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On September 10 2012 05:08 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 03:16 Judicator wrote:On September 10 2012 02:56 semantics wrote:On September 10 2012 00:03 Judicator wrote:
Rakdos can kill it and Golgari can probably trade with it all day to the point where it can race it. depends what the common rarity removal spells are. M13 has what i would consider quite a bit of removal means between all the death touch, burn, counter, etc but rtr could be anything. In a limited environment that's still a pretty good bomb easy to cast plus built in evasion with it's really high power/tuff ? M13 has very few removal. Why do you think Titanic Growth is that much better in M13 compared to M12? There are a lot of answers for a BLACK 6/6 flier in m13 just in the common uncommon slots, M12 you would need to rely more on combat tricks. And yes AVR has such sad amounts of removal. It's not really that M13 has a ton of removal it's that it has alot more good removal/answers in limited.
There really isn't all that many good removal compared to M12. The very notion that you can play the Ring cycle comfortably should tell you all you need to know.
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Not really the rings do 2 things, pump a creature and give it another ability, good answers to creatures has nothing to do with an equipment attached to creatures if those rings were in m12 they would just as powerful as there isn't that much artifact hate in either m12 or 13, and all you need to get those rings into use is just enough creatures to go though their answers.
I mean what can you do to shut down the rings?
o-ring, naturalize, encrust(either after killing the creature it's attached to or before they attach it), acidic slime, turn to slag, smelt, torch fiend and planar cleansing
m12 it's just
o-ring, naturalize, acidic slime, manic vandal, master thief and naturalize plus m12 has buried ruin which would just make the rings harder to deal along with trading post staff of win etc.
the rings have more to do with lack of artifact hate rather then plentiful good removal, what's the point of keep on using your removal to deal with pumped ring creatures when they are just going to hold out on their creatures and just weedle them out, or move the ring between 2 3 creatures pumping them out of range of things like turn to slag.
You can't expect limited to have so much removal that every deck is going to be 1/3rd removal/burn/deathtouch/w.e to deal with every creature that is going to be ringed in a deck.
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Still missing the point. Nobody would play the Rings specifically the hate for the artifacts, but rather the removal available.
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On September 10 2012 10:00 Judicator wrote:
Still missing the point. Nobody would play the Rings specifically the hate for the artifacts, but rather the removal available.
the rings are good cards in limited, the like the red ring i would play in any red deck ofc i wouldn't play it over things like searing spear or w.e but i would take out 1 creature for it, anyways it's not like i'm playing 7 removal cards and unable to fit in a ring between all my removal and creatures. You just seem to not evaluate the power level of the rings right you still think of them as week 1 where people were on the fence, but now most people will play the rings. i'd also play the black ring in any black heavy deck, i'd play the blue ring with storm tide ez because that insures victory once stormtide resolves, the green ring on a huntbeast is a game ender if gotten off early enough, short of warth. The white ring is the weakest but it's still good to have something that pumps your guys.
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His point is that there's little unconditional removal in the set so the rings are good because you don't get 2 for 1'd* that often. Same goes for Mark of the Vampire, Volcanic Strength, and the other enchantments.
*More adequate to describe the enchantments in that way in retrospect, but you're still spending equip mana.
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On September 10 2012 11:27 deth2munkies wrote:
His point is that there's little unconditional removal in the set so the rings are good because you don't get 2 for 1'd* that often. Same goes for Mark of the Vampire, Volcanic Strength, and the other enchantments.
*More adequate to describe the enchantments in that way in retrospect, but you're still spending equip mana.
Yes. There's reason why I mentioned Titanic Growth. That card was very difficult to play in various situations in M12, but the card is extremely good in green decks in M13.
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On September 10 2012 11:46 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 11:27 deth2munkies wrote:
His point is that there's little unconditional removal in the set so the rings are good because you don't get 2 for 1'd* that often. Same goes for Mark of the Vampire, Volcanic Strength, and the other enchantments.
