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On September 13 2010 16:53 Scipaeus121212 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 12:25 Darkchylde wrote:On September 13 2010 07:23 Scipaeus121212 wrote:
And me failing at math again, brutalizer isn't as cost efficient as I thought >_> I'm pretty sure brutalizer is one of the most cost efficient items in the game. Well, it is "cost efficient" as in giving a lot of damage for its cost, but when building infinity edge you want critical strike, not damage. The armor penetration gives 15%/7,5%/5% damage bonus against 15/100/200 armor respectively, which is very nice, but no one is hanging around at 15 armor and it is worse than infinity edge boosed critical chance. In the end, another agility cloak would simply be much better, unless you REALLY want cooldown reduction. As for the Youmuu's ghost blade, it is ok-ish DPS item, it is definately worth it if you want the active. The reason why I don't like buying damage at all beyond infinity edge is this: Critical strike chance is on average +1% to your damage. With masteries and IE, it is +1,6% bonus to your damage. Let's pretend you have 180 damage, which is reasonable with infinity edge. Each point in critical strike is worth 2,88 damage. One damage costs 39 gold, one point in critical chance costs 48.88. So it isn't efficient to buy damage beyond infinity edge until you have ~85% critical strike chance >_>. (edit; failed at math again. Everything is correct now ^^) TL;DR After infinity edge, buy agility cloaks. You can buy Atma's at around 50% critical chance if you want armor. If you have more/less HP than 2000 buy it sooner/later. Do not build damage until 100% critical chance. Get last whisper in somewhere in there.
going crit is viable but building crit is viable, but you have a problem if you stack agi cloaks, you run out of spaces in inventory. Boots+Infinity edge= 2 slots for 20% crit, each agi cloak is 18% so you end up with 92% crit if you stack only agility cloaks, after turning 1 into atmas, you are stuck with 3 cloaks that you dont have anything to do with. If you plan on playing a crit stacking character, its better to get a couple of avarice blades early, then finish infinity edge, turn one into ghostblade, sell other when you get phantom dancers up, if you get 2 phantom dancers you can sell your boots and get a situational item, also pop green elixers to get crit. The agility cloak is just not a versatile enough item.
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Post 2* above me, I'm not sure about the math because I didn't do it but that just seems intuitively wrong. Armor penetration is WAY better than crit chance, even with an infinity edge. Brutalizer is probably one of the single most cost-effective items in the game and it's pretty much mandatory on all physical carries. The CDR is nice, too.
Honestly though my thoughts are that you want extra armor penetration after a big damage item. I didn't do any of the math but I'd rather have a black cleaver than a phantom dancer after IE.
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On September 13 2010 17:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Post 2* above me, I'm not sure about the math because I didn't do it but that just seems intuitively wrong. Armor penetration is WAY better than crit chance, even with an infinity edge. Brutalizer is probably one of the single most cost-effective items in the game and it's pretty much mandatory on all physical carries. The CDR is nice, too.
Honestly though my thoughts are that you want extra armor penetration after a big damage item. I didn't do any of the math but I'd rather have a black cleaver than a phantom dancer after IE.
if you want armor pen, go with brutalizer, more arm pen on first hit and less than half as cheep, 2 brutalizers is 2674 gold for 50 attack power and 20% cdr, with 30 armor pen, compared to 3065 for 75 attack power and 12 arm pen per hit, which means it takes you 3 hits before you get as much armor pen as the 2 brutalizers. In terms of dps upgrades from the BF sword, order of importants is IE>Bloodthirster>Black cleaver, if you are gonna save up for a BF sword, might as well get the bloodthirster after the IE. but I find IE+Ghostblade+Brutalizer+boots to be a great core for physical dps, usually game ends by then, but if its super late game, Bloodthirster+GA, then sell the GA for another bloodthirster after you use up the revive. Also, double pot green+red, blue if you are not at full cdr
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i feel like crits do better against teams who dont get any armor, while apen will actually let you deal dmg to some1 who has armor. I dunno for sure, but i was playing an ashe who was basically going crit (ie, pdancer, and 2 avarice blades) and i had a shitton of hp from mallet, banshees and giants belt and she was poking away at me doing pretty decent dmg, all of the sudden, i buy a chain vest and she did nothing at all
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No wait, make that 5 losses now. The eve player sucks it up playing karthus mid. Has to leave and give it to ap ez. Why do I have to lose the normal amount of rating when I get queued with someone in the 1300's.
