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Korea (South)922 Posts
On October 27 2012 04:24 fifasnipe2224 wrote:
Dissipate x4
Guttersnipe x4
Searing Spear x4
Desperate Ravings x4
Pillar of Flame x4
Archaeomancer x3
Talrand, Sky Summoner x3
Goblin Electromancer x3
Talrand's Invocation x2
Syncopate x2
Runechanter's Pike x1
Cyclonic Rift x1
Epic Experiment x1
Staff of Nin x1
**Updated to my latest version. Any thoughts??
Remove: Desperate Ravings, Archaeomancer, Talrand's Invocation, Pike, Rift, Epic Experiment, Staff of Nin
Suggestions: 4 Think Twice, 4 Izzet Charm, (Even 4 Delver would be great in this deck), 4 thought scour, Annihilating Fire (if you play a lot of zombies, otherwise flames of the firebrand is great too), Devil's Play + guttersnipe is ridiculous, and eventually if you can afford snapcasters you should replace with archaeomancer.
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6 mana exile populate removal is a bad card. At that much mana you want something that is doing way more than that. Why aren't you running 4 Selesnya Charms? Why 0 Angel of Serenity? Wayfaring Temple is not a good card.
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Make it properly block constructed. Just look at any of the Selesnya decks that win block constructed dailies on MODO.
There's no point playing standard with a list that basically uses one set.
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On October 29 2012 08:03 bobbob wrote:
Make it properly block constructed. Just look at any of the Selesnya decks that win block constructed dailies on MODO.
There's no point playing standard with a list that basically uses one set.
I'm just doing it for fun, not for competitive.
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On October 29 2012 07:22 Risen wrote:
6 mana exile populate removal is a bad card. At that much mana you want something that is doing way more than that. Why aren't you running 4 Selesnya Charms? Why 0 Angel of Serenity? Wayfaring Temple is not a good card.
uh why is wayfaring temple not good... in a selesnya deck... seems pretty insane.
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In any case, the keyrune is better than Axebane, on account of it not dying to Supreme Verdict, and its ability to swing. Smiters are good vs control decks, as well as handling Rakdos' Return. Centaur Healers are better than Druid's Deliverance in most cases.
Temple has been making its way into Selesnya block decks, which your deck effectively is.
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On October 29 2012 08:11 Artifex Magnus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:22 Risen wrote:
6 mana exile populate removal is a bad card. At that much mana you want something that is doing way more than that. Why aren't you running 4 Selesnya Charms? Why 0 Angel of Serenity? Wayfaring Temple is not a good card. uh why is wayfaring temple not good... in a selesnya deck... seems pretty insane.
Does it do anything on it's own or does it rely on other cards IN PLAY for P/T, have to untap, and have to get through attacking to do anything?
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On October 29 2012 08:12 bobbob wrote:
In any case, the keyrune is better than Axebane, on account of it not dying to Supreme Verdict, and its ability to swing. Smiters are good vs control decks, as well as handling Rakdos' Return. Centaur Healers are better than Druid's Deliverance in most cases.
Temple has been making its way into Selesnya block decks, which your deck effectively is.
I've been using druid's deliverance in combination with rootborn defenses. (Swing with everything, rootborn when they block, druid's deliverance next turn to take nothing and essentially i've populated twice and cleared some board.) Of course this is all in draft games, which I know are wildly different, but it still seems good.
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In constructed, for a lot of decks it's less about racing, and more about killing them before they stabilize. Lategame plans include Jace, Angel of Serenity, Niv Mizzet, etc. Populate is not guranteed to work, as any UW deck in block plays Dramatic Rescue (and probably Supreme Verdict). GB plays bigger guys than you, meaning they block your centaur with Deadbridge Goliath, or they just T2 Pack Ratted and you are racing before they grow too large to handle. Golgari goes bigger than you, control decks try to keep your creature count down.
