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On February 23 2013 03:36 el_dawg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 03:09 JingleHell wrote:On February 23 2013 03:01 Sn0_Man wrote:Search gatherer for blue 3-drops  Syncopate is likely better than spell rupture but it is still awkward. On February 23 2013 02:42 JingleHell wrote:
And please, play Psychic Spiral. Tap 3 for Duskmantle in response. GG. Thats... Not how it works? Oh, wait, missed the "Target Player". Right. Well, Psychic Spiral would be a problem for me, guess that's another reason to have various counter spells on hand. Syncopate would be cute for that one, to be sure. Only got one of it, might pick up spares and stick them in, stick the ruptures into SB for decks I need more control against. At least, until and unless I put together a better SB. By the way, does Tragic Slip seem awkward in this deck to you, too? It seems vaguely inconvenient, unless I chump first. Also, even if it did work that way, why would a deck designed to control the game not be able to deal with a 2/2 and then cast a spell suicidally? If you are getting psychic spiraled, chances are your opponent has plenty of land in play, multiple answers in hand and that the game has actually been over for several turns. Your best option is not to get to that point in the first place. I think you were making good progress on the GR agro list and really starting to evaluate cards and matchups better. I would recommend sticking with that for a bit.
As much as I still want to make something like that work, I'm also thinking a deck doing something slightly outside the normal meta might give me a better shot against the rather insane decks I see at the shop at this point.
And frankly, a weak aggro deck was one of the decks I was tired of losing with when I started thinking about Jund. Swapping color bases made it slightly less weak, but still not feeling like I'm in a lot of games.
At least if I do something wonky, I might have the fun of "actually playing".
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On February 23 2013 03:42 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2013 03:36 el_dawg wrote:On February 23 2013 03:09 JingleHell wrote:On February 23 2013 03:01 Sn0_Man wrote:Search gatherer for blue 3-drops Syncopate is likely better than spell rupture but it is still awkward. On February 23 2013 02:42 JingleHell wrote:
And please, play Psychic Spiral. Tap 3 for Duskmantle in response. GG. Thats... Not how it works? Oh, wait, missed the "Target Player". Right. Well, Psychic Spiral would be a problem for me, guess that's another reason to have various counter spells on hand. Syncopate would be cute for that one, to be sure. Only got one of it, might pick up spares and stick them in, stick the ruptures into SB for decks I need more control against. At least, until and unless I put together a better SB. By the way, does Tragic Slip seem awkward in this deck to you, too? It seems vaguely inconvenient, unless I chump first. Also, even if it did work that way, why would a deck designed to control the game not be able to deal with a 2/2 and then cast a spell suicidally? If you are getting psychic spiraled, chances are your opponent has plenty of land in play, multiple answers in hand and that the game has actually been over for several turns. Your best option is not to get to that point in the first place. I think you were making good progress on the GR agro list and really starting to evaluate cards and matchups better. I would recommend sticking with that for a bit. As much as I still want to make something like that work, I'm also thinking a deck doing something slightly outside the normal meta might give me a better shot against the rather insane decks I see at the shop at this point. And frankly, a weak aggro deck was one of the decks I was tired of losing with when I started thinking about Jund. Swapping color bases made it slightly less weak, but still not feeling like I'm in a lot of games. At least if I do something wonky, I might have the fun of "actually playing".
That's legit, the main goal of playing should be having fun. It just seems like you are going to go through the trouble of putting together a new deck only to find out it doesn't work as well together as you expected. Rogue/ under the radar decks can be very effective (like the "eggs" deck that won the recent modern PT), but they need to be focused and attack the format in a unique way. For example, your deck both attacks and mills. In addition, there are already multiple decks that feature milling or graveyard use as a win condition, so people will be ready for it.
Gimme a couple minutes and I'll put together a GR list you might like better than your current one.
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"There's no way a purely aggro Dimir deck will do what I want..."
What exactly is it that you want? There are a lot of ways to build an aggressive UBx deck in Standard right now, adding a random mill component isn't going to help.
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On February 23 2013 04:19 MCMcEmcee wrote:
"There's no way a purely aggro Dimir deck will do what I want..."