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Brutalizer unique passive doesn't stack.
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Not only does it not stack, it doesn't stack with ghostblade. Armor pen and magic pen are hard to come by (armor pen more so). Probably because of how good the stats are.
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On September 13 2010 18:43 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Not only does it not stack, it doesn't stack with ghostblade. Armor pen and magic pen are hard to come by (armor pen more so). Probably because of how good the stats are.
are you sure? i kno a lot of ppl who swear gb and bruta stack...
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On September 13 2010 18:08 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
No wait, make that 5 losses now. The eve player sucks it up playing karthus mid. Has to leave and give it to ap ez. Why do I have to lose the normal amount of rating when I get queued with someone in the 1300's.
i gave you a win, 5-1, :D?
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On September 13 2010 17:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Post 2* above me, I'm not sure about the math because I didn't do it but that just seems intuitively wrong. Armor penetration is WAY better than crit chance, even with an infinity edge. Brutalizer is probably one of the single most cost-effective items in the game and it's pretty much mandatory on all physical carries. The CDR is nice, too.
Honestly though my thoughts are that you want extra armor penetration after a big damage item. I didn't do any of the math but I'd rather have a black cleaver than a phantom dancer after IE.
It is true that armor penetration is very good, however last whisper is also solid choice. Black cleaver does more DPS against enemies with ~ 130 armor and less, IF black cleaver has full stacks. Since it depends on constantly hitting enemies, I'd say it is most of the time better on ranged carries and worse than last whisper on melee. But you are definately right that armor penetration is imortant, I would even say going black cleaver/last whisper after IE (maybe before it?) is a good idea.
I disagree on the brutalizer. It IS a good item after you get about 45% crit chance, I'd just say that there are better items out there (Atma's comes to mind, as does manamune, bloodthirster, while giving damage, giving huge amounts of it) but of course build it if you want youmuu's for the active.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On September 13 2010 18:43 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Not only does it not stack, it doesn't stack with ghostblade. Armor pen and magic pen are hard to come by (armor pen more so). Probably because of how good the stats are.
If you believe in the numbers in the character chart (press 'C'), they DO stack. Both CDR and APen.
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On September 13 2010 18:44 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 18:43 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Not only does it not stack, it doesn't stack with ghostblade. Armor pen and magic pen are hard to come by (armor pen more so). Probably because of how good the stats are. are you sure? i kno a lot of ppl who swear gb and bruta stack...
I tested this out before the latest patch. Brutalizer and Ghostblade do indeed stack, and if you get two ghostblades then CDR will stack like you have just a Brutalizer and a Ghostblade.
They probably didn't change this in the last patch, and if they did they didn't announce it.
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On September 13 2010 18:48 Scipaeus121212 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 17:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Post 2* above me, I'm not sure about the math because I didn't do it but that just seems intuitively wrong. Armor penetration is WAY better than crit chance, even with an infinity edge. Brutalizer is probably one of the single most cost-effective items in the game and it's pretty much mandatory on all physical carries. The CDR is nice, too.
Honestly though my thoughts are that you want extra armor penetration after a big damage item. I didn't do any of the math but I'd rather have a black cleaver than a phantom dancer after IE. It is true that armor penetration is very good, however last whisper is also solid choice. Black cleaver does more DPS against enemies with ~ 130 armor and less, IF black cleaver has full stacks. Since it depends on constantly hitting enemies, I'd say it is most of the time better on ranged carries and worse than last whisper on melee. But you are definately right that armor penetration is imortant, I would even say going black cleaver/last whisper after IE (maybe before it?) is a good idea. I disagree on the brutalizer. It IS a good item after you get about 45% crit chance, I'd just say that there are better items out there (Atma's comes to mind, as does manamune, bloodthirster, while giving damage, giving huge amounts of it) but of course build it if you want youmuu's for the active.
brutalizer is an extremely strong early rush item for any physical dmg hero. On nearly all of the physical heroes i play, bruta comes before the first bf item, unless i can afford bf + an elixer + boots on my first b.
