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JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-22 00:31:37
February 22 2013 00:26 GMT
#6201
On February 22 2013 09:19 Trotske wrote:
So being new to Mtg I have bought a few booster packs and have manged to pull a few cards worth something, I feel that I can't really make a deck around these few cards and wanted to get an opinion on trading them away for quite a few decent cards that might enable me to make a decent deck without spending a lot of my money or just keeping them until later when I will have more cards after some drafts or something.

The cards in question are
Boros reckoner
Master biomancer
Godless shrine
Watery Grave


Under no circumstances should you trade the lands, IMO, see my difficulties putting together a good deck due to poor mana base. You NEED those lands for competitive decks.

The Reckoner is almost worth keeping, if nothing else he's been rocketing up so fast he might be worth more in a week after Games day or whenever the next set of big events is. Even with the notion of "Need cards to play", that one is one you need to play.

And mind you, that's coming from a similar point of view. Cards are good, yes. But unless you're trading carefully, for good cards, with a plan, it's a waste of good cards. Take it from a guy who's regretting the same mistake. "OK" cards don't let you play standard effectively. It's a trap it's easy to walk into.

I'm just a few weeks ahead of you on this particular learning curve, I think, or maybe just had absurd luck on my drafts rocket me forward on it. But take it from another newbie who's regretting some careless trades, there's only a minimal difference between a mediocre deck and a bad deck. And it's not worth trading cards you'll need soon for cards you won't need any more soon.

Literally, if you go back a couple of weeks in this thread, you can see how violently I've changed my tune. A "decent" deck is a competitive deck, and an "almost decent" deck is a bad deck. I hate that it's the case, but a lot of the people you'll play standard against are practicing for tournaments and shit, or getting points to go to big events. They aren't dicking around.
Trotske
Profile Joined August 2010
410 Posts
February 22 2013 00:32 GMT
#6202
On February 22 2013 09:26 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 09:19 Trotske wrote:
So being new to Mtg I have bought a few booster packs and have manged to pull a few cards worth something, I feel that I can't really make a deck around these few cards and wanted to get an opinion on trading them away for quite a few decent cards that might enable me to make a decent deck without spending a lot of my money or just keeping them until later when I will have more cards after some drafts or something.

The cards in question are
Boros reckoner
Master biomancer
Godless shrine
Watery Grave


Under no circumstances should you trade the lands, IMO, see my difficulties putting together a good deck due to poor mana base. You NEED those lands for competitive decks.

The Reckoner is almost worth keeping, if nothing else he's been rocketing up so fast he might be worth more in a week after Games day or whenever the next set of big events is. Even with the notion of "Need cards to play", that one is one you need to play.

And mind you, that's coming from a similar point of view. Cards are good, yes. But unless you're trading carefully, for good cards, with a plan, it's a waste of good cards. Take it from a guy who's regretting the same mistake. "OK" cards don't let you play standard effectively. It's a trap it's easy to walk into.

I'm just a few weeks ahead of you on this particular learning curve, I think, or maybe just had absurd luck on my drafts rocket me forward on it. But take it from another newbie who's regretting some careless trades, there's only a minimal difference between a mediocre deck and a bad deck. And it's not worth trading cards you'll need soon for cards you won't need any more soon.


Thanks My thought about the shocklands is that I might try to trade them for the type that I want to build instead of for a lot of pretty good cards. Thanks for the input I think I will keep the boros but trade the biomancer because I don't really plan to play Green/blue. Do you know a good way to evaluate the value of cards ?
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
February 22 2013 00:38 GMT
#6203
On February 22 2013 09:32 Trotske wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 09:26 JingleHell wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:19 Trotske wrote:
So being new to Mtg I have bought a few booster packs and have manged to pull a few cards worth something, I feel that I can't really make a deck around these few cards and wanted to get an opinion on trading them away for quite a few decent cards that might enable me to make a decent deck without spending a lot of my money or just keeping them until later when I will have more cards after some drafts or something.

The cards in question are
Boros reckoner
Master biomancer
Godless shrine
Watery Grave


Under no circumstances should you trade the lands, IMO, see my difficulties putting together a good deck due to poor mana base. You NEED those lands for competitive decks.

The Reckoner is almost worth keeping, if nothing else he's been rocketing up so fast he might be worth more in a week after Games day or whenever the next set of big events is. Even with the notion of "Need cards to play", that one is one you need to play.

And mind you, that's coming from a similar point of view. Cards are good, yes. But unless you're trading carefully, for good cards, with a plan, it's a waste of good cards. Take it from a guy who's regretting the same mistake. "OK" cards don't let you play standard effectively. It's a trap it's easy to walk into.

I'm just a few weeks ahead of you on this particular learning curve, I think, or maybe just had absurd luck on my drafts rocket me forward on it. But take it from another newbie who's regretting some careless trades, there's only a minimal difference between a mediocre deck and a bad deck. And it's not worth trading cards you'll need soon for cards you won't need any more soon.


