On August 10 2011 10:07 xarthaz wrote: D3 will have easy item content. Just like WoTLK WoW with a lot of epics. The point is, you get the items easily anyway.
Its not a Korean Grind-MMO. The era of such games in western nations is over anyway- You dont need to work like a mad man for good items any more. As such, the auction house will be more light hearted, cheap for-fun item transfer without much competitive edge related to it due to easiness of content.
do you work for blizzard?
how do u know this
It makes sense. In D2, endgame gear was extremely cheap. Torches and runewords with low stats were sometimes given away for free. You can play 100% of D2 content solely using freebies people drop. What costed lots of money were items with good stats on them. They were not needed for pve, but people liked to possess them.
I expect D3 to be the same. Low stat endgame gear would be tossed around like candy on halloween, and you can beat everything with it, but well statted gear will still be worth quite a bit for people who like maxing out their character.
items were given away because of the sheer amount of botting & duping that occurs in Diablo 2
if Blizzard actually puts out some effort in stopping duping/botting, then Diablo 3 is not going to get anywhere close to the item deflation that occurred in Diablo 2
Exactly. It's not like every other mob in hell would be dropping Windforces and Grandfathers. Sometimes people seem to forget how the game was actually supposed to work when cheating didn't enter the equation.
You are totally correct. Everyone is acting so close-minded, formulating arguments while completely disregarding simple facts regarding our current Diablo 3 situation. Blizzard didn't give a crap if you decided to bot and make a measly 200 dollars. The fact is Botting in d3 will have immense consequences so do not think for a second it will go unchecked.
EDIT:
On August 10 2011 11:40 NotSorry wrote: measly 200? I know a small group of people in school were pulling in 1-2k a week running bots in d2, and others who have lived the last 5+ years off of solely botting wow
It has come to my attention that your faquaintances contributed greatly to the destruction of a virtual economy turned real. With the introduction of the RMAH, I am quite sure these people will need to get a job assuming it works (which I think it will) and that it will be migrated to wow. Death to the e-sports killers
Low roll torches and runewords were given away or sold cheaply so often because the people trying to get good rolls needed to get rid of their extras to make room. They were powerful items to the "common man" sure, but that's how the market went.
But even without botting, there were plenty of uniques that were often farmed and little desired. In D3, instead of literally throwing them back on the ground, people will sell them for dirt cheap or cube them towards better stuff. Anyone ever tried to get their hands on a rare item that everyone else would throw away?
As long as bots aren't so widespread that the general public is using them, we'll be fine. I see no reason why they would do a worse job of it than in WoW, where farmer bots are at best a minor nuisance and only drive market prices of common items down through volume.
measly 200? I know a small group of people in school were pulling in 1-2k a week running bots in d2, and others who have lived the last 5+ years off of solely botting wow
On August 10 2011 10:07 xarthaz wrote: D3 will have easy item content. Just like WoTLK WoW with a lot of epics. The point is, you get the items easily anyway.
Its not a Korean Grind-MMO. The era of such games in western nations is over anyway- You dont need to work like a mad man for good items any more. As such, the auction house will be more light hearted, cheap for-fun item transfer without much competitive edge related to it due to easiness of content.
do you work for blizzard?
how do u know this
It makes sense. In D2, endgame gear was extremely cheap. Torches and runewords with low stats were sometimes given away for free. You can play 100% of D2 content solely using freebies people drop. What costed lots of money were items with good stats on them. They were not needed for pve, but people liked to possess them.
I expect D3 to be the same. Low stat endgame gear would be tossed around like candy on halloween, and you can beat everything with it, but well statted gear will still be worth quite a bit for people who like maxing out their character.
items were given away because of the sheer amount of botting & duping that occurs in Diablo 2
if Blizzard actually puts out some effort in stopping duping/botting, then Diablo 3 is not going to get anywhere close to the item deflation that occurred in Diablo 2
Botting and duping caused item deflation because the rate that items were created plus the decrease of item demand due to players quitting was greater than the rate of items destroyed through account expiring. Now the effect of botting and duping will be replaced with RMAH. RMAH will do two things - players will quit over time, and when they do, they'll be inclined to sell all their items, even if ridiculously underpriced, also, RMAH will cause a lot of people to grind like crazy. This will cause the number of endgame items in the market to increase at a very high rate. The only demand to counteract this increase is from players making new characters. I can't speak for the entire D2 community, but when I made a new character, I never traded for low stat items. I didn't feel the need to slowly upgrade my gear a bit at a time like I did for my very first character. I only wore gear that I mfed myself, or high stat gear that I traded for. Even if I'm the only one that did this, I still don't think people making new characters will counteract people dumping their gear before quitting and people grinding like crazy. Because of this, I still think low stat endgame gear will be extremely cheap in the long run.