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On September 13 2010 18:44 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 18:43 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Not only does it not stack, it doesn't stack with ghostblade. Armor pen and magic pen are hard to come by (armor pen more so). Probably because of how good the stats are. are you sure? i kno a lot of ppl who swear gb and bruta stack...
That's what I was told, but it's possible I am wrong. But it shouldn't stack the same way sheen doesn't stack with lichbane/trinity, the build to item counts as a same unique.
On September 13 2010 18:44 BraveGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 18:08 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
No wait, make that 5 losses now. The eve player sucks it up playing karthus mid. Has to leave and give it to ap ez. Why do I have to lose the normal amount of rating when I get queued with someone in the 1300's. i gave you a win, 5-1, :D?
I wouldn't say you gave me a win. I was damn impressed with how our team played. Not a single death to blitz/annie lane, or kass/garen lane, and zilean owned up some nidalee, while I got free reign over the jungle, getting several dragons and all of your blue. If the game would have gone for longer without any one sided deaths, there's no way we would have been able to kill anyone of you.
But yes now I get my win of the day, and I'm at 1504. I have to work back up to 1550 and then hopefully higher.
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First off, if you're going for pure DPS via AD/ASpd/crit, you're limiting yourself to characters like Tristana and Tryndamere, maybe Twitch and Kog Maw. Ashe/Ezreal/MF are inferior to those if all you are focusing on is autoattacks. Ashe gets most of her damage from Volley, which can do up to 5 times the damage of an autoattack, but it doesn't crit. Ezreal and MF rely more on their Qs, which don't crit either. Tristana/Trynd can just autoattack repeatedly thanks to their range/ult. You're simply better off playing Tristana than Ashe as pure autoattack DPS.
Anyways, IE (4080 gold) vs Ghostblade/Brutalizer (4024 gold) on a lvl 14 Tristana. I will assume that the target you want to hit is not a tank, and has 40 Armor after APen from masteries/runes.
I'll ignore the GB active, and also all ASpd since it applies to everything in the same way. CDR is also ignored.
With IE, you have 167 AD, 20% crit for 250% damage.
After armor, a normal hit deals 119 damage.
You deal 0.8 * 119 + 0.2 * 2.5 * 119 = 154.7 damage on average.
With GB/B, you have 142 AD, 35 APen, 15% crit for 200% damage.
After armor, a normal hit deals 135 damage.
You deal 0.85 * 135 + 0.15 * 2 * 135 = 155.25 damage on average.
Herpdederp, GB/B > IE, even without the active and CDR. I actually expected IE slighlty ahead. And no I didn't pick the values in a way that puts GB/B ahead. Level 14 sounds somewhat reasonable for 4k + Boots, though you can probably get it earlier. All I ever remember is that I get my Catalyst on level 16, but I never check when I get my GB/B. You can have up to 35 APen from runes/masteries, and up to 75 armor on a squishy sounds ok at level 14. Tristana has 57 without items at 14. You don't want to focus a tank, do you?
That doesn't mean that GB/B is good on Tristana, I would probably build her around IE/Crit anyways, though I don't know when the best timing is.
For stacking Crit, you definitely should not get more than 2 Cloaks of Agility - 1 for Atmas, 1 for Phantom Dancer. Use Avarice/Elixier instead.
On September 13 2010 13:46 azndsh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 13:40 gtrsrs wrote:
i just did a bunch of mathcrafting for a friend who was trying to convince me that infinity edge is the "best damage item in the game"
when the numbers boiled down, infinity edge looks pretty bad on paper. a lot worse than i was expecting it.
i still think 1 infinity edge can be a good thing especially to boost those critical strikes but wow, if i ever see someone with 2 infinity edges in game again (as opposed to the much more rounded *and* cost efficient atma's impaler) i think i'm gonna rage. inf edge is definitely the best single damage item on paper and in game...