What exactly is it that you want? There are a lot of ways to build an aggressive UBx deck in Standard right now, adding a random mill component isn't going to help.
Well, I should have been more clear: I want to feel like I actually participated in the game. Aggro UB isn't going to be better than RB or GR, with what I have available. And I lose horribly playing those.
There's no physical way for me to do a three color deck, since my primary fixing options now are gates, especially where aggro is concerned.
The random mill component gives me a way to do some extra damage with evasive creatures, and if they wipe, gives me a way to force them to snap the wipe, or even waste it, and gives me a followup in the form of Consuming Aberration. If I get the Selhoff Occultists too, it even makes Bonfire and Verdict suicidal T3 or later. Well, T4 or later, I guess. Since I'd need to activate Guildmage. It's not a ton of extra damage, but 3-4 for wiping me, on top of what's been done, followed by a 10+ Aberration, well, it seems scary.
And here's just another thought. I KNOW MY FUCKING OPTIONS SUCK
It gets old hearing it. I either do something marginally creative and not amazing, or I do something uncreative and not amazing. My third option is to not fucking play, which, incidentally, is the advice a lot of you manage to give newbies, whether that was the intended message or not.
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Edit: Woah, chill out. One of the hardest things to do in magic is to evaluate cards and decks. This is even harder, and almost impossible for a new player. Your comments on milling as "additional damage" show that you really need more experience. I don't have time to discuss the theory of milling (basically it's only good if you can benefit incrementally from it, such as milling yourself for flashback cards, or if you are guaranteed to mill them entirely, such as with a giant psychic spiral or drownyards once the game is locked down). I'm sure there has been a similar discussion (search for mill in this thread) since milling is a favorite of new players but is often mis-underdstood.
Ok, here is what I came up with. This deck should be more competitive than the last one you linked and fun as well (also relatively cheap to build). You will want to add 21 lands, and a couple cards to the sideboard. Depending on your experience with it, you can tune the numbers up and down, just remember to keep the curve low and aggressive.
3 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Archwing Dragon
4 Searing Spear
1 Traitorous Blood
1 Stonewright
1 Hellraiser Goblin
2 Act of Treason
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Experiment One
2 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
2 Stromkirk Noble
1 Gruul Charm
2 Brimstone Volley
4 Flinthoof Boar
2 Lightning Mauler
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Pyreheart Wolf
Sideboard
4 Skullcrack
4 Reckless Waif
4 Volcanic Strength
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@Jingle I tend to just brew random decks when I don't want to spend money. Generally the goal is less to win and more to "achieve" somthing. For example, my latest theory is based around that 0/1 evolve for 1UU that steals their creatures. Combined with Agoraphobia. (make their creature's power 0 by putting agoraphobia on it, then steal it, then return agoraphobia to your hand. Rinse, repeat).
Its terrible, but it relies on a cheap rare and a bunch of silly commons so I don't really mind. Its mono blue (although you can build it lots of different colours if you want) so the mana base is affordable. And its hilarious to play although you generally lose to any deck with a real plan.
Otherwise, I recommend either sticking to limited or playing constructed with people who will form a "gentleman's agreement" with you to keep the decks reasonable. I've never been a fan of FNM, but that's just me. I'm sorry if you feel like we are telling you not to play or whatever. What I would say is, try to play vs people who are under similar constraints to yourself, rather than against people who you know start with an advantage based on the value of their collection.
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On February 23 2013 04:42 Sn0_Man wrote:
@Jingle I tend to just brew random decks when I don't want to spend money. Generally the goal is less to win and more to "achieve" somthing. For example, my latest theory is based around that 0/1 evolve for 1UU that steals their creatures. Combined with Agoraphobia. (make their creature's power 0 by putting agoraphobia on it, then steal it, then return agoraphobia to your hand. Rinse, repeat).
Its terrible, but it relies on a cheap rare and a bunch of silly commons so I don't really mind. Its mono blue (although you can build it lots of different colours if you want) so the mana base is affordable. And its hilarious to play although you generally lose to any deck with a real plan.