Rakdos aggro is basically the only time Deliverance is that good, and it's why you put some in the SB.
Rootborn Defenses is fine, a bit weak in the mirror, but that's it.
EDIT: Play more lands, 21 is way too few when you are really wanting to hit 6-drops.
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my god I am missing all sorts of signals in these drafts. or they don't make any sense. sigh.
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So apparently WotC is no longer going to be releasing the decklists for each of the DE's on MTGO, with R&D citing concerns of the various metagames and deck's being fine-tuned and "solved" much faster than they had hoped, leading to the various formats getting stale/old much faster than they had hoped.
Now, they will post the decklists of the Top 8 lists in Premiere Events and the lists that go 4-0 or 3-1 in a random DE of each format.
Source: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75846/29443457/What_is_WRONG_with_you,_WotC_Grrrr.....&post_num=12#525499121
Personally, I understand what they are trying to do; provide longevity to the various formats, specifically Standard, so that we don't have months of a particular deck ruling the metagame due to being distilled to it's most powerful form (Jund in the Alara-Eldrazi days, CawBlade in the Zendikar-SOM block, and U/W Delver in the SOM-AVR block) but in formats like Modern and Legacy, whose metagame fluxuates on a pretty regular basis, does WotC need to limit the flow of information there?
Yes, the fact that they just had a Modern PT event where a third of the field was Jund isn't a good thing, but that is probably more to blame on WotC's ban list and lack of good counterspells in Modern (read: Force of Will) than anything else. Personally speaking, if you want a more diverse metagame in Modern, unban JTMS, GSZ, Sensei's Divining Top and/or Preordain.
And as for Legacy, that format isn't "officially" supported in most of their official (read, GP or PT) events, and it's metagame is so diverse right now that there are probably a dozen lists that can win a DE or SCG Legacy Open on any given day.
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This is a BS thing to do IMO because it is artificial. To keep the standard from getting "solved" too quickly they need to make the sets better, not withhold information.
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GSZ probably needs to stay banned, and top will never come off that list (not only is counterbalance legal, but top was the leading cause of tournaments taking too long for as long as it was extended legal (and still kinda is in legacy, but they can't really ban it there. Plus there are decks like lands/enchantress that go to time every round anyway).
Preordain is sweet, but I don't see it coming off the banlist either because it's primary use is in giving blue combo and/or tempo decks a level of consistency that is probably too good (see: standard delver 2 months ago).
I would like to see jace or ancestral visions unbanned. I'd also like to see bitterblossom unbanned but then you would likely have to ban something else to keep Faeries down a bit. I liked the valakut unban for sure.
If I were wizards, I'd just keep releasing modern/legacy etc decklists, and straight up stop releasing standard ones (except for maybe premier events.) If you want standard tech, play the dailies and see the decks. Legacy/modern tech is so much more varied that it doesn't matter.
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On October 30 2012 02:20 Rainofpain wrote:
This is a BS thing to do IMO because it is artificial. To keep the standard from getting "solved" too quickly they need to make the sets better, not withhold information.
And that was exactly my point on the situation. Here's the problem with that view (that I fully acknowledge) you're having a set of rules designed by 30-40 people and millions trying to "break" them. When the millions have roughly the same communication tools, they're going to win, even without as deep an understanding as the 30-40.
The way to deal with this is to be much more active in rules management and bannings. Having shorter banning cycles and banning more aggressively forces people to iterate more often and leads to much more fresh formats.
Removing information from the players ignores the fact that formats boil down to often a very small handful of cards/strategies and others are hated out with a vengeance (long term graveyard strats with Rest In Peace, aggro/tempo with Thragtusk/Terminus/Healer, etc). Making more "well rounded" cards instead of role players leads to better formats instead of creating cards designed for specific archetypes then hoping they're represented. Combine that with an aggressive banning cycle to weed out mistakes and reshape the meta on a regular basis and you have a much more fresh format. Depriving us of metagame information just ignores the problems and instead tries to contain them to people who actually do research.
