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On September 20 2010 07:32 Southlight wrote:
By the way, people whom were looking into buying Kassadin:
I wouldn't recommend it at all right now
He feasted on the tank-heavy FotM because it was almost impossible to lose 1v1. I bemoaned every rare game that an opponent picked Tristana, because she was a hero that could beat me 1v1 as the game went on.
No more.
Too many people are picking up ranged DPS these days, be it MF, Kog, Kayle, Twitch, Trist, what have you, and they all wreck Kassadin. I think his reign of dominance is coming closer to an end, so be aware that you're walking into a hero that's being "hard-countered" more and more if you choose to go down that path.
Wait, what?
I thought Kassadin was good because he could bypass all the tankish champs and kill the carry.
Just pack exhaust, ult in->silence->exhaust->burst (Lich bane + W helps doing the burst lethal). He's either disabled and at very low hp or dead.
There's no way Kassadin could beat a tank in 1vs1...
So MF, Kog, Kayle, Twitch and Trist being popular is exactly what Kassadin wants.
He's like Akali, but exchanging early game domination for mid-late game domination. His ability to flash out is what makes him much superior to Akali, since he can escape after the burst.
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Uh.. are you telling Uta how to play Kass o.O
Getting hit is just kinda bad news on Kassadin, especially when you haven't built any survivability items yet.
edit ^^^
My understanding of it is that Kass is great at killing exactly one dps hero because the rest of the team can't do anything about it once the dps hero is dead. He's a bit less great when blinking in to gib Kog puts you in MF/Ashe/Trist/Twitch's crosshairs.
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Flashing out doesn't help against a ranged dps that 1) can usually hit you anyways (flash range not big enough) and 2) doesn't really accomplish much because you won't usually kill them in 4 cycles and you'll still die faster, especially if they run something like Veil. It takes a squishy not-really-ranged hero like Nidalee or Ezreal to make Kassadin shine, but the MFs and such just kill you really fast. Good example is the champ spotlight - after a certain point there's nothing you can actually do with Kass vs a ranged DPS.
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On September 20 2010 08:12 Niton wrote:
Uh.. are you telling Uta how to play Kass o.O
Getting hit is just kinda bad news on Kassadin, especially when you haven't built any survivability items yet.
edit ^^^
My understanding of it is that Kass is great at killing exactly one dps hero because the rest of the team can't do anything about it once the dps hero is dead. He's a bit less great when blinking in to gib Kog puts you in MF/Ashe/Trist/Twitch's crosshairs.
Oh, I get it, he means fighting vs a team with multiple ranged carries...
Well, maybe a 2-carry team can be balanced (as long as one of the carries is Kayle), but if they have more than 2 carries, they have an unbalanced team and should be weak on many spots.
Still, an assassin can be very useful. Not as game-changing as when there's just 1 carry, but still.
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On September 20 2010 08:10 shalafi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 07:32 Southlight wrote:
By the way, people whom were looking into buying Kassadin:
I wouldn't recommend it at all right now
He feasted on the tank-heavy FotM because it was almost impossible to lose 1v1. I bemoaned every rare game that an opponent picked Tristana, because she was a hero that could beat me 1v1 as the game went on.
No more.
Too many people are picking up ranged DPS these days, be it MF, Kog, Kayle, Twitch, Trist, what have you, and they all wreck Kassadin. I think his reign of dominance is coming closer to an end, so be aware that you're walking into a hero that's being "hard-countered" more and more if you choose to go down that path. Wait, what? I thought Kassadin was good because he could bypass all the tankish champs and kill the carry. Just pack exhaust, ult in->silence->exhaust->burst (Lich bane + W helps doing the burst lethal). He's either disabled and at very low hp or dead. There's no way Kassadin could beat a tank in 1vs1... So MF, Kog, Kayle, Twitch and Trist being popular is exactly what Kassadin wants.
No, Kassadin was good because no one took any hero that could actually kill him. When you have a team with like 4 tanks and an Ezreal (who's a sad excuse for a ranged DPS) you have no real way of killing Kassadin unless he has a brainfart and blinks into a chain stun. And with a 3-4 second cd on a 3 second duration AoE snare he'd pick tanks apart and simultaneously prevent them from doing their job. Then with Rift he can re-position himself to snare anything and everything, and nothing output enough damage to actually kill him in between CDs, both for Rift as well as his actual damage spells.
True ranged DPS (as in, heroes that have good attack range) carve Kassadin up because you can't get into range without eating a lot of hits, and the hits come too hard for him to win the battle. I always build Kassadin tanky. Don't tell me to build more tanky because aside from Soulstealer I build entirely tanky items. The problem is that when someone's doing 200-300 per hit and hits like twice per second, critting for 400-600, and you can only burst about like 1200 every 7 seconds you're not going to win that. You have to hope you can outrange them so you can kite in and out with your Q poke to whittle them down but high-range champs (esp in conjunction with other shit, like AoE) cut you down fast, too. Hence, while it's nice being able to gib softies, the reality is that when the game goes on and they get even one Veil you're pretty fucked.