Thanks My thought about the shocklands is that I might try to trade them for the type that I want to build instead of for a lot of pretty good cards. Thanks for the input I think I will keep the boros but trade the biomancer because I don't really plan to play Green/blue. Do you know a good way to evaluate the value of cards ?


starcitygames.com for the US, or ask local players where they price things. If someone's talking trades, it's NOT rude to stop and look up a value they're telling you. Maybe if you know them, and have traded with them before, but in general, it's common sense, especially if you're new and talking about cards in excess of ~$5.

If you can even money trade the shocks for the ones you know you want, sure, go for it. Just make sure you've seen some of the big decks played before you start locking yourself in that way.
Trotske
Profile Joined August 2010
410 Posts
February 22 2013 00:41 GMT
#6204
On February 22 2013 09:38 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 09:32 Trotske wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:26 JingleHell wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:19 Trotske wrote:
So being new to Mtg I have bought a few booster packs and have manged to pull a few cards worth something, I feel that I can't really make a deck around these few cards and wanted to get an opinion on trading them away for quite a few decent cards that might enable me to make a decent deck without spending a lot of my money or just keeping them until later when I will have more cards after some drafts or something.

The cards in question are
Boros reckoner
Master biomancer
Godless shrine
Watery Grave


Under no circumstances should you trade the lands, IMO, see my difficulties putting together a good deck due to poor mana base. You NEED those lands for competitive decks.

The Reckoner is almost worth keeping, if nothing else he's been rocketing up so fast he might be worth more in a week after Games day or whenever the next set of big events is. Even with the notion of "Need cards to play", that one is one you need to play.

And mind you, that's coming from a similar point of view. Cards are good, yes. But unless you're trading carefully, for good cards, with a plan, it's a waste of good cards. Take it from a guy who's regretting the same mistake. "OK" cards don't let you play standard effectively. It's a trap it's easy to walk into.

I'm just a few weeks ahead of you on this particular learning curve, I think, or maybe just had absurd luck on my drafts rocket me forward on it. But take it from another newbie who's regretting some careless trades, there's only a minimal difference between a mediocre deck and a bad deck. And it's not worth trading cards you'll need soon for cards you won't need any more soon.


Thanks My thought about the shocklands is that I might try to trade them for the type that I want to build instead of for a lot of pretty good cards. Thanks for the input I think I will keep the boros but trade the biomancer because I don't really plan to play Green/blue. Do you know a good way to evaluate the value of cards ?


starcitygames.com for the US, or ask local players where they price things. If someone's talking trades, it's NOT rude to stop and look up a value they're telling you. Maybe if you know them, and have traded with them before, but in general, it's common sense, especially if you're new and talking about cards in excess of ~$5.

If you can even money trade the shocks for the ones you know you want, sure, go for it. Just make sure you've seen some of the big decks played before you start locking yourself in that way.



are there like vods of pros playing online somewhere? I really I have no idea where to even start Ive only really watched some drafts.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
February 22 2013 00:43 GMT
#6205
On February 22 2013 09:41 Trotske wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 09:38 JingleHell wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:32 Trotske wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:26 JingleHell wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:19 Trotske wrote:
So being new to Mtg I have bought a few booster packs and have manged to pull a few cards worth something, I feel that I can't really make a deck around these few cards and wanted to get an opinion on trading them away for quite a few decent cards that might enable me to make a decent deck without spending a lot of my money or just keeping them until later when I will have more cards after some drafts or something.

The cards in question are
Boros reckoner
Master biomancer
Godless shrine
Watery Grave


Under no circumstances should you trade the lands, IMO, see my difficulties putting together a good deck due to poor mana base. You NEED those lands for competitive decks.

The Reckoner is almost worth keeping, if nothing else he's been rocketing up so fast he might be worth more in a week after Games day or whenever the next set of big events is. Even with the notion of "Need cards to play", that one is one you need to play.

And mind you, that's coming from a similar point of view. Cards are good, yes. But unless you're trading carefully, for good cards, with a plan, it's a waste of good cards. Take it from a guy who's regretting the same mistake. "OK" cards don't let you play standard effectively. It's a trap it's easy to walk into.

I'm just a few weeks ahead of you on this particular learning curve, I think, or maybe just had absurd luck on my drafts rocket me forward on it. But take it from another newbie who's regretting some careless trades, there's only a minimal difference between a mediocre deck and a bad deck. And it's not worth trading cards you'll need soon for cards you won't need any more soon.


Thanks My thought about the shocklands is that I might try to trade them for the type that I want to build instead of for a lot of pretty good cards. Thanks for the input I think I will keep the boros but trade the biomancer because I don't really plan to play Green/blue. Do you know a good way to evaluate the value of cards ?


starcitygames.com for the US, or ask local players where they price things. If someone's talking trades, it's NOT rude to stop and look up a value they're telling you. Maybe if you know them, and have traded with them before, but in general, it's common sense, especially if you're new and talking about cards in excess of ~$5.