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On October 30 2012 03:03 Sn0_Man wrote:
GSZ probably needs to stay banned, and top will never come off that list (not only is counterbalance legal, but top was the leading cause of tournaments taking too long for as long as it was extended legal (and still kinda is in legacy, but they can't really ban it there. Plus there are decks like lands/enchantress that go to time every round anyway).
Preordain is sweet, but I don't see it coming off the banlist either because it's primary use is in giving blue combo and/or tempo decks a level of consistency that is probably too good (see: standard delver 2 months ago).
I would like to see jace or ancestral visions unbanned. I'd also like to see bitterblossom unbanned but then you would likely have to ban something else to keep Faeries down a bit. I liked the valakut unban for sure.
If I were wizards, I'd just keep releasing modern/legacy etc decklists, and straight up stop releasing standard ones (except for maybe premier events.) If you want standard tech, play the dailies and see the decks. Legacy/modern tech is so much more varied that it doesn't matter.
I agree in that Preordain gives Blue combo/tempo decks a level of consistency they currently don't have, but it's not nearly as powerful as Ponder. Preordain forces blue decks to be a bit safer/slower with cracking their fetches to "refresh" the deck, and doesn't have the "shuffle the bad cards away, draw 1" option built into it that Ponder does.
Unbanning Ancestral Visions is a terrible idea; RUG Delver is a bit of a known entity in Modern, but cascading into Visions sounds way too strong. I can see Bitterblosson being unbanned, but without having personal knowledge of how Faeries worked in the Lorwyn-era of cards, can't comment one way or another on how good/bad of an idea that is.
The reason why I think Top could come off as it gives blue decks consistency, but is a card that can be used by all decks, so the increased consistency can - in theory - be given to all decks that can make room for the 1 mana artifact. Yes, it means CounterTop can become a thing, but Abrupt Decay says "screw you" to that plan.
The main reason behind banning GSZ initially was the turn 1 Forest into Dryad Arbor play, so if you unban GSZ, ban Dryad Arbor and that solves the GSZ problem, as the only other cards worth GSZ-ing into play are cheap enough to be cast on their own (Goyf, Noble Hierarch, Qasali Pridemage), take time setting up (Knight of the Reliquary) or are powerful, but have yet to make a splash in Modern outside of a few fringe/inconsistent decks (Primeval Titan).
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Preordain is much better than ponder if you don't have very many fetches, because it does, in fact, have that "shuffle away bad cards, draw 1" mode. It only gets rid of 2 cards, but whatever. The only reason ponder is better is because you can keep one card, then shuffle the other 2 bad cards. Preordain does let you keep the good and get rid of the bad, all by itself. No fetch required. Obviously modern has fetchlands, but I'm pointing out that unless you are running 8+ fetches, I play 4 preordain before I play the first ponder.
I'm not even a little bit worried about RUG delver in modern. Honestly, if the deck is good thats fine but I in no way see it being oppressive by cascading into ancestral. It is simply too mana constrained in modern, without force + brainstorm + wasteland for easy disruption. Like, cascading BBE into Ancestral doesn't beat Gifts -> Unburial rites + flavour of the month fatty.
Top is banned for time reasons as well. As in, mostly for time reasons. They would ban counterbalance instead if they were most worried about CB top (that and miracles + top is pretty good/oppressive).
GSZ is too good in Melira combo and elves combo as well, and they just reprinted dryad arbor in FTV: Realms so I doubt they are in a rush to ban it. Plus, GSZ as wizards mentioned really restricted how you could build green decks. They all had to have GSZ to compete.
I mean, all your arguments are fine, but I LOVE playing devil's advocate 
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I'm streaming a draft, already built the deck and its meh but I'm looking more to improve my play so if you wanna tune in to drop some advice in the chat I'd appreciate it. www.twitch.tv/sonatasc2
edit: i just can't understand this fucking game.