On August 10 2011 10:07 xarthaz wrote: D3 will have easy item content. Just like WoTLK WoW with a lot of epics. The point is, you get the items easily anyway.
Its not a Korean Grind-MMO. The era of such games in western nations is over anyway- You dont need to work like a mad man for good items any more. As such, the auction house will be more light hearted, cheap for-fun item transfer without much competitive edge related to it due to easiness of content.
do you work for blizzard?
how do u know this
It makes sense. In D2, endgame gear was extremely cheap. Torches and runewords with low stats were sometimes given away for free. You can play 100% of D2 content solely using freebies people drop. What costed lots of money were items with good stats on them. They were not needed for pve, but people liked to possess them.
I expect D3 to be the same. Low stat endgame gear would be tossed around like candy on halloween, and you can beat everything with it, but well statted gear will still be worth quite a bit for people who like maxing out their character.
items were given away because of the sheer amount of botting & duping that occurs in Diablo 2
if Blizzard actually puts out some effort in stopping duping/botting, then Diablo 3 is not going to get anywhere close to the item deflation that occurred in Diablo 2
Botting and duping caused item deflation because the rate that items were created plus the decrease of item demand due to players quitting was greater than the rate of items destroyed through account expiring. Now the effect of botting and duping will be replaced with RMAH. RMAH will do two things - players will quit over time, and when they do, they'll be inclined to sell all their items, even if ridiculously underpriced, also, RMAH will cause a lot of people to grind like crazy. This will cause the number of endgame items in the market to increase at a very high rate. The only demand to counteract this increase is from players making new characters. I can't speak for the entire D2 community, but when I made a new character, I never traded for low stat items. I didn't feel the need to slowly upgrade my gear a bit at a time like I did for my very first character. I only wore gear that I mfed myself, or high stat gear that I traded for. Even if I'm the only one that did this, I still don't think people making new characters will counteract people dumping their gear before quitting and people grinding like crazy. Because of this, I still think low stat endgame gear will be extremely cheap in the long run.
You can use the same logic for low levels in WoW, except it's excemplified because of the higher variability of item drops. Just like how someone at lvl 20 in warcraft would want some nice greens with str, a lvl 20 in necro would want to find items that have +1 to summoning in every slot, which are much more rare.
While the difficulty is a big variable here, in D2 there's always been a big barrier from normal to NM (nm to hell is bad too but by then you usually have some nice gear for your build). While things like dexterity won't be a big issue, there may be significant level ranged when jumping up in difficulty that could make a lvl 30 item more expensive than a lvl 34 item. Basically the market trends will be based on the player demand which is based on the game's demand.
The original point still stands no matter the difficulty though; even though people in WoW know the gear isn't going to last long, they don't want to slog through stuff they've already done, or just want to stomp it with really good gear for the level. The same should be true in D3.
On August 10 2011 10:07 xarthaz wrote: D3 will have easy item content. Just like WoTLK WoW with a lot of epics. The point is, you get the items easily anyway.
Its not a Korean Grind-MMO. The era of such games in western nations is over anyway- You dont need to work like a mad man for good items any more. As such, the auction house will be more light hearted, cheap for-fun item transfer without much competitive edge related to it due to easiness of content.
do you work for blizzard?
how do u know this
It makes sense. In D2, endgame gear was extremely cheap. Torches and runewords with low stats were sometimes given away for free. You can play 100% of D2 content solely using freebies people drop. What costed lots of money were items with good stats on them. They were not needed for pve, but people liked to possess them.
I expect D3 to be the same. Low stat endgame gear would be tossed around like candy on halloween, and you can beat everything with it, but well statted gear will still be worth quite a bit for people who like maxing out their character.
that is bcuz of the BOTS massing on servers. Imagine D2 w/o bots runewords are pratically non-existed before latest patch that improved high rune drop rates
The botting will decrease and the duping too. However, there will be no "ladder resets" thing in Diablo 3. People will still play the game and it will only be a matter of time before the economy is banans. The best replay value in Diablo 2 was the resets because then it started all over on a blank sheet.