If you can even money trade the shocks for the ones you know you want, sure, go for it. Just make sure you've seen some of the big decks played before you start locking yourself in that way.



are there like vods of pros playing online somewhere? I really I have no idea where to even start Ive only really watched some drafts.


Youtube MTG Pro Tour or Grand Prix 2012 and 2013. Not guaranteed to help. Also just ask around your shop, see if you can play against stuff like Esper control, or Jund Midrange, or monored.. See HOW they thrash you.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-22 00:55:53
February 22 2013 00:48 GMT
#6206
The shocklands aren't probably going to worth that much after DGM since the basic lands you had in the boosters are now replaced with nonbasics, so therefore there is a greater chance for those shocks to be opened.

Edit:

Also, lands can be traded if you know what you are playing. I have moved almost all my non-esper lands because there hasn't been a need for me to keep them outside of EDH/Commander. Typically though, I trade them 1 for 1 and I keep the lands that I estimate will be in high demand closely. Like I played Esper/UB almost entirely in the past standard, but kept a play set of Copperline Gorges and Blackcleave Cliffs for no other reasons that friends might need to borrow them.

So I am keeping Sacred Foundries and to some lesser extent Breeding Pools while trading most of the other parts away for various reasons. It all about figuring out what you plan on playing, and that is why I spend a lot of time testing decks rather than actually building them because that gives me an idea on what TYPE of deck I want to play so I don't have to dump money on lands.
Get it by your hands...
Trotske
Profile Joined August 2010
410 Posts
February 22 2013 00:49 GMT
#6207
On February 22 2013 09:43 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 09:41 Trotske wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:38 JingleHell wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:32 Trotske wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:26 JingleHell wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:19 Trotske wrote:
So being new to Mtg I have bought a few booster packs and have manged to pull a few cards worth something, I feel that I can't really make a deck around these few cards and wanted to get an opinion on trading them away for quite a few decent cards that might enable me to make a decent deck without spending a lot of my money or just keeping them until later when I will have more cards after some drafts or something.

The cards in question are
Boros reckoner
Master biomancer
Godless shrine
Watery Grave


Under no circumstances should you trade the lands, IMO, see my difficulties putting together a good deck due to poor mana base. You NEED those lands for competitive decks.

The Reckoner is almost worth keeping, if nothing else he's been rocketing up so fast he might be worth more in a week after Games day or whenever the next set of big events is. Even with the notion of "Need cards to play", that one is one you need to play.

And mind you, that's coming from a similar point of view. Cards are good, yes. But unless you're trading carefully, for good cards, with a plan, it's a waste of good cards. Take it from a guy who's regretting the same mistake. "OK" cards don't let you play standard effectively. It's a trap it's easy to walk into.

I'm just a few weeks ahead of you on this particular learning curve, I think, or maybe just had absurd luck on my drafts rocket me forward on it. But take it from another newbie who's regretting some careless trades, there's only a minimal difference between a mediocre deck and a bad deck. And it's not worth trading cards you'll need soon for cards you won't need any more soon.


Thanks My thought about the shocklands is that I might try to trade them for the type that I want to build instead of for a lot of pretty good cards. Thanks for the input I think I will keep the boros but trade the biomancer because I don't really plan to play Green/blue. Do you know a good way to evaluate the value of cards ?


starcitygames.com for the US, or ask local players where they price things. If someone's talking trades, it's NOT rude to stop and look up a value they're telling you. Maybe if you know them, and have traded with them before, but in general, it's common sense, especially if you're new and talking about cards in excess of ~$5.

If you can even money trade the shocks for the ones you know you want, sure, go for it. Just make sure you've seen some of the big decks played before you start locking yourself in that way.



are there like vods of pros playing online somewhere? I really I have no idea where to even start Ive only really watched some drafts.


Youtube MTG Pro Tour or Grand Prix 2012 and 2013. Not guaranteed to help. Also just ask around your shop, see if you can play against stuff like Esper control, or Jund Midrange, or monored.. See HOW they thrash you.


Thanks
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
February 22 2013 00:50 GMT
#6208
On February 22 2013 09:48 Judicator wrote:
The shocklands aren't probably going to worth that much after DGM since the basic lands you had in the boosters are now replaced with nonbasics, so therefore there is a greater chance for those shocks to be opened.


Wait, whaaa? That's awesome. For me.
abominare
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1216 Posts
February 22 2013 00:52 GMT
#6209
On February 22 2013 09:26 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 09:19 Trotske wrote:
So being new to Mtg I have bought a few booster packs and have manged to pull a few cards worth something, I feel that I can't really make a deck around these few cards and wanted to get an opinion on trading them away for quite a few decent cards that might enable me to make a decent deck without spending a lot of my money or just keeping them until later when I will have more cards after some drafts or something.

The cards in question are
Boros reckoner
Master biomancer
Godless shrine
Watery Grave


Under no circumstances should you trade the lands, IMO, see my difficulties putting together a good deck due to poor mana base. You NEED those lands for competitive decks.