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I kinda want to see that list again, just caught the last game, you kept a super awkward hand vs Rakdos aggro, if you are on the draw and your first play you can see from your hand is a paralyzing grasp and you have double 6-drop (IIRC you kept 3 land Voidwielder, Paralyzing Grasp, Skyline Predator and Isperia's Skywatch on the draw vs a deck you know is aggressive.), don't be surprised when you get steamrolled by aggro. His draw was good but nothing amazing, Cackler turn 1 and Rix Maadi is obviously good, but he didn't have a 3 drop to follow up, and Cobblebrute isn't really card you want to have turn 4. While strong with Rix Maadi, I'm guessing you had almost no solutions to Rix Maadi anyways, that card is just really strong. Sure he had the Instinct, making his hand really solid, but you were dead to a removal spell at that point, from Auger Spree, Electricker, Explosive Impact, Annhiliating Fire, etc would all straight up kill you at that point. You would have been just as dead to a Rakdos deck curving out with 2-3-4 drops, if the 2 is Rix Maadi.
Basically don't be afraid to mulligan to a hand that can survive. Your plan was pretty much pray for a Frostburn Weird/Doorkeeper, instead of mulling to them, you instead tried to draw into one and got punished.
EDIT: You were playing 3 doorkeepers and 2 Lobber crews, as well as a Frostburn Weird, you have plenty of early defense.
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Idk why you would be worried about cascading into ancestral visions, ancestral visions has synergy with all the cards that cascade don't work with, mostly tempo cards/instants, etc. Cascading into spellstutter,snapcaster,remand,mana leak etc is not impressive, and basically the only cascade option you would have available anyways is Bloodbraid Elf.
You could splash blue into Jund I suppose, and make a more sorcery based deck, and then hope to cascade into visions, but you have no way to protect your visions(You can't run a ton of hand disruption with visions, simply because you will have an even worse late game), and late game they will be really bad top decks.
Visions is not scary because of cascade, when it was legal in extended people did not cascade in to it
If your playing the 3cc cascade spells with the sole purpose too hit visions, then you are doing it wrong, drawing 3 for 3 mana is not impressive, and you would have to sacrifice a TON to do it.
People are forgetting visions was not played in every blue deck, it was played in specific kinds of blue decks.
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On October 30 2012 12:01 bobbob wrote:
I kinda want to see that list again, just caught the last game, you kept a super awkward hand vs Rakdos aggro, if you are on the draw and your first play you can see from your hand is a paralyzing grasp and you have double 6-drop (IIRC you kept 3 land Voidwielder, Paralyzing Grasp, Skyline Predator and Isperia's Skywatch on the draw vs a deck you know is aggressive.), don't be surprised when you get steamrolled by aggro. His draw was good but nothing amazing, Cackler turn 1 and Rix Maadi is obviously good, but he didn't have a 3 drop to follow up, and Cobblebrute isn't really card you want to have turn 4. While strong with Rix Maadi, I'm guessing you had almost no solutions to Rix Maadi anyways, that card is just really strong. Sure he had the Instinct, making his hand really solid, but you were dead to a removal spell at that point, from Auger Spree, Electricker, Explosive Impact, Annhiliating Fire, etc would all straight up kill you at that point. You would have been just as dead to a Rakdos deck curving out with 2-3-4 drops, if the 2 is Rix Maadi.
Basically don't be afraid to mulligan to a hand that can survive. Your plan was pretty much pray for a Frostburn Weird/Doorkeeper, instead of mulling to them, you instead tried to draw into one and got punished.
EDIT: You were playing 3 doorkeepers and 2 Lobber crews, as well as a Frostburn Weird, you have plenty of early defense.
Yeah, I knew as soon as I clicked keep that it was a super bad keep.
That deck was fun though. I should have won the first game but topdecked badly.
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EPT