On August 10 2011 19:19 Firewood wrote: The botting will decrease and the duping too. However, there will be no "ladder resets" thing in Diablo 3. People will still play the game and it will only be a matter of time before the economy is banans. The best replay value in Diablo 2 was the resets because then it started all over on a blank sheet.
Of course there will be inflation over time, it's like that in a real economy also. The developers have gone to great lengths to try and make gold the standard currency as well as create a lot of gold sinks in the game. I would wait until we've at least seen the full game before making absolute statements like that.
Hello everyone, Would like to ask if there would be some people interested in making clan/guild in D3 once it ll be released. Clan would be consisted of players of top tier of skill, but purpose wouldn't be only beating game but being consistently on top. Therefore there would be access to top gears which could be sold on AH for real money. Of course depending on difficulty there would be possibility of making good money ( depends where you live ). I'm just asking if there are some people who have been thinking about and if there is some will to make such community. If there will be good response I might make different thread, clean and formal for this. But first consider that everyone is most likely thinking same about making money in D3, it wont be that easy, and I personally think that only best players can make any good amount of it.
On August 10 2011 23:02 Jsanko wrote: But first consider that everyone is most likely thinking same about making money in D3, it wont be that easy, and I personally think that only best players can make any good amount of it.
Feel free to PM me.
I am not thinking about making money in D3. And i am pretty sure most people will not be hoping to make loads of money from D3. Consider your competetion.
On August 10 2011 23:02 Jsanko wrote: Hello everyone, Would like to ask if there would be some people interested in making clan/guild in D3 once it ll be released. Clan would be consisted of players of top tier of skill, but purpose wouldn't be only beating game but being consistently on top. Therefore there would be access to top gears which could be sold on AH for real money. Of course depending on difficulty there would be possibility of making good money ( depends where you live ). I'm just asking if there are some people who have been thinking about and if there is some will to make such community. If there will be good response I might make different thread, clean and formal for this. But first consider that everyone is most likely thinking same about making money in D3, it wont be that easy, and I personally think that only best players can make any good amount of it.
Feel free to PM me.
I don't see what the point would be to be honest.
A team of Starcrafters can compete in tournaments and a guild of WoW players have to bind together to defeat content.
The starcraft players learn off each other and improve from that.
What would be the point of that in Diablo? Diablo is not probably never will be a game of skill. It's a time consuming game, that's it. A group of pro diablo players can't do things that bad players can't do. They might do a faster baal run but the only reason someone has trouble killing Baal for example is if their gear is too low. You don't need to combo, just spam and you only need to know a proper build wich is all over the net for every possible style.
The diablo skill cap is so low that i can't see what "pro diablo" players could achieve by banding together.
Maybe i ain't down with the scene and it's really hardcore but i remember clearing the game on hell difficulty (diablo 2) as a druid without really knowing wtf i was doing. I doubt i was a diablo prodigy.
On August 10 2011 23:02 Jsanko wrote: Hello everyone, Would like to ask if there would be some people interested in making clan/guild in D3 once it ll be released. Clan would be consisted of players of top tier of skill, but purpose wouldn't be only beating game but being consistently on top. Therefore there would be access to top gears which could be sold on AH for real money. Of course depending on difficulty there would be possibility of making good money ( depends where you live ). I'm just asking if there are some people who have been thinking about and if there is some will to make such community. If there will be good response I might make different thread, clean and formal for this. But first consider that everyone is most likely thinking same about making money in D3, it wont be that easy, and I personally think that only best players can make any good amount of it.
Feel free to PM me.
I don't see what the point would be to be honest.
A team of Starcrafters can compete in tournaments and a guild of WoW players have to bind together to defeat content.
The starcraft players learn off each other and improve from that.
What would be the point of that in Diablo? Diablo is not probably never will be a game of skill. It's a time consuming game, that's it. A group of pro diablo players can't do things that bad players can't do. They might do a faster baal run but the only reason someone has trouble killing Baal for example is if their gear is too low. You don't need to combo, just spam and you only need to know a proper build wich is all over the net for every possible style.
The diablo skill cap is so low that i can't see what "pro diablo" players could achieve by banding together.
Maybe i ain't down with the scene and it's really hardcore but i remember clearing the game on hell difficulty (diablo 2) as a druid without really knowing wtf i was doing. I doubt i was a diablo prodigy.
The skill cap in D2 wasn't nearly as low as people think, and there was a very [niche] competitive scene.
And about your last paragraph: Isn't that like saying "The BW skill cap can't be that high if I had no problem beating the single player."
