On August 11 2011 01:39 howerpower wrote: I'm really surprised by how many people think that real money trading is okay, even after years of Blizzard stance against it.
It's the difference between an underground, black market and having everything out in the open, regulated and controlled. Anyone who supports the legalization of marijuana should be able to see the parallels.
What? I never knew Marijuana could make me more powerful in the real world... I can see how you can put the two together but the thing is buying items off the RMAH causes my character to become stronger and more powerful then yours just because I have more money they you.
I agree having it as a black market thing isn't good but it also limits the people who are going to do it and for the most part people get caught and banned for doing it. There might be the few people walking around with bought gear but for the most part its going to be legit people playing the game without advantage from having more money then another person. Sure some people can get all that good gear without paying but they actually have to spend a good amount of time in the game to actually get better and earn it.
I have a fulltime job and I could easily buy anything I wanted in Diablo 3 from the RMAH but I just don't like the idea of being able to buy my self towards being better. Its like saying in starcraft 2 I won't bother playing for more then 30minutes a day then just buy lessons everyday instead of actually playing longer. It will probably make you better then the average person who simply plays for a few hours a day instead of only a short amount of time.
Should dedication and time spent playing be eliminated by simply just paying your way to greatness instead of working hard at something to achieve it?
So, basically, your entire argument against RMAH is that in Diablo 2, you can cover your eyes and pretend that nobody else is doing it. And Diablo 3 is terrible because the official RMAH shattered your illusions about how easy and widespread buying items on unofficial channels really is.
What? No... not at all my argument is that you're buying power in Diablo 3 and blizzard is actively supporting it. I know people bought power in Diablo 2 but then again they never had a competitive PvP system which they're trying to implement in Diablo 3.
There is no competitive PvP in Diablo 3. That's why they're not supporting it with a ladder. It's meant to be a side game, not an e-sports.
People bought power in Diablo 2. It's better for the game that Blizzard will be regulating it somewhat rather than not paying attention at all.
Well when they boast about their PvP system to me it seems like they're trying to make it competitive. WoW has a PvP system which is essentially the same as Diablo 3's PvP system. The WoW one isn't really a E-Sport but its still competitive just like the Diablo 3 one is going to be.
Diablo 3 won't be competitive because people will buy their way into dominating other people
this would happen whether there was RMAH or not though
Yeah but couldn't you say the same thing about WoW? People can buy characters from illegal means. Does that mean that WoW cannot be a competitive game as well? Even though there's already competitive WoW PvP tournys
Couldn't you say the same about TF2? because people can buy weapons from the mann co store means that TF2 cannot be a competitive game?
Isn't softcore for casual players anyway? It seems like people argue against RMAH saying that it caters to casuals with money too much. In hardcore, the way that people who take the game seriously and are good at it play, there is no RMAH, right? So what's the issue?
I think you guys are worrying too much about a game type that you won't even be playing.
Blizzard already made it clear multiple times that they do not plan for D3 to be a highly competitive e-sport.
Check at 9:40
That interview clarifies it, and of course you can do some google-fu to find plenty of Blizzard interviews and posts that further clarify it. PvP is a side game for fun, not for e-sports.
In all these situations the people who say that buying power will ruin pvp are the one's who were going to get owned anyways. Anyone with a competitive bone in their body loves stomping on people with unfair advantages.
On August 11 2011 07:17 NotJack wrote: In all these situations the people who say that buying power will ruin pvp are the one's who were going to get owned anyways. Anyone with a competitive bone in their body loves stomping on people with unfair advantages.
That's true, but you don't know who bought the advantages in D3. For all you know they've earned everything legitimately, except in a few rare cases where someone gets a reputation for being 'that guy that bought that weapon for some crazy amount of money'.
Inevitably it's going to lead to a PvP culture where the losers always blame the winners for buying their stuff. But hey, that's much easier on the psyche to deal with than admitting you got outplayed. It's an interesting psychological effect of F2P games with purchasable power (when you know they bought it). You love it when you beat someone who had a paid advantage over you, and you easily shrug off a loss, because you 'know' you would have beaten them if they didn't have it.