The Reckoner is almost worth keeping, if nothing else he's been rocketing up so fast he might be worth more in a week after Games day or whenever the next set of big events is. Even with the notion of "Need cards to play", that one is one you need to play.

And mind you, that's coming from a similar point of view. Cards are good, yes. But unless you're trading carefully, for good cards, with a plan, it's a waste of good cards. Take it from a guy who's regretting the same mistake. "OK" cards don't let you play standard effectively. It's a trap it's easy to walk into.

I'm just a few weeks ahead of you on this particular learning curve, I think, or maybe just had absurd luck on my drafts rocket me forward on it. But take it from another newbie who's regretting some careless trades, there's only a minimal difference between a mediocre deck and a bad deck. And it's not worth trading cards you'll need soon for cards you won't need any more soon.

Literally, if you go back a couple of weeks in this thread, you can see how violently I've changed my tune. A "decent" deck is a competitive deck, and an "almost decent" deck is a bad deck. I hate that it's the case, but a lot of the people you'll play standard against are practicing for tournaments and shit, or getting points to go to big events. They aren't dicking around.


Theres plenty of reason to trade the lands, but its a question of what deck he plans to play. If we wants to at least be semi competitive at fnm (nothing wrong if he just purely wants to casually play whatever he feels like) he needs to pick a deck archetype and color set. Then his best option is to buy/trade for whatever he needs to put together that deck without compromise. If hes not planning any sort of esper deck then by all means trade those lands for lands more appropriate. $20's in shocks he wont use is a waste.

I dont expect reckoner to hit 30, we should be very close to the exit point if you dont need him. Again you need to pick a deck to play, that way you know whether or not to keep him.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
February 22 2013 00:54 GMT
#6210
Reckoner is already $30 according to SCG.

As for the lands, it was more the notion of trading them for non-lands.
MoonBear
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-22 00:54:44
February 22 2013 00:54 GMT
#6211
On February 22 2013 09:41 Trotske wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 09:38 JingleHell wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:32 Trotske wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:26 JingleHell wrote:
On February 22 2013 09:19 Trotske wrote:
So being new to Mtg I have bought a few booster packs and have manged to pull a few cards worth something, I feel that I can't really make a deck around these few cards and wanted to get an opinion on trading them away for quite a few decent cards that might enable me to make a decent deck without spending a lot of my money or just keeping them until later when I will have more cards after some drafts or something.

The cards in question are
Boros reckoner
Master biomancer
Godless shrine
Watery Grave


Under no circumstances should you trade the lands, IMO, see my difficulties putting together a good deck due to poor mana base. You NEED those lands for competitive decks.

The Reckoner is almost worth keeping, if nothing else he's been rocketing up so fast he might be worth more in a week after Games day or whenever the next set of big events is. Even with the notion of "Need cards to play", that one is one you need to play.

And mind you, that's coming from a similar point of view. Cards are good, yes. But unless you're trading carefully, for good cards, with a plan, it's a waste of good cards. Take it from a guy who's regretting the same mistake. "OK" cards don't let you play standard effectively. It's a trap it's easy to walk into.

I'm just a few weeks ahead of you on this particular learning curve, I think, or maybe just had absurd luck on my drafts rocket me forward on it. But take it from another newbie who's regretting some careless trades, there's only a minimal difference between a mediocre deck and a bad deck. And it's not worth trading cards you'll need soon for cards you won't need any more soon.


Thanks My thought about the shocklands is that I might try to trade them for the type that I want to build instead of for a lot of pretty good cards. Thanks for the input I think I will keep the boros but trade the biomancer because I don't really plan to play Green/blue. Do you know a good way to evaluate the value of cards ?


starcitygames.com for the US, or ask local players where they price things. If someone's talking trades, it's NOT rude to stop and look up a value they're telling you. Maybe if you know them, and have traded with them before, but in general, it's common sense, especially if you're new and talking about cards in excess of ~$5.

If you can even money trade the shocks for the ones you know you want, sure, go for it. Just make sure you've seen some of the big decks played before you start locking yourself in that way.



are there like vods of pros playing online somewhere? I really I have no idea where to even start Ive only really watched some drafts.

Wizards Official VoDs containing Pro Tours, World Championships, etc.

Channel Fireball has articles, but also there are channels with people like Paul Cheon, LSV, etc. playing games on MTGO and also commentating on their thoughts.

Starcity Games Video Archive with all sorts of video content from people like Brad Nelson and Brian Kibler talking about theory or commentating games. Some of the content is behind a subscription paywall though, but everything becomes free to view a month after it was published.
ModeratorA dream. Do you have one that has cursed you like that? Or maybe... a wish?
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-22 01:15:31
February 22 2013 01:10 GMT
#6212
@Jingle

That's not the right attitude to take with decks, I am playing Esper and played UB because I like Drownyard. Whether UB/Esper is the best deck is irrelevant to me, because I am going to try to make it work. It's fun for me to tweak. The standard rotation before that I was playing with Eldrazi ramp which is nothing like the deck that I am currently playing.

