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+ Show Spoiler +
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Dryad
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Duskmantle Seer
-16 creatures
4 Thought Scour
3 Abrupt
3 Simic Charm
3 Dimir Charm
3 Unsummon
2 Dissipate
2 Think Twice
1 Essence Scatter
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Ultimate Price
- 23 instants
1 Runechanter's Pike
- 1 artifact
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Woodland Cemetary
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Island
- 20 lands
Sideboard is a work in progress but it's currently some permutations of Golgari Charm, Devour Flesh, Duress, Tragic Slip, Dispel and Negate.
Mana actually worked out ok in play but the Cavern almost definitely needs to be a basic instead. Could up the lands to 21-22 but I haven't had a lot of mana screw issues yet; the curve is quite low and I see a lot of cards via Thought Scour/Think Twice/Forbidden Alchemy, plus Deathrite generates mana fairly often.
Quirion Dryad gets huge very quickly, I was regularly swinging for 10+ damage out of nowhere courtesy of a few cantrips into Simic Charm.
Duskmantle has been great, the life loss is relevant but Deathrite helps in that regard and the extra cards and 4/4 body are very helpful even in the aggro matchups; having a threat that doesn't die to a single Searing Spear and can block all of monored's non-hellkite creatures is typically going to save you more life than you lose to flipping Unsummons or whatever. Also almost everybody is playing some 4-5 drops so you get a lot of turns where they flip their expensive spell, take 5 and then instantly die. Definitely had a monored opponent flip Hellkite and die on the spot at least once. Also had a UWR opponent lose a race in hilarious fashion thanks to flipping his 1-of Blasphemous Act.
I was going to cut one for another Snapcaster but Seer has been great for me so far, so I want to give it a shot until a slightly larger sample size gives me a better opinion.
I've looked at pretty much ever 1-3 mana instant and sorcery in BUG colors and there are quite a few I'm willing to give a shot, Mizzium Skin is pretty close to getting into the sideboard at least. Spell Rupture has been thrown around in discussions for this type of deck but the card just seems so abysmal, I don't think I can afford a card that is only good when I'm ahead and doesn't even stop the major problem cards (Verdict, Decay, t1/2 Pillar). If I could play Brainstorm or Ponder or something maybe I'd consider it but it just clogged up my hand too much in testing.
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Ok, to my shame I'm pants-shittingly bad at this game. Does anyone mind hoping on skype+cockatrice to help me be less bad? I'm really not sure what's going on with my play- I'm stuck in a FNM top 3 position, but honestly the play level at my LGS isn't the best and I get dream crushed when I play against people that are better, I think I take really really shitty lines when I play. =//
Anyway, shoot me a pm if you got the time. I really don't care what format/matchups but standard/modern is preferable.
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On February 20 2013 09:44 deth2munkies wrote:
Living End has a pretty great matchup against Tron, I went like 50/50 against a version that played maindeck Relics. I don't see any UWR at all in my vicinity, so I don't really know the matchup. If it's based on the standard version (Geist of St. Traft and Thundermaws) then it has a great matchup as it has 8 sacrifice effects for the geist and their burn removal will never kill any of your creatures ever. If it's straight counterspells and big stuff, it gets a bit worse.
Don't you lose to every mono-red(With a black splash) deck out there? Also every deck with a counter? I played living end for a while and it was great fun, but lost very frequently to decks with counters.
Edit ; Rainmaker5 I feel your pain. When I bother I top the FNM charts (Actually, we play at 2 locations and have a little league going, I'm still #1 on both charts at the moment despite taking things like battle of wits and epic experiment with me to battle, not sure how long I'll be top still, but doing fine for now  ) but when I go to PTQ's I feel like the weakest player in the room and like I don't have a shot at all. I almost made top 8 at a 130 players tournament once, but got dreamcrushed in a match where I had to mulligan to 4 twice. I'd like to make a top 8 someday but I'm not sure what it is I'm doing wrong and how to get better.
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Maybe you guys should get in touch and try practicing.
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That wont belp. Thats the Magic equivalent of the blind leading the blind.