On August 11 2011 07:17 NotJack wrote: In all these situations the people who say that buying power will ruin pvp are the one's who were going to get owned anyways. Anyone with a competitive bone in their body loves stomping on people with unfair advantages.
That's true, but you don't know who bought the advantages in D3. For all you know they've earned everything legitimately, except in a few rare cases where someone gets a reputation for being 'that guy that bought that weapon for some crazy amount of money'.
Inevitably it's going to lead to a PvP culture where the losers always blame the winners for buying their stuff. But hey, that's much easier on the psyche to deal with than admitting you got outplayed. It's an interesting psychological effect of F2P games with purchasable power (when you know they bought it). You love it when you beat someone who had a paid advantage over you, and you easily shrug off a loss, because you 'know' you would have beaten them if they didn't have it.
1) I don't care if they bought their stuff or not, neither will people who can play the game well.
2) Only the people who want to be really good but have hit a ceiling will be making pathetic excuses like that.
These aren't problems of the game, just problems of nerds being nerdy.
I respect TB as a caster, and many of his opinions are spot on... however I feel like he has never played diablo, has no idea how this RMAH is really going to work, and is at this point in time talking out his ass.
No, I'm just the kind of person that believes in actually playing the game you want to get rewards out of, not being able to buy the best gear in the game and feeding Blizzard a ton of cash in the process.
What, you think Blizzard should capitulate just because people are fucking retards who insist on cheating at everything? Let's go the whole hog, buy your way into Grand Masters in SC2, buy extra supply with real cash! Where does it end?
Sorry, back in my day we didn't mix up the words play and pay.
To me it sounds like people want to play "dress up" and pay money for new items to "dress up" with. I totally agree with you TB, I think the entire point of the RMAH is retarded. What do you think is going to happen to all the best items in the game? They're sure as hell not going to be available for trade on the gold auction house when people know they can sell it for actual money. So essentially all the best items in the game you're going to have to either buy from the RMAH or you're going to have to get lucky and find from drops.
edit: anyway glad that Path of Exile beta is coming out today I hope that game stomps all over Diablo 3. Free to play but they've already stated that they're not going to be selling "power"
Young sir, Gold = Money. Therefore, if someone sells the best weapon for 1,000,000,000 gold, he can take his dandy ass to right back to where he came from and sell that 1,000,000,000 gold for money. Taxed of course. THIS BRINGS ME TO TOTAL FREAKING BISCUIT:O Look man, quit bashing blizzard and scrubs on the forums, you are better than that. Also, Mr. Biscuit (whom I love to listen to while I watch starcraft), The aforementioned Blizzard 3xTax is The way to go. No other way.
If they didn't take a ridiculous share of the "biscuit", if you will, then others would most certainly take advantage instead. Better them than the evil script kiddies.
There are several quirks in the RMAH system that, in tandem, completely discourage the use of hacks/bots for personal gain. I mean, if I wasn't so baked I'd write down every stupid thing they said about the system and if you put them all in the same thought bubble, its a paper tastic. Not only is hacking discouraged with the functions themselves, but with the extra cash they will most certainly keep the "money printing machine" rolling by eliminating hackers. The fact is, d3 is not LoL or sc2. Its a new game, with a new system and we will have to wait and see if everyone's favorite company can keep there machine well oiled. /herp
I noticed a lot of people bringing up League of Legends as an example of a pay-to-play game. I actually think this is a pretty good example because of LoL's rune system.
The rune system in LoL is basically a straight-up power boost. It increases the stats of your champions, giving them better laning, combat, and jungle abilities. It's almost impossible for a lot of champions to reliably jungle if they don't have runes, so they're very important to have. A person with money can buy IP boosts in order to get runes faster, so in a sense they are paying for power. Despite all this, the pay-for-power rune system didn't break LoL for the following reasons:
1: Everybody can get the runes they need over time just by playing. Even if a person uses IP boosts to get them faster, everyone else can still get them eventually. 2: There's no way to tell who bought their runes/champions and who didn't. It's not worth finding out for most people, so nobody ever complains about it. 3: The players who are genuinely skilled are still going to win the most and get all the "e-fame".
