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Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 05:35:35
March 28 2011 05:34 GMT
#821
Uh... so that description of World PvP sounds exactly like instanced PvP. If you can come and go as you please, then that's not real world PvP.

Is any game going to have open PvP anymore?
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Saithien
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1 Post
March 28 2011 05:38 GMT
#822
I've been a pretty long time lurker of TL, enjoy the community and I stumbled upon this thread and I decided that now may be as good a time as any to register here on the website. I'm incredibly stoked to give GW2 a go, it seems that there is a fairly large number of people who share the same sentiments, and I would love to take the time to experience the new game with you guys here. I look forward to it!
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
March 28 2011 05:49 GMT
#823
Thanks for posting the PAX East dev video. I hadn't seen that through guru.

Can't wait for them to talk about PvP and the last 2 classes (mesmer + eng).
Obelisk7
Profile Joined January 2010
Korea (South)65 Posts
March 28 2011 06:22 GMT
#824
Where you get this "eng" information might I ask On slaught? I'm very very curious >.>
Take Nothing For Granted, For Everything Changes.
irninja
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1220 Posts
March 28 2011 06:30 GMT
#825
On March 28 2011 14:49 On_Slaught wrote:
Thanks for posting the PAX East dev video. I hadn't seen that through guru.

Can't wait for them to talk about PvP and the last 2 classes (mesmer + eng).


Engineer? Interesting. Source?
www.teamlegacy.net | MMO junkies
NoobieOne
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1183 Posts
March 28 2011 07:40 GMT
#826
Our group on GW2 guru is up. If you are a member you can join the group at this link
Deleted User 45971
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
533 Posts
March 28 2011 08:10 GMT
#827
Does anyone else really dislike scaling in games? Oblivion is probably the best example of this with common thieves wearing legendary magic items and having tremendous power just because the player is powerful.

So it won't be exactly like this in GW2 but they still said bosses will scale in power and so will the number of enemies in dynamic events which I personally think breaks immersion and ruins the general sense of achievement. I mean I think that numbers should be static, and it's fine if you can overwhelm an event or simply not have enough people to do it. It adds to the atmosphere and you get the feeling of your own power and such. They also said that this is a core component of the game which is very sad for me to hear. Why does everything have to be equalized and normalized these days? I miss the days of brutal game worlds like Gothic 2
irninja
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1220 Posts
March 28 2011 08:15 GMT
#828
On March 28 2011 17:10 Potatisodlaren wrote:
Does anyone else really dislike scaling in games? Oblivion is probably the best example of this with common thieves wearing legendary magic items and having tremendous power just because the player is powerful.

So it won't be exactly like this in GW2 but they still said bosses will scale in power and so will the number of enemies in dynamic events which I personally think breaks immersion and ruins the general sense of achievement. I mean I think that numbers should be static, and it's fine if you can overwhelm an event or simply not have enough people to do it. It adds to the atmosphere and you get the feeling of your own power and such. They also said that this is a core component of the game which is very sad for me to hear. Why does everything have to be equalized and normalized these days? I miss the days of brutal game worlds like Gothic 2


I think scaling adds a dimension of mystery to the battles you come across. How much fun is it if you know exactly the skills and techniques used in every boss matchup? As groups get larger, the bosses/enemies will throw all sorts of new and exciting tactics at you, that some battles will be different entirely.

Also, how would you deal with zergs in pvp? If lets say one side has 12 members, and the other 23? Without some form of scaling, those on the lesser side would get stomped over and over, regardless of skill, and eventually give up, or worse, quit the game.
www.teamlegacy.net | MMO junkies
NoobieOne
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1183 Posts
March 28 2011 08:25 GMT
#829
hey just noticed that they mentioned the TSL in a thread in GW guru. Definitely encourage it to those people who are interested in GW2 link to the tsl thread is here
KinosJourney2
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden1811 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-28 08:34:34
March 28 2011 08:33 GMT
#830
I loved GW visually, but gameplay wise it was total crap.
I'm probably gonna purchase GW2, but i'm not expecting much from it. But theres potential in it no doubt, just that i think WoW was much more fun than GW as instanced areas was soooooo lame :/

If they add mounts, remove instanced areas, rework the combat mechanics and find a way to actually make pvp enjoyable, i'll love GW2
ocho wrote: EDIT: NEVERMIND, THIS THING HAS APM TECHNOLOGY OMG
Wesso
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands1245 Posts
March 28 2011 08:41 GMT
#831
On March 28 2011 17:33 KinosJourney2 wrote:
I loved GW visually, but gameplay wise it was total crap.
I'm probably gonna purchase GW2, but i'm not expecting much from it. But theres potential in it no doubt, just that i think WoW was much more fun than GW as instanced areas was soooooo lame :/

If they add mounts, remove instanced areas, rework the combat mechanics and find a way to actually make pvp enjoyable, i'll love GW2


No instanced areas in the world, there are instances for your personal storyline and endgame dungeons/raids.