Edit: Granted, it probably won't ever be a viable e-sport for a number of reasons, but it's not because of the skill ceiling being too low.
Oh I get it, it's too dangerous to publicly state their name. Well I guess I have no choice but to believe you now.
Dude just fucking google "diablo 2 hacks". EoNW, Hacks, Sector, Freedom, redvex, blizzhackers, and then there's d2jsp which, while legitimate now (and that's only because Tolberg's bot got patched and he can't make a new one), used to be based on - wait for it - the d2jsp-bot. Not to mention that hundreds of very active private but public communities like blue moon, wtf, ihatepk, and tppk.
I'm not sure if explicitly saying hacking sites is allowed on TL, so all the above is just shorthand and isn't the full name (ie missing something like "clan" or "diablo" or "d2" to it).
I mean how naive are you? Even most non-hackers are aware of these websites, they provide a lot of resources to a game that Blizzard has abandoned.
Bots are scum, and are to be eliminated. Just like D2, there is no mercy to be shown to them. The chat command exploits, the lag drop, pking, whatever it takes, it is necessary to eliminate them.
1. They steal our items, so we cant take them ourselves 2. Saturate market -> hard working working class D3 players cant get a decent return for their labour 3. Fuel the greed engine, ruin scarcity and joy of discovery of the unknown
Yea. Sort of. Botting actually allows for lower level players and people who don't MF 6+ hours every day the chance to get half decent gear. While getting 100% perfect stats gear with perfect item attributes on items that you character doesn't even need (ie perfect defense shako for a sorc) may not be possible for everyone, with botting at least everyone can afford a buriza bowa, which is about 80% as good as the best bow in the game, or a occulus, which is about 80% as good as the best sorc item in the game.
It gives casuals a chance to actually enjoy the game. Not to mention, it also lets most people have at least some access to epic gear. I would say botting is a good thing, you know how ridiculously rare a Zod rune is? Even if the majority of the lvl 90+ community on the server has at least one bot (many had multiple bots running at a time) on at least 6 hours a day, they may find a single Zod rune in a week. And actually, that's exactly how it is on HC, where level 60's are on the ladder even after a year.
Discovery still exists in the game regardless of bots. It doesn't matter what bots do to ruin the economy, +1 skill charms drop often enough, and anyone can use them. It doesn't matter how rich you are, sometimes the best gear is only kinda rare, meaning most people will find them once in a while.
Botting just made gear accessible for casuals while allowing higher end players the ability to provide for themselves in a game where there was no population to support a community. If there wasn't botting, there would be no way in hell that anyone would play Hardcore to this day, when everyone has quit. I would say there were only about 200-300 active people in 2007 on US East Hardcore Expansion, so I can't imagine what it's like now.
It didn't really hurt anyone, because while for some people it meant that the items they found would be traded for less value, they gained much, much more from because they could purchase gear for much cheaper. There was no way in hell that anyone could get a burizon for free, or an occulus for a few perfect gems, if botting or duping didn't exist.
I'm not trying to defend botting, I'm indifferent to it. I botted at times, I've even duped, and other times, I didn't, even when I could have. I was never part of any big wave of botters/dupers, ie like the big dupe that was released in 06 that blizzard actually had to reset the server for, or the dupe in 03 that required a patch of the game client, or even jspbot, but I have done so. There are pleasures to setting up a script to bot (it takes a lot of work to get a character to cast X number of spells, move to certain places to do it, sell the items and not your own gear off your character, it's not like bots had preset paths, you had to program it yourself), and it's just a different sort of game, just like it can be fun to PvE, and fun to PvP.
But to say it 'ruined the fun for other people" is kind of ridiculous. Just kind of.
The existance of bots in the RMAH system is counter-intuitive. If the price goes down too low, its not worth posting the item because of the fact that blizzard can potentially take 3 different cuts of your sale. If too many people bot, too many items are found/sold and the botters in questions will then be forced to compete with the rest.
With this logic in mind, if people mass botted then it would be time to invest a dollar and fifty cents into the auction house for the best possible shield as opposed to lets say, 10. More people would buy things thus giving blizzard more cuts.
Botting will effectively make blizzard richer, with my logic! But it would f*** the system beyond recognition and everyone knows how horrendous that would be. Do you not think blizzard would take ANY measures necessary to not send there brand spankin new RMAH system to the vultures?
lol!