For like the last two months the only true ranged DPS you saw was Trist (because only her and Corki were really "viable" and you can count the number of Corki players on one hand) and Trist always gave me fits unless I completely took her out of the equation in laning phase. Get her a little fed by accident, give her any momentum and double-pot Trist kills Kassadin in moments, not to mention with her good attack range Kass can hardly even touch her.
However in the past two weeks MF and Kog and Kayle have become a lot more prevalent, and more and more teams are running support heroes (not just Taric) to make killing them even more time-consuming... and the Kass vs Ranged DPS matchup is not one where you have time on your side.
Edit:
No, Kassadin is NOT good at gibbing one hero, because he doesn't have the burst damage to do so. A good example I point out to people that lots of people (esp. in this thread) might be familiar with is the second game of HawkshotGG vs CLG in the WCG, where Annie was gibbing Kog'Maw over and over again, but as the game went on Annie's scaling ended up such that she couldn't anymore, and became a nonfactor. This is particularly the case when she'd try to gib Kog'Maw, only to see Kog get shielded by Janna, then get healed back up by the ult, and she would simply die on the spot. But hark, Annie has more damage output than Kassadin, by a full third when considering that initial burst, and their cooldowns are mostly the same.
^-- it's why I've always maintained Kassadin is a poking hero. He wins matchups by poking people to death, and when they're at a dangerously low level he just bursts them, or runs them down with imbapulse. He can't do that against ranged DPS heroes that just smash him right back.
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Ah, that makes more sense. My Kass experience is limited to knowing him as "that asshole who hops like 4 walls when we try to kill him", so it's interesting to get insight on how he's played.
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On September 20 2010 08:19 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 08:10 shalafi wrote:On September 20 2010 07:32 Southlight wrote:
By the way, people whom were looking into buying Kassadin:
I wouldn't recommend it at all right now
He feasted on the tank-heavy FotM because it was almost impossible to lose 1v1. I bemoaned every rare game that an opponent picked Tristana, because she was a hero that could beat me 1v1 as the game went on.
No more.
Too many people are picking up ranged DPS these days, be it MF, Kog, Kayle, Twitch, Trist, what have you, and they all wreck Kassadin. I think his reign of dominance is coming closer to an end, so be aware that you're walking into a hero that's being "hard-countered" more and more if you choose to go down that path. Wait, what? I thought Kassadin was good because he could bypass all the tankish champs and kill the carry. Just pack exhaust, ult in->silence->exhaust->burst (Lich bane + W helps doing the burst lethal). He's either disabled and at very low hp or dead. There's no way Kassadin could beat a tank in 1vs1... So MF, Kog, Kayle, Twitch and Trist being popular is exactly what Kassadin wants. No, Kassadin was good because no one took any hero that could actually kill him. When you have a team with like 4 tanks and an Ezreal (who's a sad excuse for a ranged DPS) you have no real way of killing Kassadin unless he has a brainfart and blinks into a chain stun. And with a 3-4 second cd on a 3 second duration AoE snare he'd pick tanks apart and simultaneously prevent them from doing their job. Then with Rift he can re-position himself to snare anything and everything, and nothing output enough damage to actually kill him in between CDs, both for Rift as well as his actual damage spells. True ranged DPS (as in, heroes that have good attack range) carve Kassadin up because you can't get into range without eating a lot of hits, and the hits come too hard for him to win the battle. I always build Kassadin tanky. Don't tell me to build more tanky because aside from Soulstealer I build entirely tanky items. The problem is that when someone's doing 200-300 per hit and hits like twice per second, critting for 400-600, and you can only burst about like 1200 every 7 seconds you're not going to win that. You have to hope you can outrange them so you can kite in and out with your Q poke to whittle them down but high-range champs (esp in conjunction with other shit, like AoE) cut you down fast, too. Hence, while it's nice being able to gib softies, the reality is that when the game goes on and they get even one Veil you're pretty fucked. For like the last two months the only true ranged DPS you saw was Trist (because only her and Corki were really "viable" and you can count the number of Corki players on one hand) and Trist always gave me fits unless I completely took her out of the equation in laning phase. Get her a little fed by accident, give her any momentum and double-pot Trist kills Kassadin in moments, not to mention with her good attack range Kass can hardly even touch her. However in the past two weeks MF and Kog and Kayle have become a lot more prevalent, and more and more teams are running support heroes (not just Taric) to make killing them even more time-consuming... and the Kass vs Ranged DPS matchup is not one where you have time on your side.
We can theorycraft and discuss this all day long, but if a ranged champion is farmed enough, most champions are "hard countered". And ultimately, because this is not a 1v1 or Kassadin vs Tristana+support game, anything can happen.
Lol @ the lane vs trist part.