Combat works differently and IMO better (more aiming and dodging/less tab targetting)

Make pvp enjoyable: I have no idea, I'm not a big pvp'er.
NoobieOne
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1183 Posts
March 28 2011 08:44 GMT
#832
there is something called structured pvp in a 5v5 format where it is arena based if that is what you are looking for
Deleted User 45971
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
533 Posts
March 28 2011 08:51 GMT
#833
On March 28 2011 17:15 irninja wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2011 17:10 Potatisodlaren wrote:
Does anyone else really dislike scaling in games? Oblivion is probably the best example of this with common thieves wearing legendary magic items and having tremendous power just because the player is powerful.

So it won't be exactly like this in GW2 but they still said bosses will scale in power and so will the number of enemies in dynamic events which I personally think breaks immersion and ruins the general sense of achievement. I mean I think that numbers should be static, and it's fine if you can overwhelm an event or simply not have enough people to do it. It adds to the atmosphere and you get the feeling of your own power and such. They also said that this is a core component of the game which is very sad for me to hear. Why does everything have to be equalized and normalized these days? I miss the days of brutal game worlds like Gothic 2


I think scaling adds a dimension of mystery to the battles you come across. How much fun is it if you know exactly the skills and techniques used in every boss matchup? As groups get larger, the bosses/enemies will throw all sorts of new and exciting tactics at you, that some battles will be different entirely.

Also, how would you deal with zergs in pvp? If lets say one side has 12 members, and the other 23? Without some form of scaling, those on the lesser side would get stomped over and over, regardless of skill, and eventually give up, or worse, quit the game.


I was talking mainly about PvE. In PvP I agree with you and think scaling have a place there but only if it's instanced. Like making everyone the same level and maybe also scaling gear. But I don't like scaling the power of fewer people up to match the power to the greater number of enemies. I also don't mind something like a randomized skill sets on enemies and randomized skill rotations. Makes it less repetitive and makes you pay attention.

But what I'm talking about is in PvE when the game scales to match the player(s) instead of the player being thrown into a game world where they have to survive and make ends meet and work for themselves and together with others to advance. There are two ways this feeling ends up bothering me, either through scaling or through WoW style area design.

In WoW all zones are roughly the shape of a square with one entrance and one exit. In each zone you start at say lvl 20 mobs and as you go along the predetermined road you are supposed to take mobs will increment with 1-2 levels every 3-5 gather/kill quests. At the end of it they are maybe 30, then in the next zone it's 30-40. Everything is tailored to provide a "streamlined" experience to a player and repeats over and over with updated skins on mobs. I find it poor and lazy design that results in a very very repetitive experience. And it breaks the atmosphere/immersion.

The other way is scaling which I think is even worse than the WoW way. The world is dynamically altered to match the player(s) based on data on player power and previous progress maybe. This in my experience always leads to a very sterile and generic world once you've played for a while. In the beginning you don't notice it but eventually you start seeing patterns in what the game throws at you. This also breaks the atmosphere/immersion for me.

Now I don't know to what extent GW2 has but I find it very worrying that they have it at all, and that it is a core component. The more I read about this game the more it seems like a modern "casual streamlined game to provide a nice experience" instead of a real fantasy game world that you can immerse yourself in. At least on the PvE side. Have yet to read anything substantive on how PvP will work.
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
March 28 2011 08:55 GMT
#834
On March 28 2011 17:41 Wesso wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2011 17:33 KinosJourney2 wrote:
I loved GW visually, but gameplay wise it was total crap.
I'm probably gonna purchase GW2, but i'm not expecting much from it. But theres potential in it no doubt, just that i think WoW was much more fun than GW as instanced areas was soooooo lame :/

If they add mounts, remove instanced areas, rework the combat mechanics and find a way to actually make pvp enjoyable, i'll love GW2


No instanced areas in the world, there are instances for your personal storyline and endgame dungeons/raids.

Combat works differently and IMO better (more aiming and dodging/less tab targetting)

Make pvp enjoyable: I have no idea, I'm not a big pvp'er.


Too bad, i liked the tab targetting and auto-aiming. Made the game more tactical instead of "whoever jumps around like an idiot more wins". Positioning and coordination were the most important skills, you felt more like you are commanding a fight and telling your character what to do, not how to do it. Now the characters probably dumbed down and can't even look at the target by themselves. Well, my hopes for GW2 being any good successor to GW1 are quite low, so i'll probably not be disappointed.