Otherwise, I recommend either sticking to limited or playing constructed with people who will form a "gentleman's agreement" with you to keep the decks reasonable. I've never been a fan of FNM, but that's just me. I'm sorry if you feel like we are telling you not to play or whatever. What I would say is, try to play vs people who are under similar constraints to yourself, rather than against people who you know start with an advantage based on the value of their collection.
Actually, that wasn't really directed at you personally. It was directed at specific other people, who feel the need to tell me what to go spend my money on, in totally different colors than the list they theoretically responded to a question about, or people who seem compelled to give arbitrary criticism without the benefit of granting me even a glimmer of insight into the breadth of their wisdom, which compelled the response.
You, at least, were saying why you'd do things differently, and actually discussing the same general deck.
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Chill out Jingle,
MC was trying to point out something in deck building if you just calm down and think about it. Will your deck last long enough for the mill to matter? If not, then there's no point in including it. Trying to get small advantages there an here isn't the point of faster decks, you just want them dead before their plan kicks in and kicks in your head. So the figure out what you want to do with Dimir deck, then build around that concept. Add in other lines if it complements what you are trying to do in the first place. Throwing in random mill for the sake of mill isn't the right way.
Also, keep in mind that you will probably won't do well your first Gameday, so just take it as a learning exercise.
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On February 23 2013 05:00 Judicator wrote:
Chill out Jingle,
MC was trying to point out something in deck building if you just calm down and think about it. Will your deck last long enough for the mill to matter? If not, then there's no point in including it. Trying to get small advantages there an here isn't the point of faster decks, you just want them dead before their plan kicks in and kicks in your head. So the figure out what you want to do with Dimir deck, then build around that concept. Add in other lines if it complements what you are trying to do in the first place. Throwing in random mill for the sake of mill isn't the right way.
Also, keep in mind that you will probably won't do well your first Gameday, so just take it as a learning exercise.
I'm not expecting to do well. I just want to do better than last time I played standard. Not too unreasonable a goal, I'd hope. I also intend to have fun, and doing something a little screwy and losing is likely to be more fun than doing something straightforward, badly, and losing.
The deck does actually have a point. Duskmantle Guildmage converts mill to damage, and forces out removal or board wipe early, unless they're just willing to die. If they start clearing out my early board to shut down that line, the Aberration comes out for a pile of damage.
The big weakness is aggro, which is why there's some counters, and the SB includes some spot removal options. I'm sure it's not ideal, but that's why I asked for suggestions on it. Suggestions aren't "that sucks".
And him "trying to point something out" doesn't come off like an explanation. Pro tip on criticism: if you don't explain it, it's not constructive. He didn't. You did. Notice a totally different response? You, I listen to.
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I think his comments were directed at me too. I'd be more offended (since I was honestly trying to help and Jingle showed interest in a RG list 2 pages ago), but this isn't the first time new players have reacted this way to suggestions (usually regarding milling). I'll just leave my edit from above here in case it was missed.
Edit: Woah, chill out. One of the hardest things to do in magic is to evaluate cards and decks. This is even harder, and almost impossible for a new player. Your comments on milling as "additional damage" show that you really need more experience. I don't have time to discuss the theory of milling (basically it's only good if you can benefit incrementally from it, such as milling yourself for flashback cards, or if you are guaranteed to mill them entirely, such as with a giant psychic spiral or drownyards once the game is locked down). I'm sure there has been a similar discussion (search for mill in this thread) since milling is a favorite of new players but is often mis-underdstood.
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On February 23 2013 05:16 el_dawg wrote:
I think his comments were directed at me too. I'd be more offended (since I was honestly trying to help), but this isn't the first time new players have reacted this way to suggestions (usually regarding milling). I'll just leave my edit from above here in case it was missed.
Edit: Woah, chill out. One of the hardest things to do in magic is to evaluate cards and decks. This is even harder, and almost impossible for a new player. Your comments on milling as "additional damage" show that you really need more experience. I don't have time to discuss the theory of milling (basically it's only good if you can benefit incrementally from it, such as milling yourself for flashback cards, or if you are guaranteed to mill them entirely, such as with a giant psychic spiral or drownyards once the game is locked down). I'm sure there has been a similar discussion (search for mill in this thread) since milling is a favorite of new players but is often mis-underdstood.