*More adequate to describe the enchantments in that way in retrospect, but you're still spending equip mana. Yes. There's reason why I mentioned Titanic Growth. That card was very difficult to play in various situations in M12, but the card is extremely good in green decks in M13.
titanic growth fit perfectly fine with scared wolf + trollhides, which was easy to pick up because m12 green was unpopular, it's also just flat out better now in m13 because there are more playable green creatures making green a better color, m13 also plays quicker(although slow decks work in m13 if you set them up right) so trading a card for a decent combat trick works. M13 format wouldn't be so quick at times if answers to creatures wasn't prevalent in spell form.
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On September 10 2012 11:52 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 11:46 Judicator wrote:On September 10 2012 11:27 deth2munkies wrote:
His point is that there's little unconditional removal in the set so the rings are good because you don't get 2 for 1'd* that often. Same goes for Mark of the Vampire, Volcanic Strength, and the other enchantments.
*More adequate to describe the enchantments in that way in retrospect, but you're still spending equip mana. Yes. There's reason why I mentioned Titanic Growth. That card was very difficult to play in various situations in M12, but the card is extremely good in green decks in M13. titanic growth fit perfectly fine with scared wolf + trollhides, which was easy to pick up because m12 green was unpopular, it's also just flat out better now in m13 because there are more playable green creatures making green a better color, m13 also plays quicker(although slow decks work in m13 if you set them up right) so trading a card for a decent combat trick works. M13 format wouldn't be so quick at times if answers to creatures wasn't prevalent in spell form.
Ok, so you're saying if you had a 3/1 hexproofer that they can chump with any 1/x to make you use titanic growth, then titanic growth is good. Also you're saying that you can afford to play a 3 mana sorcery speed enchant into any open mana in M12.
So the question I have to ask you, have you played with Growth in M12 and M13?
Edit:
I should bring up that you can afford to play Tricks or Mark into open mana more often in M13 than people think.
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So for tonight we have:
- a rare 1/2 for hybrid U/R that exiles your spells on the stack to give itself two +1/+1 counters,
- the new guildmage for Rakdos which you can pay BR to give target blocking creature -1/-1 until end of turn or pay BR to cause target player who lost life this turn to lose 1 life,
- the Selesnya guild leader a mythic 2/5 for GGWW that gains you life equal to the toughness of a creature entering the battlefield under your control and can populate for tapping plus 1GW.
There was also a 6/5 flying imp for 4RR that has unleash and trample if it has a +1/+1 counter on it spoiled on a Japanese site over the weekend.
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On September 10 2012 13:16 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 11:52 semantics wrote:On September 10 2012 11:46 Judicator wrote:On September 10 2012 11:27 deth2munkies wrote:
His point is that there's little unconditional removal in the set so the rings are good because you don't get 2 for 1'd* that often. Same goes for Mark of the Vampire, Volcanic Strength, and the other enchantments.
*More adequate to describe the enchantments in that way in retrospect, but you're still spending equip mana. Yes. There's reason why I mentioned Titanic Growth. That card was very difficult to play in various situations in M12, but the card is extremely good in green decks in M13. titanic growth fit perfectly fine with scared wolf + trollhides, which was easy to pick up because m12 green was unpopular, it's also just flat out better now in m13 because there are more playable green creatures making green a better color, m13 also plays quicker(although slow decks work in m13 if you set them up right) so trading a card for a decent combat trick works. M13 format wouldn't be so quick at times if answers to creatures wasn't prevalent in spell form. Ok, so you're saying if you had a 3/1 hexproofer that they can chump with any 1/x to make you use titanic growth, then titanic growth is good. Also you're saying that you can afford to play a 3 mana sorcery speed enchant into any open mana in M12. So the question I have to ask you, have you played with Growth in M12 and M13? Edit: I should bring up that you can afford to play Tricks or Mark into open mana more often in M13 than people think.