Like Travis Woo who comes up with those ridiculous decks is still playing with powerful effects. That's the difference between Johnny at the store who tries to do cute things with Sanguine Blood and someone like Woo who's trying to hammer you over the head with Guild Feud. You can play the deck you want, just make sure it does something that wins the game and not the turn.

Edit:

Also, just accept the limitations (and strength) of the deck when it comes up, like don't mentally make the deck something it's not, you aren't living vicariously through the deck and its associated performances (I hope). If you are, then you need to take a step back from the game and likewise take a break.
Get it by your hands...
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
February 22 2013 01:15 GMT
#6213
On February 22 2013 10:10 Judicator wrote:
@Jingle

That's not the right attitude to take with decks, I am playing Esper and played UB because I like Drownyard. Whether UB/Esper is the best deck is irrelevant to me, because I am going to try to make it work. It's fun for me to tweak. The standard rotation before that I was playing with Eldrazi ramp which is nothing like the deck that I am currently playing.

Like Travis Woo who comes up with those ridiculous decks is still playing with powerful effects. That's the difference between Johnny at the store who tries to do cute things with Sanguine Blood and someone like Woo who's trying to hammer you over the head with Guild Feud. You can play the deck you want, just make sure it does something that wins the game and not the turn.


I don't think you're understanding me. I want him to know how he's getting smacked around by different decks so he has a feel for what he'd want to do. Seems reasonable. Knowing what decks are designed to do to people lets you know which playstyle looks like more fun.

For instance, after multiple losses, I vastly prefer what Jund does, especially in midrange. However, the particularly scary midrange lists I've seen involve quite a several hundred dollars worth of cards, so I figure to assemble the manabase, and work from aggro up to midrange.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
February 22 2013 01:30 GMT
#6214
On February 22 2013 10:15 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 10:10 Judicator wrote:
@Jingle

That's not the right attitude to take with decks, I am playing Esper and played UB because I like Drownyard. Whether UB/Esper is the best deck is irrelevant to me, because I am going to try to make it work. It's fun for me to tweak. The standard rotation before that I was playing with Eldrazi ramp which is nothing like the deck that I am currently playing.

Like Travis Woo who comes up with those ridiculous decks is still playing with powerful effects. That's the difference between Johnny at the store who tries to do cute things with Sanguine Blood and someone like Woo who's trying to hammer you over the head with Guild Feud. You can play the deck you want, just make sure it does something that wins the game and not the turn.


I don't think you're understanding me. I want him to know how he's getting smacked around by different decks so he has a feel for what he'd want to do. Seems reasonable. Knowing what decks are designed to do to people lets you know which playstyle looks like more fun.

For instance, after multiple losses, I vastly prefer what Jund does, especially in midrange. However, the particularly scary midrange lists I've seen involve quite a several hundred dollars worth of cards, so I figure to assemble the manabase, and work from aggro up to midrange.


I don't think I am, as that is usually where players end up next.

Literally, if you go back a couple of weeks in this thread, you can see how violently I've changed my tune. A "decent" deck is a competitive deck, and an "almost decent" deck is a bad deck. I hate that it's the case, but a lot of the people you'll play standard against are practicing for tournaments and shit, or getting points to go to big events. They aren't dicking around.


Competitive is a generic term and more often than not, a misnomer. New players like you starting out often get dream crushed when their deck ideas don't check out not because their ideas are original or bad, but they are thinking too small. That's the point I was trying to make. Like people post ideas in this thread every once in a while and more often I am on the side telling them to shut it down simply because they aren't doing enough. You are falling into the trap of pigeonholing decks into decent/almost decent when quite honestly you have no basis/experience to make that call other than misleading tournament results. Don't do it, you are putting a ceiling on yourself if you do.

"Hiding" behind the excuse of its only for casual is the pet peeve that gets me every time, because for whatever reason, people think casual = bad on the simple basis that competitive = good when that translation makes little sense once you think about it.

Deck building is a process, Woo said it best that what people don't realize that his Living End deck had like 70(!) other versions before he made it tick and work. My old UB deck probably had more even when it was clear that Delver/Geist rapes it 7 out of 10 times. Some people say having the internet has shortened the deck building process from the inception of MTG, I would argue the opposite.
Get it by your hands...
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
February 22 2013 01:36 GMT
#6215
On February 22 2013 10:30 Judicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 10:15 JingleHell wrote:
On February 22 2013 10:10 Judicator wrote:
@Jingle

That's not the right attitude to take with decks, I am playing Esper and played UB because I like Drownyard. Whether UB/Esper is the best deck is irrelevant to me, because I am going to try to make it work. It's fun for me to tweak. The standard rotation before that I was playing with Eldrazi ramp which is nothing like the deck that I am currently playing.