Yes, you too. In this case, I'm looking at mill as "additional damage" because of Duskmantle Guildmage, who literally converts cards going into the graveyard into damage.
{1}{U}{B}: Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere this turn, that player loses 1 life.
That + Paranoid Delusions is a primary concept of this deck. Thus all the evasive creatures.
The inevitable "weak to removal/board wipe" response (since it overall could be if that was the only plan), is why I have the Consuming Aberration. They should have somewhere in the 10+ number of cards in the graveyard by the time they commit big stuff like a Bonfire or Verdict to it, which makes for one badass 5 drop.
I'm aware there's some specific weaknesses, but it looks like fun, the mill isn't intended to mill them out completely, and I have all but (literally) $2-3 of the cards, not counting the drownyards, making it a cheap option.
I've already explained why I don't particularly want to play a GR or RB deck tomorrow, and I'd say "won't have fun" is a pretty legitimate reason not to do it, where at least with this, I'll be making a plan come together, even if it doesn't work out, that revolves around a concept more complicated than "Look at little Timmy trying to play with the big boys". I'd rather be little Johnny trying to play with the big boys.
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Final list I'll be running at FNM tonight...
+ Show Spoiler +
MB
CREATURES
4 Augur of Bolas
3 Restoration Angel
2 Snapcaster Mage
INSTANTS
4 Azorius Charm
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Devour Flesh
2 Dissipate
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Think Twice
1 Ultimate Price
SORCERIES
2 Planar Cleansing
4 Supreme Verdict
PLANESWALKERS
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
LANDS
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Plains
2 Watery Grave
and
SB
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Jace, Memory Adept
4 Terminus
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I'm still debating between BR or BW zombies and Aristocrats for FNM
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Korea (South)922 Posts
On February 23 2013 05:28 Risen wrote:Final list I'll be running at FNM tonight... + Show Spoiler +
MB
CREATURES
4 Augur of Bolas
3 Restoration Angel
2 Snapcaster Mage
INSTANTS
4 Azorius Charm
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Devour Flesh
2 Dissipate
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Think Twice
1 Ultimate Price
SORCERIES
2 Planar Cleansing
4 Supreme Verdict
PLANESWALKERS
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
LANDS
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Godless Shrine
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Plains
2 Watery Grave
and
SB
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Jace, Memory Adept
4 Terminus
Boo! Architect Jace makes me sad. You know a planeswalker is questionable if people are considering things like Amass the Components over it. (also it would sometimes be not a complete card if you're playing planar cleansing) Perhaps putting in additional card draw or spot removal over it?
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He's only there as an anti-agro tool that isn't completely dead otherwise. He also eats attacks which is nice.
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Jace-4 is fine against aggro, and not bad when you're on the draw. Amass will never do much, Divination's under it and Sphinx's is over it so Amass is just kind of left out.
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Planar Cleansing over Terminus is a very interesting idea, and I mean "interesting" in the kindest possible way. I'd try it myself, but since I run Detention Spheres and seven planeswalkers in my Esper, it probably wouldn't be very smart of me 
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Top 8 split. Finished undefeated. Ezez
Edit:
On February 23 2013 09:16 Salivanth wrote:Planar Cleansing over Terminus is a very interesting idea, and I mean "interesting" in the kindest possible way. I'd try it myself, but since I run Detention Spheres and seven planeswalkers in my Esper, it probably wouldn't be very smart of me
Detention sphere hits garruk or his tokens. Planar cleansing hits both. Both land on T6 after a T5 garruk.
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Hmm, WMCQ 10 minutes away this year. I guess I need to make a standard deck. Getting 9th last year still stings. I have no clue on the current standard format though other than watching the PT. I love Sam Black decks but playing the winning deck seems kinda lame. On the other hand, playing sphinx's revelations seems even more lame.
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standard is 3-4 color Good Stuff, and will continue to be until lands cycle out of standard. Fixing really is just that good.
I'm playing EDH until the shift. Jhiora OP!
Speaking of EDH, today I went Eye of the Storm into Epic Experiment into A Lot Of Things into Warp World into Omniscience into Scrambleverse (keeping the Omniscience). Not even kidding.
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EPT