KEY-->troll hide + 3/1 hex proof meant trades meant inevitability on board because they would lose creatures if they wanted to race titanic growth helped get the last hit in.
And yes i've played growth plenty in green with a splash of blue M12 i've also played it quite a bit in M13 allowing shit to kill other crap when it was an easy block, turning a creature loss into their creature loss 1 for 1. I rather have a creature + a good trick then a creature + a creature.
M12 trollhide was the only thing making green useful the stat boost and regen =p
A 5/3 regen hexproof is fucking great in limited, 2 mana for regen isn't too costly for green attack every turn prompt their trades and chumps, don't even need mana up if they just want to race just cast creatures to chump for you and keep attacking using titanic to get past anything with 6 tough or to hit for 9 when the time is right.
What they hell are you playing against in M12 where they have mana up every turn and always hitting creatures draws to chump block? The only time you may consider to pause casing troll hide is a heavy blue control deck, else every other color just fucking cast the trollhide onto the 3/1 hexproof. I'm talking limited
You can play tricks and mark into open mana, it really just depends on the other persons deck and what your casting it onto. I'd cast tricks onto a sentinel spider 2 turns after it resolves in a heart beat. You must play with people who love to play control but M13 has very valid aggro in limited. That being said not everyone is going to have 2-3 mana open every turn to represent shit that would be in most decks. You're only thinking of removal at instant speed to deal with something on the stack in order to negate the power of enchantments that also give toughness, that wouldn't negate the power of the rings.
Btw i'd only play 1 tricks in a deck ever, but i play as mana marks as i can get my hands on, even if they are only around for 1 turn they do a good job. All you have to do is guess what they have in their hand based on what they played and what you played, to determine what burns/murder or w.e they have. If 1 turn ago they didn't bounce my 3/3 or kill it i doubt they have it right now as i cast mark on my creature, few people run negate main so fuck it and just go for it.
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On September 10 2012 13:51 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 13:16 Judicator wrote:On September 10 2012 11:52 semantics wrote:On September 10 2012 11:46 Judicator wrote:On September 10 2012 11:27 deth2munkies wrote:
His point is that there's little unconditional removal in the set so the rings are good because you don't get 2 for 1'd* that often. Same goes for Mark of the Vampire, Volcanic Strength, and the other enchantments.
*More adequate to describe the enchantments in that way in retrospect, but you're still spending equip mana. Yes. There's reason why I mentioned Titanic Growth. That card was very difficult to play in various situations in M12, but the card is extremely good in green decks in M13. titanic growth fit perfectly fine with scared wolf + trollhides, which was easy to pick up because m12 green was unpopular, it's also just flat out better now in m13 because there are more playable green creatures making green a better color, m13 also plays quicker(although slow decks work in m13 if you set them up right) so trading a card for a decent combat trick works. M13 format wouldn't be so quick at times if answers to creatures wasn't prevalent in spell form. Ok, so you're saying if you had a 3/1 hexproofer that they can chump with any 1/x to make you use titanic growth, then titanic growth is good. Also you're saying that you can afford to play a 3 mana sorcery speed enchant into any open mana in M12. So the question I have to ask you, have you played with Growth in M12 and M13? Edit: I should bring up that you can afford to play Tricks or Mark into open mana more often in M13 than people think. KEY-->troll hide + 3/1 hex proof meant trades meant inevitability on board because they would lose creatures if they wanted to race titanic growth helped get the last hit in. And yes i've played growth plenty in green with a splash of blue M12 i've also played it quite a bit in M13 allowing shit to kill other crap when it was an easy block, turning a creature loss into their creature loss 1 for 1. I rather have a creature + a good trick then a creature + a creature. M12 trollhide was the only thing making green useful the stat boost and regen =p A 5/3 regen hexproof is fucking great in limited, 2 mana for regen isn't too costly for green attack every turn