Pretty much all of these things apply just as much to Diablo 3, so I see no real issue about it. In addition, reason #3 is something really important that I want to emphasize on. People keep acting like a rich kid is going to just buy a character and win against everyone he faces, and that pretty much never happens. You can buy WoW accounts, D2 accounts, LoL accounts, and so on. Yet in every game, the players who get on the top are always the ones who truly skilled. Nobody remembers, or even knows about the rich kid who e-bayed his account, but they will remember the people who get world firsts in WoW, or the people who mastered the economy in D2, and etc., etc.
And not only that, the fact that D3 probably won't have a duping problems means that the best items are going to be pretty rare. If by chance, a super geared character or awesome item is put on sale, you can be assured it's going to cost crapload of money. Only a small portion of the populace is going to be able to buy 100% of the items they need, so why worry so much about the very rich .01% of the playerbase?
I respect TB as a caster, and many of his opinions are spot on... however I feel like he has never played diablo, has no idea how this RMAH is really going to work, and is at this point in time talking out his ass.
No, I'm just the kind of person that believes in actually playing the game you want to get rewards out of, not being able to buy the best gear in the game and feeding Blizzard a ton of cash in the process.
What, you think Blizzard should capitulate just because people are fucking retards who insist on cheating at everything? Let's go the whole hog, buy your way into Grand Masters in SC2, buy extra supply with real cash! Where does it end?
Sorry, back in my day we didn't mix up the words play and pay.
To me it sounds like people want to play "dress up" and pay money for new items to "dress up" with. I totally agree with you TB, I think the entire point of the RMAH is retarded. What do you think is going to happen to all the best items in the game? They're sure as hell not going to be available for trade on the gold auction house when people know they can sell it for actual money. So essentially all the best items in the game you're going to have to either buy from the RMAH or you're going to have to get lucky and find from drops.
edit: anyway glad that Path of Exile beta is coming out today I hope that game stomps all over Diablo 3. Free to play but they've already stated that they're not going to be selling "power"
Young sir, Gold = Money. Therefore, if someone sells the best weapon for 1,000,000,000 gold, he can take his dandy ass to right back to where he came from and sell that 1,000,000,000 gold for money. Taxed of course. THIS BRINGS ME TO TOTAL FREAKING BISCUIT:O Look man, quit bashing blizzard and scrubs on the forums, you are better than that. Also, Mr. Biscuit (whom I love to listen to while I watch starcraft), The aforementioned Blizzard 3xTax is The way to go. No other way.
If they didn't take a ridiculous share of the "biscuit", if you will, then others would most certainly take advantage instead. Better them than the evil script kiddies.
There are several quirks in the RMAH system that, in tandem, completely discourage the use of hacks/bots for personal gain. I mean, if I wasn't so baked I'd write down every stupid thing they said about the system and if you put them all in the same thought bubble, its a paper tastic. Not only is hacking discouraged with the functions themselves, but with the extra cash they will most certainly keep the "money printing machine" rolling by eliminating hackers. The fact is, d3 is not LoL or sc2. Its a new game, with a new system and we will have to wait and see if everyone's favorite company can keep there machine well oiled. /herp
Exactly, all these little details work together as a system, they're not ment to work isolated. You need to attack the whole system when you try to criticize it.
It's an awesome approach by Blizzard that you won't get unless you got the brains, I'm sorry everyone else.
All chit-chat about the game aside....anyone else pissed off they announced a beta (which we all knew was coming at some point) but didn't release a date? Whats the point? Hype?
On August 11 2011 08:38 RevRich wrote: All chit-chat about the game aside....anyone else pissed off they announced a beta (which we all knew was coming at some point) but didn't release a date? Whats the point? Hype?