Like Travis Woo who comes up with those ridiculous decks is still playing with powerful effects. That's the difference between Johnny at the store who tries to do cute things with Sanguine Blood and someone like Woo who's trying to hammer you over the head with Guild Feud. You can play the deck you want, just make sure it does something that wins the game and not the turn.


I don't think you're understanding me. I want him to know how he's getting smacked around by different decks so he has a feel for what he'd want to do. Seems reasonable. Knowing what decks are designed to do to people lets you know which playstyle looks like more fun.

For instance, after multiple losses, I vastly prefer what Jund does, especially in midrange. However, the particularly scary midrange lists I've seen involve quite a several hundred dollars worth of cards, so I figure to assemble the manabase, and work from aggro up to midrange.


I don't think I am, as that is usually where players end up next.

Show nested quote +
Literally, if you go back a couple of weeks in this thread, you can see how violently I've changed my tune. A "decent" deck is a competitive deck, and an "almost decent" deck is a bad deck. I hate that it's the case, but a lot of the people you'll play standard against are practicing for tournaments and shit, or getting points to go to big events. They aren't dicking around.


Competitive is a generic term and more often than not, a misnomer. New players like you starting out often get dream crushed when their deck ideas don't check out not because their ideas are original or bad, but they are thinking too small. That's the point I was trying to make. Like people post ideas in this thread every once in a while and more often I am on the side telling them to shut it down simply because they aren't doing enough. You are falling into the trap of pigeonholing decks into decent/almost decent when quite honestly you have no basis/experience to make that call other than misleading tournament results. Don't do it, you are putting a ceiling on yourself if you do.

"Hiding" behind the excuse of its only for casual is the pet peeve that gets me every time, because for whatever reason, people think casual = bad on the simple basis that competitive = good when that translation makes little sense once you think about it.

Deck building is a process, Woo said it best that what people don't realize that his Living End deck had like 70(!) other versions before he made it tick and work. My old UB deck probably had more even when it was clear that Delver/Geist rapes it 7 out of 10 times. Some people say having the internet has shortened the deck building process from the inception of MTG, I would argue the opposite.


Fair enough, maybe it's just the perceptions of a noob getting crushed repeatedly by high tier decks. I'd at least suggest, though, that I put enough caveat on my post that I'm also a noob that hopefully he takes me with a bit of a grain of salt and listens to the more experienced players over myself.

Even so, it's hard to have fun when you can't win, and at least here, if you enter even a local tourney, you're getting your head stepped on if you run a less than amazing decklist.
Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-22 02:04:26
February 22 2013 01:59 GMT
#6216
Problem is that people are so ingrained in what they think what works and what doesn't without really truly figuring out what doesn't.

How many ratings, suggestions, advice columns have you seen just for Gatecrash alone on the card quality? Like Guild Feud was dismissed without any exploration. Some times a streamlined process isn't necessarily the best one.

Take Primeval Titan for example, the vast majority of people wrote the card off before Zendikar block was even released. Then comes one of the most dominating decks in standard. Then outgoes Zendikar block in rotation and people wrote off Primeval Titan again. Then the same thing happened and eventually we saw a deck that played Primeval Titans handily win the last World Championship ever. So while information broke out fast about Kessig Wolf Run, people forgot that they just as handily wrote off one of the key components of that deck just as quickly using the same platform.

Edit:

New players need to worry less about deck choices and more about their player skill. Don't worry so much about what deck is good or bad and focus on lines of play, what cards you need to play and when as well as what cards your opponent will play and so forth. Things like that matter so much more than deck. This is where draft helps a bunch, this where developing friendships with people at your LGS matters. This is where free programs like MWS and Cockatrice helps (albeit further down the line) before they start investing actual money into decks.
Get it by your hands...
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-22 02:37:15
February 22 2013 02:32 GMT
#6217
On February 22 2013 09:19 Trotske wrote:
So being new to Mtg I have bought a few booster packs and have manged to pull a few cards worth something, I feel that I can't really make a deck around these few cards and wanted to get an opinion on trading them away for quite a few decent cards that might enable me to make a decent deck without spending a lot of my money or just keeping them until later when I will have more cards after some drafts or something.

The cards in question are
Boros reckoner
Master biomancer
Godless shrine
Watery Grave


I would trade Reckoner away faster than light speed. Not only is it extremely unlikely to increase in value, but it's worth a good bit so it can help get you started with cards you really need. Its power level isn't extremely high, it's only valuable because it's filling a contextual role that no other card fills at the moment in a variety of decks. Best case, it holds value until it rotates. Worst case, if the format adapts to beat it, or another better 3-drop is printed, it will become worthless overnight.

Edit: For what it's worth, most people will be happy to "trade up" $40 worth of uncommons/cheap rares for a single $30 card. This can help you assemble a cheap starter deck quickly. A $30 rare is a lot easier to unload than $40 worth of small stuff, so if they're not willing to give you some value, they're not worth trading with.
We found Dove in a soapless place.
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
February 22 2013 02:40 GMT
#6218
On February 22 2013 11:32 Cel.erity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2013 09:19 Trotske wrote:
So being new to Mtg I have bought a few booster packs and have manged to pull a few cards worth something, I feel that I can't really make a deck around these few cards and wanted to get an opinion on trading them away for quite a few decent cards that might enable me to make a decent deck without spending a lot of my money or just keeping them until later when I will have more cards after some drafts or something.