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On February 20 2013 16:01 MCMcEmcee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Dryad
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Duskmantle Seer
-16 creatures
4 Thought Scour
3 Abrupt
3 Simic Charm
3 Dimir Charm
3 Unsummon
2 Dissipate
2 Think Twice
1 Essence Scatter
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Ultimate Price
- 23 instants
1 Runechanter's Pike
- 1 artifact
4 Breeding Pool
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Watery Grave
2 Drowned Catacomb
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Woodland Cemetary
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Island
- 20 lands
Sideboard is a work in progress but it's currently some permutations of Golgari Charm, Devour Flesh, Duress, Tragic Slip, Dispel and Negate. Mana actually worked out ok in play but the Cavern almost definitely needs to be a basic instead. Could up the lands to 21-22 but I haven't had a lot of mana screw issues yet; the curve is quite low and I see a lot of cards via Thought Scour/Think Twice/Forbidden Alchemy, plus Deathrite generates mana fairly often. Quirion Dryad gets huge very quickly, I was regularly swinging for 10+ damage out of nowhere courtesy of a few cantrips into Simic Charm. Duskmantle has been great, the life loss is relevant but Deathrite helps in that regard and the extra cards and 4/4 body are very helpful even in the aggro matchups; having a threat that doesn't die to a single Searing Spear and can block all of monored's non-hellkite creatures is typically going to save you more life than you lose to flipping Unsummons or whatever. Also almost everybody is playing some 4-5 drops so you get a lot of turns where they flip their expensive spell, take 5 and then instantly die. Definitely had a monored opponent flip Hellkite and die on the spot at least once. Also had a UWR opponent lose a race in hilarious fashion thanks to flipping his 1-of Blasphemous Act. I was going to cut one for another Snapcaster but Seer has been great for me so far, so I want to give it a shot until a slightly larger sample size gives me a better opinion. I've looked at pretty much ever 1-3 mana instant and sorcery in BUG colors and there are quite a few I'm willing to give a shot, Mizzium Skin is pretty close to getting into the sideboard at least. Spell Rupture has been thrown around in discussions for this type of deck but the card just seems so abysmal, I don't think I can afford a card that is only good when I'm ahead and doesn't even stop the major problem cards (Verdict, Decay, t1/2 Pillar). If I could play Brainstorm or Ponder or something maybe I'd consider it but it just clogged up my hand too much in testing.
Ok, so looking at the deck and thinking of (read: theorycrafting) lines of play, I don't see the point of Green outside of Deathrite Shaman and even then it's a weak argument. I don't think Abrupt Decay or Quirion Dryad is worth going into Green for T2 play. Azorius Charm, as much as I am low that card, is pretty common and is insane against Dryad even if you end up trading Charm for Charm (this I do know from testing with Esper).
Loleth Troll seems like a much better fit since it requires no investment of cards to be a threat as 2/1 is enough to threaten and you can pitch redundant cards like Shamans and Seers if need be.
I almost feel Red is a better color than Green since they have a much better Charm for the deck with Izzet.
I am almost sure Golgari Charm is the card you want against Verdict in BUG colors though.
Edit: Meant to amend the previous post.
Also, some of you all have been PM-ing me asking for advice on decks. Please don't and just post in the thread. Your question is probably someone else's question which is probably someone else's question, so just go from there. As for deck building stuff, I am not that good where I can just edit and go, most of my decks get tweaked on a regular basis to where I am comfortable, then I seek other people's input and then they get tweaked some more, then rinse-repeat for the rest of the standard cycle. That takes understanding of play lines and match ups of which I currently have very little of outside of Esper and to some limited extent Bant. I can tell you how to play/match up against those decks and all of that jazz, but my knowledge is very limited outside of that. Therefore, its probably best if you just post in the thread.
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So. Games Day. Standard. (Newbie players worst nightmare in other words.)
I'm plotting a Jund Aggro type list, although I definitely have a zero percent chance of getting a proper manabase put together in time. Hell, I'm pretty sure I won't even hit the list I'm hoping to in time, so here's what I'd call lucky, and what I think I can reasonably expect.
Thoughts?