First I was getting really hyped up about the beta. I even played D2 again to "prepare" a bit, but the waiting kills me right now and the fact that there is no date announced yet annoyes me.
There's only one way to stamp out the RMAH, and that is to make it impossible to trade. Blizzard has no choice but to embrace this. Diablo 2 was infested with this, and you can see it in shops like D2Items, or whatever. Or fire up a Diablo 2 right now and try to create a public game. Your game will be instantly filled with bots spamming advertisements about buying items, etc etc.
What a lot of people don't understand is that free listings in the RMAH actually DESTROYS gold farmers. If you look at Diablo 2, other than trading on d2jsp (which still takes time), there's no easy avenue to get the items you want, hence the proliferation of item shops. You'll also note, that there needs to be a lot more buyers than there are sellers for gold farming to be profitable. However, when EVERYONE gets a free listing, that means almost EVERYONE will be competing in the AH, driving down prices. The more gold farmers there are, the lower the prices drop, and the harder it is to make a profit. The winners in this scheme are the casuals (who make free money) and the buyers ( who get cheap prices). It'll be the gold farmers that lose, and end up paying Blizzard the most.
Not to mention, playing the Auction House will be a lot of fun, especially if its done with real money. (Like playing Poker with real money)
What would make people think D3's pvp will in any way be competitive or esport worthy? D2's was nothing more than a fun distraction and you needed top gear to dominate although you could still kill terrible players with mediocre gear (obviously). From the sounds of it D3's will be the same. And this suprises people? Im starting to think that most people complaining in this thread never played d2 or dont know the type of game it was d:
On August 11 2011 09:07 antelope591 wrote: Im starting to think that most people complaining in this thread never played d2 or dont know the type of game it was d:
That's most likely entirely correct. I think half the people against what d3 has shown so far are just trolling, and the other half are just clueless or jaded on what type of game it is.
On August 11 2011 09:07 antelope591 wrote: Im starting to think that most people complaining in this thread never played d2 or dont know the type of game it was d:
That's most likely entirely correct. I think half the people against what d3 has shown so far are just trolling, and the other half are just clueless or jaded on what type of game it is.
Let's not forget those people who played D2 for whom no possible game would be satisfactory.
On August 11 2011 09:07 antelope591 wrote: Im starting to think that most people complaining in this thread never played d2 or dont know the type of game it was d:
That's most likely entirely correct. I think half the people against what d3 has shown so far are just trolling, and the other half are just clueless or jaded on what type of game it is.
I couldn't agree more. Eventually people will realize that 1) PvP is not what the game is centered around, and 2) It doesn't matter if people buy things with their own money because it doesn't affect you in any negative manner.
look, the game WILL be centered around pvp just like modern d2 is, that is inevitable.
the guys that have pve conquered and are geared up, there is nothing else left to accomplish than pvp, making pvp the ultimate ends, and pve the means to reach that ends.
On August 11 2011 11:12 xarthaz wrote: look, the game WILL be centered around pvp just like modern d2 is, that is inevitable.
the guys that have pve conquered and are geared up, there is nothing else left to accomplish than pvp, making pvp the ultimate ends, and pve the means to reach that ends.
So, it'll take the better part of a few years before everyone grinds their way to boredom with the game, but when there's a handful of die hards still playing, obsessed at finding something to do with the game, it's will be CENTERED around PvP. Therefore, Blizzard must do everything they can to satisfy them, NOW!
I will be frigging damned if the general playerbase gave a flying turd about PvP in Diablo 2 in the first few years. A small handful of diehards does not the playerbase make.
On August 11 2011 11:12 xarthaz wrote: look, the game WILL be centered around pvp just like modern d2 is, that is inevitable.
the guys that have pve conquered and are geared up, there is nothing else left to accomplish than pvp, making pvp the ultimate ends, and pve the means to reach that ends.
Those "die hard" pvpers spend waaay more time gathering their perfect set of items than they do actually pvping. Then they get bored after a week and start working to gear their next perfect pvp char.
EPT