Edit:
No, Kassadin is NOT good at gibbing one hero, because he doesn't have the burst damage to do so. A good example I point out to people that lots of people (esp. in this thread) might be familiar with is the second game of HawkshotGG vs CLG in the WCG, where Annie was gibbing Kog'Maw over and over again, but as the game went on Annie's scaling ended up such that she couldn't anymore, and became a nonfactor. This is particularly the case when she'd try to gib Kog'Maw, only to see Kog get shielded by Janna, then get healed back up by the ult, and she would simply die on the spot. But hark, Annie has more damage output than Kassadin, by a full third when considering that initial burst, and their cooldowns are mostly the same.
^-- it's why I've always maintained Kassadin is a poking hero. He wins matchups by poking people to death, and when they're at a dangerously low level he just bursts them, or runs them down with imbapulse. He can't do that against ranged DPS heroes that just smash him right back
Annie and Epikgaming/Hawkshotgg was raping kog maw in WCG until a misfortunate accident. It shows that a caster can shut down a carry until mid to later mid game.
Obviously, DPS scales better than burst AP. The point of AP is to be strong earlier-later mid while DPS is supposed to be stronger late.
And also, Epikgaming had that second game, but due to unfortunate circumstances, they lost. So yes, AP can shut down dps before they get too strong, and they get raped late game. That's not a reason not to play AP champions though.
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On September 20 2010 08:25 Niton wrote:
Ah, that makes more sense. My Kass experience is limited to knowing him as "that asshole who hops like 4 walls when we try to kill him", so it's interesting to get insight on how he's played.
If he's too far ahead that's what'll happen, because if he's ahead of your ranged DPS and he can actually gib him, there's nothing you can do. But I've found that less and less likely to happen, because good players find ways to circumvent being dominated by Kassadin, and so it's a lot harder to actually "kick in." It's why I've been forced to build tankier and tankier to try to soak up hits from, say, MF of late, and that makes my damage output less effective (obviously) and by relation makes it significantly harder to actually win that 1v1 fight that you want to be able to jump in and win. So then you end up being relegated to this off-tank snarebot, which is useful but there're other heroes that can fulfill a similar role. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a whole hell of a lot harder to play Kassadin now than even two weeks ago, thus my post cautioning people that it's an uphill battle with him again.
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need 1400 more IP for pantheon, and fuck i used all my IP boosts i obtained from Alienware
this sucks
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pantheon sucks....
buy gangplank bro.
hes so good
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Annie was gibbing Kog'Maw because she has a stun and more crucially a third nuke. That is not a feat that can be accomplished by Kassadin.
You can debate whether the team would have won or lost or whatever; they were "winning" for a while but it had nothing to do with the specific nuker vs carry debate and more to do with the rest of the game flow. Although it was obvious (personally) by their one error-led death (DD at baron) that they were not really ahead, they simply had a strong push. ie. Salce gibbed HSGG at bottom (Phreak went ballistic at the heroic kamikaze) second tower and it didn't stop Epik from losing the fight anyways.
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On September 20 2010 08:38 Pikachusc2 wrote:
pantheon sucks....
buy gangplank bro.
hes so good
i already have gangplank
he's boring
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On September 20 2010 08:43 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 08:38 Pikachusc2 wrote:
pantheon sucks....
buy gangplank bro.
hes so good i already have gangplank he's boring
He's boring if you try to play to win (tankplank etc.) but he's funny as hell if you're just playing to have fun and troll people (mass crit). :D
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whaaaTTTTTTTTTT
GANGPLANK SO FUN
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my friend we play with....
well we have three of us so we que as 3's then we get paired up with two randoms
and we always lose when we have an Olaf on the team.
but to stop the anger we call him
"Brolof"
adds texture.
NOOOO BROLOF
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Don't you mean brolaf, lol.
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Misfortune is an epic carry hero. It's impossible to have a great early game and it's so easy to get a kill or two at level 6 with ult if either of the lanes are pushing forward.
It probably has more to do with the fact that people are retarded and focus tanks instead of smashing the carry though ^_^ Oh well, I'll take my free wins while I can :0
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On September 20 2010 08:49 Pikachusc2 wrote:
my friend we play with....
well we have three of us so we que as 3's then we get paired up with two randoms
and we always lose when we have an Olaf on the team.
but to stop the anger we call him
"Brolof"
adds texture.
NOOOO BROLOF
I love olaf. Hes amazing... Don't get why you keep losing when hes on your team. Maybe hes not jungling?
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How do you folks do your masteries on Kog'Maw?
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On September 20 2010 08:44 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 08:43 arb wrote:On September 20 2010 08:38 Pikachusc2 wrote:
pantheon sucks....
buy gangplank bro.
hes so good i already have gangplank he's boring He's boring if you try to play to win (tankplank etc.) but he's funny as hell if you're just playing to have fun and troll people (mass crit). :D
i usually play critplank, never even tried tankplank
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EPT