Anyways, an an economics grad I feel inclined to put my degree to use at least once this year, and point out that while it's true that on a whole, it will 'hurt' the sellers market, therefore duping/botting would be bad for sellers to do due to dropping price, it would help a single person, because they can... well... sell more items. However, everyone will have an incentive to dupe/bot, to increase their share, and due to this, the market prices will plummet.
It's a textbook prisoners dilemma - the 'perfect' situation would be for everyone to not dupe/bot. But for a single person, it would be preferable to dupe/bot, because if everyone else does it, prices drop, and therefore he must dupe/bot to stay competitive. If no one does it, he can make huge profits but duping/botting, so therefore he will do it because the reward is too lucrative to pass up.
As always, the bots will be private. I know in D2 the dupe program never got publicly released, and some people made a lot of money for it, and that one group of people kept the dupe for themselves (it was obvious when new people got a dupe program because of price changes and economy shocks). But one day, one dupe, may leak. I believe Blizzard was always aware of certain dupers, at least the programs, but was okay with it being held privately. I'm sure they weren't pleased it wasn't them holding the dupe program because what if they leak it on accident, but I think they were aware of private duping and were, to some extent, okay with it.
In HC, it was actually almost impossible to solo hell Baal without perfect gear, on a perfect character, that was a very specific build. You could have the most epic cold sorc in the world, but you could never kill Baal solo (or without a very, very long time). You also could simply die if you don't have healers and buffers in the party. And, you get much more experience grinding in a full room than a solo room. Combine that with 7 other people helping power through Baal, you could level up very fast in a way you couldn't otherwise.
In HC we had very effficient baaling groups, private ones, as if you tried to public baal, people would PK you (some people did this, they either got PKd, or it was run by TPPKers to pk people or basically shot to everyone they are pk'ers and the bosses of the realm). This required a very specialized group of people - a clan, if you will.
Also, given how mobs worked in D2, and the nature of HC, you really needed a lvl 53 battle orders barb, and a lvl 53 druid giving oak sage. This meant that someone in the group had to control 2 characters, with gear that was more expensive than any PVP build or caster, who's jobs were solely to provide shouts and buffs to the party, so no one died. While it may sound a bit overkill, it was actually necessary if you are killing the hardest boss in the game 40ish times an hour, where certain mobs would randomly die and blow up, dealing 10k damage, which, is as shitty as it sounds - you would die due to a random mob and nothing you could do to really stop it short of not hiding in the corner like a bitch. Which doesn't kill Baal very quickly at all.
You also have clans which support eachother by leveling eachother's lvl 1 chars to lvl 80 in an hour... on hardcore. Trying to lvl to 80 on HC without support of a clan takes about 2 months. Which requires an enchanter sorc, who has, again, extremely expensive and epic gear... all so a lvl 1 can get to lvl 12 in 5 minutes instead of an hour.
Try getting to lvl 30 in public games on hardcore. It's a hell of a lot of fun, but I guarantee you'll die at least 20 times to PKers before that happens. That's why clans exist.
Wow that totalbiscuit video was fucking retarded. That guy....
I guess he isn't aware that people had transactions and 'cheated with cash' D2 all day long. People still do that with Wow. I sold my toon for $480 on WoW on ebay, even after my listing was removed, and another $100 on a dedicated gold website (lvl 60 that had t.05 gear... but it was the day before BC).
And then there's sites like d2jsp, where you use 'forum gold' to trade, which you could also conveniently buy from the forum as well. Which is, gasp, money used to buy items. Although you COULD just use in-game resources to buy items.
The RMAH is just taking the model of D2jsp, the most successful blizzard trading site to ever exist. It's an amazing idea, most people will stick to using in-game resources, a select few will pay cash, but have a neglible effect on the community.
And modding did NOT keep d2 alive 'for ages'. That is so ridiculous, only little kids played on open.
And we obviously see how SC2 benefits from online only. It prevents hacks and bots from ruining the server, and keeps money in the pocket of Blizz, as it should. I had (actually still have) over 2,000 CD keys for D2 (only used it for bots). That translates to a LOT of lost money to blizz.
It's funny how much he hates on bots/hackers/dupes, and then cries about online-only.
Blizzard is not taking 'cuts' from the community. You don't HAVE to use the RMAH, it's only for the kids with rich parents or the adults who could care less about spending $5 on the most epic gear in the game. It's a small fee, that players have to pay just as if they were to use ebay or paypal.
Most retaded video ever. Just like a lot of what he says, why doesn't he just stick with wow.
EPT
