) and ideas that would seem awesome there might not translate well. We all have our quirks in this thread and it's good to hear from all of you. | ||
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