The cards in question are
Boros reckoner
Master biomancer
Godless shrine
Watery Grave


I would trade Reckoner away faster than light speed. Not only is it extremely unlikely to increase in value, but it's worth a good bit so it can help get you started with cards you really need. Its power level isn't extremely high, it's only valuable because it's filling a contextual role that no other card fills at the moment in a variety of decks. Best case, it holds value until it rotates. Worst case, if the format adapts to beat it, or another better 3-drop is printed, it will become worthless overnight.

Edit: For what it's worth, most people will be happy to "trade up" $40 worth of uncommons/cheap rares for a single $30 card. This can help you assemble a cheap starter deck quickly. A $30 rare is a lot easier to unload than $40 worth of small stuff, so if they're not willing to give you some value, they're not worth trading with.


+1. Reckoner is a *rare*. Its really good but as more are opened the price will steadily decline imo.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
February 22 2013 02:41 GMT
#6219
There are several ways to approach the deckbuilding process. Me, I hate deckbuilding, so I like to netdeck. It's what I've always done. However, I definitely agree with Judicator on his last point. Skill matters more than your deck. Not necessarily because a deck isn't important, because it is, but two years from now, the Standard deck you're building now will be gone, but your skill won't.

If you want to set yourself a goal to build a competitive deck, try it first. Go on Magic Workstation. Use Starcitygames to find a decklist you like, build it, and start playing. The players there will seem fairly skilled to you, but most of them will be a fair bit worse than your best local store players. To give you an idea, I was a strong local player who had moderate results at larger tournaments. I quit the game for two years, and when I came back, I was still able to outplay most of the players there. I'm not saying this to boast, but rather to point out that Magic Workstation is a great way to play competitive decks vs. other competitive decks against opponents who aren't necessarily tournament veterans.

I've cannibalised an old guide I wrote a few years back for MWS, but it's still relevant. If you see any weird syntax, it's because it used to be a series of blog posts. I tried to remove said references, but may not have succeeded in all of them.

+ Show Spoiler +
This guide will cover the basics and not-so-basics of Magic Workstation (henceforth referred to as MWS), and get you up to speed with getting it up and running with all the cards, the interface of both building and playing, and the etiquette of the program.

To download the core of Magic Workstation, you can follow this link: http://www.magicworkstation.com/downloads.php. It's the first file.

Alright! You've downloaded it. Installing it is easy, simply follow the prompts.

However, when you bring up your Magic Workstation, you'll probably see some very odd cards. These aren't Magic cards, so we're going to need the gamepack. Thus, follow this link: http://www.mwsgames.com/index.php/Main_Page and download the MTG Card Database.

Now, here's what to do if the latest set's cards aren't in the database. To get these, we'll need to add a new set. Since you have to do this every few months anyway, I'll walk you through the process. First, Google up <set name> MWS patch. In this case, "Gatecrash MWS patch".

Once it's downloaded, we need to install it. First, go to the toolbar at the top (the one with File, Edit and View in it in basically all programs) and go to Tools. Under there, select Analyse/Add/Remove Editions. Once there, choose Add New Edition, then tick the "Get data from text spoiler" option.

You can then proceed to go to your Downloads folder and select the set's file. Follow the prompts, and you're done. Go to File -> Save, or simply press Ctrl + S (THIS STEP IS IMPORTANT), and you're ready to play with the new cards.

Now that you've gotten all 173 million cards in Magic, how do you sort them into formats? To do that, first press Ctrl + F2. You will then be in the Deckbuilding screen. Now, notice the row of pictures below the menu (the bar with File and Edit in it.) Click on the fourth one. You can then select Classic, Extended, Standard, or Custom. Standard or Extended may not be updated, so if so, trim the sets that are no longer legal, then you're ready to build decks.

The deck building interface is so ridiculously simple that I almost feel guilty for writing a guide about it. It seems...cheap somehow. Anyway, here's the ridiculously complicated way to add a card to your deck:

Select the card.
Click the blue arrow.

To remove the card, select it from the deck menu, and press the red arrow. To put a card in your sideboard, select the card from the left, and click the green arrow. Simple as that.

To connect to a game, either press Ctrl + I, or go to Game -> Connect to Opponent to bring up the connection window. Choose mwsplay.net (the default one) and press Connect. From there, you can join a game by clicking Join, or start your own, and Accept players who enter it.

When you start playing, press Ctrl + S a couple of times to shuffle your deck. You can chat with your opponent with the chat box, but most are there to just play. A simple 'hi' will suffice. Ctrl + I rolls a 20-sided dice, to see who goes first. Once you decide, press Ctrl + M to mulligan (Mulliganing from 0 draws 7 cards). until you're happy with your hand.