Wesso
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands1245 Posts
March 28 2011 09:48 GMT
#835
On March 28 2011 17:55 Morfildur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 28 2011 17:41 Wesso wrote:
On March 28 2011 17:33 KinosJourney2 wrote:
I loved GW visually, but gameplay wise it was total crap.
I'm probably gonna purchase GW2, but i'm not expecting much from it. But theres potential in it no doubt, just that i think WoW was much more fun than GW as instanced areas was soooooo lame :/

If they add mounts, remove instanced areas, rework the combat mechanics and find a way to actually make pvp enjoyable, i'll love GW2


No instanced areas in the world, there are instances for your personal storyline and endgame dungeons/raids.

Combat works differently and IMO better (more aiming and dodging/less tab targetting)

Make pvp enjoyable: I have no idea, I'm not a big pvp'er.


Too bad, i liked the tab targetting and auto-aiming. Made the game more tactical instead of "whoever jumps around like an idiot more wins". Positioning and coordination were the most important skills, you felt more like you are commanding a fight and telling your character what to do, not how to do it. Now the characters probably dumbed down and can't even look at the target by themselves. Well, my hopes for GW2 being any good successor to GW1 are quite low, so i'll probably not be disappointed.



There still is tab targetting for single target skills/attacks, there is just more AoE that you have to aim. So if that helps a little


Obelisk7
Profile Joined January 2010
Korea (South)65 Posts
March 28 2011 16:03 GMT
#836
On March 28 2011 17:51 Potatisodlaren wrote:
I was talking mainly about PvE. In PvP I agree with you and think scaling have a place there but only if it's instanced. Like making everyone the same level and maybe also scaling gear. But I don't like scaling the power of fewer people up to match the power to the greater number of enemies. I also don't mind something like a randomized skill sets on enemies and randomized skill rotations. Makes it less repetitive and makes you pay attention.


Only the values are scaled. Also bear in mind that even if a newbie is scaled "up" in power, he still won't be as good as a skilled player. Cordinated effort will overcome random pub chaos when it comes to PvP. Also bear in mind that when it comes to PvPing in the PvE setting, its a World vs World vs World format. Nobody is scaled, they come in as themself into The Midst.

Now if your just refering to the scaling in general, there IS instanced content that will not be easy. It's scaled, but requires a skilled group with you in order to tackle the instance.

Dungeons, on the first go, will be in storymode and be easy. If you go in again however, each Dungeon will be "randomly" generated each time you enter aka they programmed different types of stories in that instance you can play through each time. It will be similiar to Heroics in WoW in difficulty, maybe harder, espically if you go in with a full group. Whether its only 1 player, or multiple, it scales its difficulty so the skill of the player can take on that instance and is not a lazy "lawl I scale for fun" moment.

[B]On March 28 2011 17:51 Potatisodlaren wrote:[/B
But what I'm talking about is in PvE when the game scales to match the player(s) instead of the player being thrown into a game world where they have to survive and make ends meet and work for themselves and together with others to advance. There are two ways this feeling ends up bothering me, either through scaling or through WoW style area design.


This will likely be solved by the Dynamic System. The only events revealed to us so far is litterally early and mid-game content. During PAX East they revealed three factions you could join: Order of Whispers, Vigil, and Foundry (forgot their name...I just know they the foundry).

Order of Whispers: Turn enemies and neutral races against the Dragons
Foundry: Go to ancient places, solve puzzles or go through mazes, and find means to defeat the Dragons based on previous history.
Vigil: Big armies clashing against the armies of the Dragons.

Now why is this releveant to this part of your post? Even though events scale, as I mentioned previous its based on a Dynamic system. We don't know what end game content is, and PAX East they gave us the pleasent surprise that is the three factions. Why is this important for your concern? This means that end game content, even though its "scaled", the three factions will play a role in providing the "survive and make ends meet" issue. If factions don't do their job's proper, the Dynamic events they participate in will affect EVERYONE and effort must be made to push the events in favor of the players. I don't honestly believe content is going to stay "easy" just because its scaled. They've already confirmed that Dungeons, though scaled, will still be tough. The sense of accomplishment comes from the experience you have with other players in a event. Whether its five people, or hundreds, you were part of that experience and you can always come back to look for a new experience with the same content.

I'm sure that with each Boss or Mini-boss, there will be plenty to do so you can't do "everything" in one Dynamic event battle. Static bosses, after awhile, everyone learns how to beat them and eventually won't return to the old content. In the way the Guild Wars 2 system works, there is alot more replayability to a event before finally moving on for a player if they so wish. I'm sure some people would be curious how they would fair single-fighting a Boss scaled to them, as well as defeating it with lots of players.

[B]On March 28 2011 17:51 Potatisodlaren wrote:[/B
In WoW all zones are roughly the shape of a square with one entrance and one exit. In each zone you start at say lvl 20 mobs and as you go along the predetermined road you are supposed to take mobs will increment with 1-2 levels every 3-5 gather/kill quests. At the end of it they are maybe 30, then in the next zone it's 30-40. Everything is tailored to provide a "streamlined" experience to a player and repeats over and over with updated skins on mobs. I find it poor and lazy design that results in a very very repetitive experience. And it breaks the atmosphere/immersion.