prompt their trades and chumps, don't even need mana up if they just want to race just cast creatures to chump for you and keep attacking using titanic to get past anything with 6 tough or to hit for 9 when the time is right. What they hell are you playing against in M12 where they have mana up every turn and always hitting creatures draws to chump block? The only time you may consider to pause casing troll hide is a heavy blue control deck, else every other color just fucking cast the trollhide onto the 3/1 hexproof. I'm talking limited You can play tricks and mark into open mana, it really just depends on the other persons deck and what your casting it onto. I'd cast tricks onto a sentinel spider 2 turns after it resolves in a heart beat. You must play with people who love to play control but M13 has very valid aggro in limited. That being said not everyone is going to have 2-3 mana open every turn to represent shit that would be in most decks. You're only thinking of removal at instant speed to deal with something on the stack in order to negate the power of enchantments that also give toughness, that wouldn't negate the power of the rings. Btw i'd only play 1 tricks in a deck ever, but i play as mana marks as i can get my hands on, even if they are only around for 1 turn they do a good job. All you have to do is guess what they have in their hand based on what they played and what you played, to determine what burns/murder or w.e they have. If 1 turn ago they didn't bounce my 3/3 or kill it i doubt they have it right now as i cast mark on my creature, few people run negate main so fuck it and just go for it.
Sigh, think about it for a second, just think. You needed a very strong mechanic in Hexproof in order to make Growth comfortably playable in M12. I am telling you that is not the case in M13 due to the lack of solid removal; in other words, you can play Growth AND rely on it to do what you need it to do in any given situation, that was not the case in M12 despite the hexproof mechanic.
Do me a favor and list all the instant speed removal/bounce in M13 that most decks can play (splashable) and then do another for M12. Although the very notion that you can play 4 mana enchants 1 or 2 copies should already be indicative of the format. And no, that's not saying the format is slow.
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Nivmagus Elemental is... wow. If you spell gets countered to blocked in any way, you just exile it. Could have interactions with Storm. Negates Hive Mind decks too.
Guildmage looks really nice for Limited. Chaos Imps looks like it just auto-wins some matches too.
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The guy who spoiled Nivmagus already told us there's a way to generate infinite mana with the card and Storm or BSZ someone to death, and built the deck as well. I could see it being playing in Legacy RUG, because it's cheap, and the moment your spell gets countered, oh well, I'll just have the magus om nom it (so in other words, buy a playset of them if they're even remotely reasonable in price). Also, sweet art for the card, and is it just me, or does anyone else think that the elemental looks a lot like Mega Man?
As for Trostani, the best way I've seen so far to break her in half is to use her, Thragtusk, Garruk Relentless, and Thraben Doomsayer as ways to generate tokens from the creature/planeswalker side. Gather the Townsfolk, Midnight Haunting, Increasing Devotion, and Fungal Sprouting are sorcery-speed token generators that are in those colors. Parallel Lives can double token generation, and Champion of Lambholt gets larger for every creature put onto the battlefield, token or not. Another alternate win-con can be Chalice of Life, as once it flips you have a 4 turn clock at the least.
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Getting way too cute. The wwgg is a casual or edh card. Too many problems for token based strategies right now.
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Ahhh, I love the Rakdos Guildmage for limited. I like it quite a bit more than the Golgari or Izzet ones.
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On September 10 2012 14:06 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 13:51 semantics wrote:On September 10 2012 13:16 Judicator wrote:On September 10 2012 11:52 semantics wrote:On September 10 2012 11:46 Judicator wrote:On September 10 2012 11:27 deth2munkies wrote:
His point is that there's little unconditional removal in the set so the rings are good because you don't get 2 for 1'd* that often. Same goes for Mark of the Vampire, Volcanic Strength, and the other enchantments.