+ Show Spoiler [If I'm lucky trading] +
3 Wasteland Viper
3 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Mountain
6 Swamp
6 Forest
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Woodland Cemetery
3 Kindled Fury
2 Searing Spear
2 Sign in Blood
2 Dreg Mangler
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Carnival Hellsteed
2 Rakdos, Lord of Riots
3 Wrecking Ogre
+ Show Spoiler [More realistic expectation] +
3 Wasteland Viper 2 Experiment One (Or Stromkirk Nobles)
3 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
6 Mountain
6 Swamp
6 Forest
1 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rootbound Crag
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Kindled Fury
2 Searing Spear
2 Sign in Blood
2 Dreg Mangler
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Deathrite Shaman 4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Carnival Hellsteed
1 Rakdos, Lord of Riots
1 Desecration Demon (or Jarad)
3 Wrecking Ogre
I have some flexibility, but not a ton on the creatures. Was planning to run SB of stuff like Golgari Charm,
Obviously, it's not top tier, but I'd kind of prefer to actually take some matches against other standard decks.
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Wasteland viper isn't a very agressive creature overall, and I'm not sure how good the bloodrush on it actually is in any kind of standard deck (+1/+2 deathtouch isn't the greatest pump spell).
You will most likely be very interested in some skullcrack (maybe 1 main 3 side or something) because otherwise there is enough easy lifegain in standard to punish this deck hard.
Kindled fury is... pretty unplayable IMO. Especially with lotleth troll you should be looking for creatures to pitch and maybe abuse from the graveyard. Also, Jarad/Rakdos really are not close to playable in 3-colour decks with any real number of basics. Besides that, rakdos's extra clause does almost nothing for you (all your creatures are lots of coloured mana and no colourless mana). I'd tell you your deck would be 3 times better with a thundermaw hellkite or 2 but I'm guessing that those are not very close to your price range.
I mean, the deck has a plan at least
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On February 21 2013 00:50 Sn0_Man wrote:Wasteland viper isn't a very agressive creature overall, and I'm not sure how good the bloodrush on it actually is in any kind of standard deck (+1/+2 deathtouch isn't the greatest pump spell). You will most likely be very interested in some skullcrack (maybe 1 main 3 side or something) because otherwise there is enough easy lifegain in standard to punish this deck hard. Kindled fury is... pretty unplayable IMO. Especially with lotleth troll you should be looking for creatures to pitch and maybe abuse from the graveyard. Also, Jarad/Rakdos really are not close to playable in 3-colour decks with any real number of basics. Besides that, rakdos's extra clause does almost nothing for you (all your creatures are lots of coloured mana and no colourless mana). I'd tell you your deck would be 3 times better with a thundermaw hellkite or 2 but I'm guessing that those are not very close to your price range. I mean, the deck has a plan at least
Well, I do have A Thundermaw Hellkite. The thought on Kindled Fury was just the First Strike. The Lotleth Trolls are mostly my reusable chump blockers. I have some Skullcrack in the sideboard, no effing clue why that decided not to show up on the Deckstats list for Copy/Pasting.
Also, Rakdos's mana cost thing works fine on everything bigger than himself in the deck. Even if it's useless for a lot of the small creatures.
Swapping up for a cross between Cacklers and Shamans would be fun, if I had Shamans. I just like the deathtouch on the vipers because it makes people seriously consider not blocking them.
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Getting close to rest of the missing stuff, having proper manabase makes playing the deck so much more fluid and fun, looking back I don't know how I managed without. Playing 3color without proper fixing is next to suicidal if you have heavier color costed cards.
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On February 21 2013 00:56 NeonFlare wrote:
Getting close to rest of the missing stuff, having proper manabase makes playing the deck so much more fluid and fun, looking back I don't know how I managed without. Playing 3color without proper fixing is next to suicidal if you have heavier color costed cards.
Well, I can throw in Guildgates, but those don't feel very aggro to me.
Oh holy shit, just looked at the price on that Hellkite, maybe I DO have a chance in hell of having a manabase.
Oh, damn, I was wrong, I have a Hellkite Tyrant. Totally different. That's what I get for trying to remember shit early in the morning.
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On February 21 2013 00:59 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 00:56 NeonFlare wrote:
Getting close to rest of the missing stuff, having proper manabase makes playing the deck so much more fluid and fun, looking back I don't know how I managed without. Playing 3color without proper fixing is next to suicidal if you have heavier color costed cards. Well, I can throw in Guildgates, but those don't feel very aggro to me.