The other way is scaling which I think is even worse than the WoW way. The world is dynamically altered to match the player(s) based on data on player power and previous progress maybe. This in my experience always leads to a very sterile and generic world once you've played for a while. In the beginning you don't notice it but eventually you start seeing patterns in what the game throws at you. This also breaks the atmosphere/immersion for me.


From what I've read and watched on videos, it only scales to the number of players. The difficulty of doing the event, whether solo with with many, does not actually change. The Boss's Difficulty scales to the number of active players in the fight but not in like a "all bosses will be the same lvl" sort of way. Each boss will get more and more difficult as you progress through the game, and based on their own difficulty they will then scale with that to the number of players. The last boss will still be a crap load harder then the first boss no matter what, and you amplify that fact with more players.

[B]On March 28 2011 17:51 Potatisodlaren wrote:[/B
Now I don't know to what extent GW2 has but I find it very worrying that they have it at all, and that it is a core component. The more I read about this game the more it seems like a modern "casual streamlined game to provide a nice experience" instead of a real fantasy game world that you can immerse yourself in. At least on the PvE side. Have yet to read anything substantive on how PvP will work.


If I've read your post right, I believe they are addressing your concerns with the Dungeons and how they handle end-game content. It is streamlined for the casual yes, but I think its only for up to mid-game. Once players join a faction, things become alot more epic.
Take Nothing For Granted, For Everything Changes.
Obelisk7
Profile Joined January 2010
Korea (South)65 Posts
March 28 2011 16:10 GMT
#837
On March 28 2011 17:55 Morfildur wrote:
Too bad, i liked the tab targetting and auto-aiming. Made the game more tactical instead of "whoever jumps around like an idiot more wins". Positioning and coordination were the most important skills, you felt more like you are commanding a fight and telling your character what to do, not how to do it. Now the characters probably dumbed down and can't even look at the target by themselves. Well, my hopes for GW2 being any good successor to GW1 are quite low, so i'll probably not be disappointed.



You will not be allowed to spam the Dodge in the manner I think you worry. Dodging takes energy, as seen in any Thief videos you watch, and I'm sure its the same for other classes. If a player does spam Dodge alot, in the battle overall they will be mana deprived and unable to contribute to the fight.

As for Positioning and Coordination, its actually more important now with. Because the combat will be more movement based, dynamic, and volatile you have to think on-your-feet to make sure you don't overextend and try to break the formations of your enemies. Making sure you have situational awareness is key, espically since you have to aim a good number of your skills rather then just targeting enemies.

It encourages players not to simply to "rotations" on their skill bar and to be passive during a fight. It actively engages the player in the fight, and forces you to think "in the moment" to see what skills will be needed to what situation.
Take Nothing For Granted, For Everything Changes.
irninja
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1220 Posts
March 28 2011 21:38 GMT
#838
Well said obelisk! I think the main points to pull from that is the new system encourages movement and interaction rather than playing with one hand running the same rotation, and the other hand eating chips. You have to be on your game to play successfully.
www.teamlegacy.net | MMO junkies
Forester
Profile Joined September 2010
United States116 Posts
March 29 2011 02:59 GMT
#839
Wow, this guild has grown. I applied a couple months back (can probably find my post somewhere in the nethers of this thread) but I went inactive because of that dry-spell of GW2 info. Just got the email about the forum move and the Guru group and I definitely want to go active again. Should I reapply over on the forums or should I find my original post?
The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.
irninja
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1220 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-29 06:40:20
March 29 2011 06:38 GMT
#840
On March 29 2011 11:59 Forester wrote:
Wow, this guild has grown. I applied a couple months back (can probably find my post somewhere in the nethers of this thread) but I went inactive because of that dry-spell of GW2 info. Just got the email about the forum move and the Guru group and I definitely want to go active again. Should I reapply over on the forums or should I find my original post?


Yea, we've grown quite a bit, adding more and more ex-pro and semi-pro players to the roster, and a lot of other serious mmo players into the mix. Some of these guys are getting pretty hardcore into developing builds and such, using the info from the betas being played at PAX etc. Its all fun though until the real beta begins, but from my perspective, its an eye opener; seeing all of the knowledge these guys carry from GW1 and other MMOs. I have to step back and take a lot of it in even now.

Reapplying is probably the best option, following it with a few posts every week or so to keep yourself in the "active" status. Were also on our own teamspeak as well, and obviously pretty dedicated to the latest SC2 Tournaments and TL in general, so you can catch us talking about/playing sc2/TL every night. Good way to meet everyone. Most of us are diamond/masters, but we have a few that are at lower leagues as well.





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