I think this battle was decided in favor of Bloodrazors.
On September 13 2010 13:52 Misder wrote:
Ive been thinking infinity edge + atma's impalers for all range carries. Atma's gives more crit, armor, and damage>bf sword if you have more than 2500 hp, which everyone should have if im not mistaking. Then infinity edge gives more damage, crit, and the unique. Add a green pot, and youre crits hit hard. I think someone before me suggested this.
Tristana has 1891 HP at level 18. Ashe has 1781. Unless you're getting a huge chunk of HP via Mallet, you're probably not breaking through the 2500 mark in an average game.
I don't mean to advise against Atmas. If the armor and crit is not wasted, it is a great item in many situations. Just saying that a squishy often stays between 2000-2500 HP.
EDIT:
GB/B most definitely do stack. I have been doing this in every single game where I played Ashe for quite some time now. I haven't tried the GB/B -> GB/GB thing where the Brutalizer passive is supposed to stay despite building it into GB.
If they don't stack, I am just godly because I can afford to waste 1337 gold and still kill stuff. I can live with that too.
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I think Atma's is a good choice a buy in the lategame against any team with 1.5 or more physical characters. Even at only ~2100 HP (Red Elixir), you're still going to get 42 AD, 18% Crit and 45 armor. That's really not too bad for 800g less than a Bloodthirster (100 AD, 25% LS if you can re-stack it between engaging). If you have a Banshee's, it even goes up to 49 AD!
It's niche, but you trade some AD and some LS for Crit and Armor, and given that LS isn't all that useful if you get bursted down, I could see it getting built any time you're at risk of dying to physical damage in the lategame.
Edit: Total cost of Banshee's + Atma's is 5120, Bloodthirster + BFSword is 5050. The comparison is 150 AD, 25% LS (optimal) vs 450 Health, 400 Mana, 45 Armor, 47 MRes, 18% Crit, 49 AD. Unless you're the master of not dying, endgame gold seems better spent on the second pile.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
If you use only 5K gold spinesheath, infinity edge is truely not very powerful. What it does though is make critical chance RIDICULOUSLY efficient to buy. But you indeed do need at least 8K gold invested (or about 7K with green elixir) into pure offense to make infinity edge better than GB/B, which is much longer than I expected.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Seriously, it's as obvious as day that IE is an investment in crit and to make it efficient, you need to raise up your crit chance somehow. Crit generally works on characters who's abilities benefit from crit somehow. GP, trynd come into mind (IE is amazing on both), maybe Poppy because apparently her Q can crit in some weird way. IE is not the best item for heroes whose abilities scale with some other stat, take Ezreal or Kog. Ezreal is built around long-range poking with Q, he gets most from APen, Kog gets most from AS because his %-based damage is absolutely irrelevant of his AD and APen and building MPen seems strange.
That is, IE on itself is not that efficient, but it's amazing if you're planning to build around crit chance with your other items.
Redo the comparison of GB/B and IE and add in a green pot into both equations, I'm pretty sure IE will come out even if not ahead.
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chat died when utah logged in? trololol
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On September 13 2010 19:45 BluzMan wrote:
Seriously, it's as obvious as day that IE is an investment in crit and to make it efficient, you need to raise up your crit chance somehow. Crit generally works on characters who's abilities benefit from crit somehow. GP, trynd come into mind (IE is amazing on both), maybe Poppy because apparently her Q can crit in some weird way. IE is not the best item for heroes whose abilities scale with some other stat, take Ezreal or Kog. Ezreal is built around long-range poking with Q, he gets most from APen, Kog gets most from AS because his %-based damage is absolutely irrelevant of his AD and APen and building MPen seems strange.
That is, IE on itself is not that efficient, but it's amazing if you're planning to build around crit chance with your other items.
Redo the comparison of GB/B and IE and add in a green pot into both equations, I'm pretty sure IE will come out even if not ahead.
It's pretty simple: 15% more crit on both will yield more damage for IE than GB/B, and since the difference is pretty small, IE will pull ahead. Which is perfectly fine, GB/B still has 25% CDR and the GB active.
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EPT