You can do whatever you want to, but losing because you drew 3 mountains a swamp and a forest and never got to cast your sign in bloods or vampire nighthawks (or rakdos/jarad) despite hitting 5 mana is really frustrating. And its scarily possible with your manabase. Especially if you have to hold up a black forever to regen that lotleth troll.
I mean, play to have fun and if you think you will have the most fun playing 3 colour no-fixing aggro then do it, but I know I would ragequit after the third mull to 4 because I never saw that critical black source or whatever. The thing about an aggro deck is that you usually can't afford to miss that crucial land drop or colour since that one turn is too much to come back from.
P.S: I've never been much of an aggro player anyways so my opinions come with a grain of salt obviously.
Edit: just saw YOUR edits.  no fun haha
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On February 21 2013 01:08 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 00:59 JingleHell wrote:On February 21 2013 00:56 NeonFlare wrote:
Getting close to rest of the missing stuff, having proper manabase makes playing the deck so much more fluid and fun, looking back I don't know how I managed without. Playing 3color without proper fixing is next to suicidal if you have heavier color costed cards. Well, I can throw in Guildgates, but those don't feel very aggro to me. You can do whatever you want to, but losing because you drew 3 mountains a swamp and a forest and never got to cast your sign in bloods or vampire nighthawks (or rakdos/jarad) despite hitting 5 mana is really frustrating. And its scarily possible with your manabase. Especially if you have to hold up a black forever to regen that lotleth troll. I mean, play to have fun and if you think you will have the most fun playing 3 colour no-fixing aggro then do it, but I know I would ragequit after the third mull to 4 because I never saw that critical black source or whatever. The thing about an aggro deck is that you usually can't afford to miss that crucial land drop or colour since that one turn is too much to come back from. P.S: I've never been much of an aggro player anyways so my opinions come with a grain of salt obviously. Edit: just saw YOUR edits. no fun haha
The best option I have for fixing outside of my current Blood Crypt, Summit, and pair of Rootbounds is guildgates, keyrunes, and Transguild Promenade. Or Prophetic Prism. Most of that is like limited format color fixing at best. And my current stuff is a lot of "tapped unless you control"
It's not that I want to run with a bad mana base, it's that I get to make the best of a bad manabase. And unless I run 2 colors at most (which fucks me fairly hard on creatures and spells with my rather small collection), I'm going to have mana trouble.
I could maybe try to trim it down to a Gruul deck, but that fucks me hard on 3 and 4 drops. If I go Rakdos, I'm fairly lackluster, and Golgari, no ability to curve above 4 drops, and even then I'd run spell heavy and just get run over by creatures.
I've already GOT a lackluster Golgari deck, and a lackluster Rakdos deck. That's why, when I saw the Jund Archetype, I wanted to head into it. Because I've almost got enough half decent cards between the two to make a deck that might at least make people think about their sideboard.
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On February 20 2013 18:51 Pellucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 09:44 deth2munkies wrote:
Living End has a pretty great matchup against Tron, I went like 50/50 against a version that played maindeck Relics. I don't see any UWR at all in my vicinity, so I don't really know the matchup. If it's based on the standard version (Geist of St. Traft and Thundermaws) then it has a great matchup as it has 8 sacrifice effects for the geist and their burn removal will never kill any of your creatures ever. If it's straight counterspells and big stuff, it gets a bit worse. Don't you lose to every mono-red(With a black splash) deck out there? Also every deck with a counter? I played living end for a while and it was great fun, but lost very frequently to decks with counters. Edit ; Rainmaker5 I feel your pain. When I bother I top the FNM charts (Actually, we play at 2 locations and have a little league going, I'm still #1 on both charts at the moment despite taking things like battle of wits and epic experiment with me to battle, not sure how long I'll be top still, but doing fine for now ) but when I go to PTQ's I feel like the weakest player in the room and like I don't have a shot at all. I almost made top 8 at a 130 players tournament once, but got dreamcrushed in a match where I had to mulligan to 4 twice. I'd like to make a top 8 someday but I'm not sure what it is I'm doing wrong and how to get better.
I haven't lost to counterspell decks at all. They have to tap low for a threat eventually and I have 2 ways of resolving living end, one instant one sorcery. Plus, once I get enough mana, I can absorb their counterspells by casting fatties. Baneslayer can't attack through a hardcast Jungle Weaver...