During your turn, you can play cards from your hand by dragging them from your hand to the field. You tap a card by right-clicking and selecting tap, or double-clicking. You can also click and drag a box to tap several permanents at once, say for a big spell or large attack.

Ctrl + D draws you a card, which you'll need sooner or later. To attack, go to the Declare Attackers step (the phases are at the top left of your half of the screen. You don't need to worry too much about them in a casual pick-up match unless the play is complex.) and right-click to choose Declare Attack.

To untap your permanents, use Ctrl + U, and to end the turn, press Ctrl + Enter. It's customary to say 'End my turn' or something similar, and your opponent will then end your turn for you assuming he has no EOT effects. You do the same for him.

Now that you know the basics, here's a rule of thumb for advanced functions. When in doubt, right-click. You need to search your library? Right-click your library and select the option. If right-clicking doesn't help, go to the Card menu on the bar at the top. That should teach you 99% of what you need to know. If you still don't know, ask your opponent.

we'll be covering etiquette. These are the kind of things that a new MWS player won't know, but can seriously piss off a veteran, even though they won't even know they're doing it. They're also quite important, so let's get to it! (This is all stuff I wish I knew when I was a newbie at MWS)

Your first piece of etiquette should be before you even play a game. Go to Game -> Test Deck in Solo Mode. Then, under your name in the right side of the screen, change it from Player to whatever username you like. A lot of MWSers don't like Player as a name as it's too anonymous and also can be symbolic of a noob (or an experienced player trying to catch people out). Personally, I'll play with people named Player but a lot of people don't.

Now we're ready to play. Generally your game description should be the format, and "2/3 sb" if you want to play a full match.

Once you get in the game, greet your opponent (a simple "Hi" will suffice), and then Ctrl + S to shuffle your deck a few times. Ctrl + I rolls the dice to determine who goes first, and then you should say whether you play or draw. If you keep, say so, if you mulligan, feel free to simply press Ctrl + M rather than say 'mull'.

At the end of your turn, it is a good idea to say 'End my turn'. Your opponent will then end your turn, or say EOT and perform something in that step. You do the same for him. This gives players the opportunity to respond to the end of turn step.

As to phases, generally you use them in more complex situations, such as resolving an upkeep effect for the first time (After that, people tend to expect it. Just pause for a couple of seconds between doing the effect and drawing your card for the turn.) or doing a complex combat phase. or if you're in a tournament game. (You can find tournaments at Magic-league.com)

If you have a rules question, and you can't work it out with your opponent, go to magic-league.com and join the #judges4you chat. They'll be able to answer it.

If you want to play combo, it's a good idea to become fluent at goldfishing it before playing on MWS, for the happiness of all concerned.

Last but certainly not least, if you play against a rude or abusive opponent, simply leave. There's plenty of other opponents out there: don't waste time playing against someone who abuses you. It isn't worth it.

These are all tips that I simply picked up from learning. There seems to be a lot there, but don't worry: you'll pick it up bit by bit until most of it is second nature. It's okay to be slow with the program at first (just make sure you solitaire enough to remember the basic functions before you play), and you'll get faster before you know it. And now, you people who don't know how to use MWS have absolutely no excuse Hop on MWS, and play some games!
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-22 04:01:02
February 22 2013 03:58 GMT
#6220
Hey Trotske, just a thought, if you were wanting to play Dimir and take big advantage of ciphering nuisance cards, there's actually some excellent options for slipping them through quickly, now that I've thought about it a bit more.

(In light of the knowledge bomb Judicator dropped, I'm taking a step back in my thought processes, and discounting less cards)

Duty-Bound Dead, for one. Cheap one drop, can't block, unblockable. Great for slipping a Paranoid Delusions onto. Also good would be Cloudfin Raptor, Flying + Evolve 1drop, evasion, gets bigger over time, makes him a decent target for both Cipher and spot removal.

In particular, I'd look to have ways to keep them from swinging for a lot early, since your best strategy going cheap with that concept would be to mill to turn 5 with Paranoid Delusions, preferably ciphered onto as many evasives as you can, and drop Consuming aberration. Vampire Nighthawk is a solid 3 drop for that, it's an absurd card anyway, and lifegain is good when you're slow.

Also, weird as it may sound, ciphering onto an activated keyrune could stop a lot of sorcery speed removal, also being evasive, but it's hard on your mana. Or, if you wanted to go faster, a playset of Duskmantle Guild Mage, so that you could, theoretically, cipher paranoid on turns 2-3, and activate turn 4 to do 6 damage, followed by dropping the Aberration turn 5 to swing for whatever's left if they can't counter.

I'm sure there's a few holes in the line, and making it really nasty probably requires a bigger card base, but it could be entertaining. A splash of green would give you some other cute options down the road, like Rancor, which is never bad when you want to deal damage to players.

Oh. And Death's Approach would be amazing Sorcery speed spot removal with a mill deck.
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