*More adequate to describe the enchantments in that way in retrospect, but you're still spending equip mana. Yes. There's reason why I mentioned Titanic Growth. That card was very difficult to play in various situations in M12, but the card is extremely good in green decks in M13. titanic growth fit perfectly fine with scared wolf + trollhides, which was easy to pick up because m12 green was unpopular, it's also just flat out better now in m13 because there are more playable green creatures making green a better color, m13 also plays quicker(although slow decks work in m13 if you set them up right) so trading a card for a decent combat trick works. M13 format wouldn't be so quick at times if answers to creatures wasn't prevalent in spell form. Ok, so you're saying if you had a 3/1 hexproofer that they can chump with any 1/x to make you use titanic growth, then titanic growth is good. Also you're saying that you can afford to play a 3 mana sorcery speed enchant into any open mana in M12. So the question I have to ask you, have you played with Growth in M12 and M13? Edit: I should bring up that you can afford to play Tricks or Mark into open mana more often in M13 than people think. KEY-->troll hide + 3/1 hex proof meant trades meant inevitability on board because they would lose creatures if they wanted to race titanic growth helped get the last hit in. And yes i've played growth plenty in green with a splash of blue M12 i've also played it quite a bit in M13 allowing shit to kill other crap when it was an easy block, turning a creature loss into their creature loss 1 for 1. I rather have a creature + a good trick then a creature + a creature. M12 trollhide was the only thing making green useful the stat boost and regen =p A 5/3 regen hexproof is fucking great in limited, 2 mana for regen isn't too costly for green attack every turn prompt their trades and chumps, don't even need mana up if they just want to race just cast creatures to chump for you and keep attacking using titanic to get past anything with 6 tough or to hit for 9 when the time is right. What they hell are you playing against in M12 where they have mana up every turn and always hitting creatures draws to chump block? The only time you may consider to pause casing troll hide is a heavy blue control deck, else every other color just fucking cast the trollhide onto the 3/1 hexproof. I'm talking limited You can play tricks and mark into open mana, it really just depends on the other persons deck and what your casting it onto. I'd cast tricks onto a sentinel spider 2 turns after it resolves in a heart beat. You must play with people who love to play control but M13 has very valid aggro in limited. That being said not everyone is going to have 2-3 mana open every turn to represent shit that would be in most decks. You're only thinking of removal at instant speed to deal with something on the stack in order to negate the power of enchantments that also give toughness, that wouldn't negate the power of the rings. Btw i'd only play 1 tricks in a deck ever, but i play as mana marks as i can get my hands on, even if they are only around for 1 turn they do a good job. All you have to do is guess what they have in their hand based on what they played and what you played, to determine what burns/murder or w.e they have. If 1 turn ago they didn't bounce my 3/3 or kill it i doubt they have it right now as i cast mark on my creature, few people run negate main so fuck it and just go for it. Sigh, think about it for a second, just think. You needed a very strong mechanic in Hexproof in order to make Growth comfortably playable in M12. I am telling you that is not the case in M13 due to the lack of solid removal; in other words, you can play Growth AND rely on it to do what you need it to do in any given situation, that was not the case in M12 despite the hexproof mechanic. Do me a favor and list all the instant speed removal/bounce in M13 that most decks can play (splashable) and then do another for M12. Although the very notion that you can play 4 mana enchants 1 or 2 copies should already be indicative of the format. And no, that's not saying the format is slow.
M12
U Celestial Purge(only black red) 1W
U Combust(only white blue) 1R
C Doom Blade(non black) 1B
C Fling(sac creature, creature power) 1R
C Shock(2 dmg) R
C Wring Flesh(-3/-1) B
C Incinerate(3 dmg) 1R
C Plummet(only flying) 1G
C Unsummon B
M13
C Chandra's Fury(1 to all creatures)5R
C Divine Verdict(Attacking/Blacking)4W <- granted not on the stack but would work if they attack which they probably would
U Public Execution 5B
U Rain of Blades(1 dmg all creatures attacking) W
C Searing Spear(3 dmg) 1R
C Plummet(only flying) 1G
C Unsummon B
8 vs 7 not counting creature abilities as you seem to be keen on killings thing as they hit the stack.