Mono red is kind of a coinflip that gets infinitely better postboard. Brindle Boar + Gnaw to the Bone gives you a big life cushion against burn and you're naturally good against creature based boros/mono red decks. It's very possible that they just straight up kill you with some miracled thunderous wraths or some such, but it happens.
The things LE is weak against are things like Twin, who can go off when you have 3 lands on the play, so no violent outburst or beast within = loss. I might rephrase the "good Tron matchup" because a T3 Tron into Karn on the play kind of wrecks you, but Wurmcoil or any other thing is easily dealt with. 10 maindeck land destruction spells means if you're on the play or they don't have the nuts you're at a huge advantage. It was somewhat soft to storm as well, but that's no longer an issue.
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@Jingle Fair. There is certainly something to be said for just playing your best cards and leaving yourself with a chance at simply drawing well and winning. I just know that I would get so frustrated by the mana base that I'm not sure I would have much fun with that deck.
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On February 21 2013 01:24 Sn0_Man wrote:
@Jingle Fair. There is certainly something to be said for just playing your best cards and leaving yourself with a chance at simply drawing well and winning. I just know that I would get so frustrated by the mana base that I'm not sure I would have much fun with that deck.
Well, I already know I won't have much fun running my current standard decks in a tournament setting. They won't win. I tried my Golgari deck in a standard tournament, and lost roughly 100% of my games. My Rakdos deck is at best on even footing or slightly better.
At least with three colors, if I hit my mana drops, I'll have some sort of chance, if I get the stars to align on my Golgari deck, it's about a turn too slow against aggro, and has about zero chances in hell against any sort of control, because you just get snapcasted verdicts all over the gimmicky Desecration Demons.
Probably the best 4 drop I could reasonably expect to trade into by Saturday with my limited options, is Rubblebelts. What do we think of those replacing Jarad/Rakdos?
I could also try to get ahold of Cryptborn Horrors to suplement the 3drops in a less restricted way than the Nighthawks.
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On February 21 2013 01:31 JingleHell wrote:
I could also try to get ahold of Cryptborn Horrors to suplement the 3drops in a less restricted way than the Nighthawks.
How much damage do you think you can RELIABLY push through turn 3? Because I get the impression you are looking at about 2 damage on turn 3 (average case here) to play cryptborn. I think dreg mangler will be substantially better at 3 mana for you.
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On February 21 2013 02:03 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 01:31 JingleHell wrote:
I could also try to get ahold of Cryptborn Horrors to suplement the 3drops in a less restricted way than the Nighthawks. How much damage do you think you can RELIABLY push through turn 3? Because I get the impression you are looking at about 2 damage on turn 3 (average case here) to play cryptborn. I think dreg mangler will be substantially better at 3 mana for you.
Well, Dreg is obviously better than Cryptborn, but Cryptborn seems more reliable mana-wise than Nighthawk, which was where I was thinking about slipping it in.
Also, turn 3, I should reliably be able to hit for 4. Lotleth or Shred Freak will both Evolve an Experiment 1, and a Cackler would be a 2/2 from unleash, so swinging for 4 isn't unreasonable. Unless I'm dealing with Ash Zealots that didn't get turned sideways for some bizarre reason, the 4 damage seems feasible.
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Yes, but the chances of your deck playing Experiment One on turn one, then Rakdos Shred Freak on turn 2 are actually 0. Actually. Because you have no lands that allow you to do that.
Remember that you have to expect them to interact with you by turn 3 (aka azorius charm one of your creatures) and also that 6 one drops is around 50/50 to hit one turn one.
Again, you CAN hit for 4 turn 3, and it probably won't be rare, but I still say your average, reliable turn 3 is simply 2 damage (assuming you want to play horror on turn 3). There is, of course, an argument for holding horror until turn 4 so that you can get in more damage while also holding up regen for lotleth troll or w/e.
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Thoughts on a Agro/miller deck? I jsut started playing MtG and have pulled quite a few dimir cards that seem to work ok for a mill/agro deck. I will post the current decklist when I get home but would love some input of some good cards that I should be looking to trade for.
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EPT