M12 more flat out destruction but more color sensitive
Now if we count not splash able things(people aren't going to be playing 4 5 color decks and plus it doesn't matter too much if it's splash able it's going to be the same amount in a draft regardless of who gets it, splash able just means one guy could grab them all which means no worries when playing everyone but him.)
M12
C Sorin's Thirst (2dmg 2 life gain) BB
C Chandra's Outrage (4 creature, 2 controller) 2RR
M13
U Cower in Fear (-1/-1 opp creatures) 1BB
R Magmaquake (X creatures w/o flying & planeswalkers) XRR
C Murder 1BB
U Volcanic Geyser (X creature or player) XRR
If we take all of those and think of what is main deckable
M12
C Doom Blade(non black) 1B
C ///Plummet(only flying) 1G(usually not if you're lacking fliers or spiders yes 1 is fine)
C Unsummon B
C Fling(sac creature, creature power) 1R
C Shock(2 dmg) R
C Wring Flesh(-3/-1) B
C Incinerate(3 dmg) 1R
C Sorin's Thirst (2dmg 2 life gain) BB
C Chandra's Outrage (4 creature, 2 controller) 2RR
M13
C Chandra's Fury(1 to all creatures)5R
C Divine Verdict(Attacking/Blacking)4W <- granted not on the stack but would work if they attack which they probably would
U Public Execution 5B
C Murder 1BB
C ///Plummet(only flying) 1G(usually not if you're lacking fliers or spiders yes 1 is fine)
C Unsummon B
C Searing Spear(3 dmg) 1R
R Magmaquake (X creatures w/o flying & planeswalkers) XRR
U Volcanic Geyser (X creature or player) XRR
9 to 9
M12 & M13
249 Total Cards
15 Mythic Rares
53 Rares
60 Uncommon
101 Common
20 Lands
M12 is more splash-able and more common M13 is more utility in terms of power or indiscrimination, personally i like M13's better deals with things i would like to deal with regardless of toughness.
As far as things go at 3+attack/4+tuff
M12 runs 30 creatures
M13 runs 21 creatures
Really i think you think people would play enchantments willynilly and pre combat on their power creatures. Most times i would cast something post combat if i can attack see if they are just waiting for combat to nuke em, else i rather just post combat save myself the trouble, plus i wouldn't cast an enchantment on a guy if they still have like 5 cards in hand and i haven't played any good 3+ power creatures yet. I rather bet they need to top deck answers then just waiting for sweet 2 for 1 situations.
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According to Reddit we have the following card revealed:
Underworld Connections - Enchantment Aura - Enchant Land
1BB
Enchanted Land gets T: Pay 1 Life, draw a card
Turns a land into Phyrexian Arena. Neat. And if you can untap it somehow you get more value.
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On September 10 2012 19:40 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:According to Reddit we have the following card revealed: Underworld Connections - Enchantment Aura - Enchant Land 1BB Enchanted Land gets T: Pay 1 Life, draw a card Turns a land into Phyrexian Arena. Neat. And if you can untap it somehow you get more value.
Arbor Elf.
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Was wondering what use Unleash would have been for (an extra +1/+1 to remove the ability to block didn't sound too good...), but it makes absolute sense on Chaos Imps. Well done, Wizards. 
I assume Nivmagus is good against control decks? Say you have that out and you play an instant or sorcery. Opponent tosses out a Cancel (or equivalent to counter). You exile your spell on the stack and put 2 counters on Nivmagus. You don't have the spell you wanted to play, but they're out an instant, and your creature is stronger. Am I interpreting that right? Or would your own spell not be a legal target for your opponent anymore once you exile it?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wgIYb.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/z9JDO.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9zFQE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xthQp.jpg)
