EPTLeague of Legends [New forum, check OP!] - Page 764
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
It is clear that following a certain "playstyle" isn't optimal in all cases. However it is also hard if not impossibly to deny the existence of several "best" actions. Take the example of chess: There are situations where you can immediately win the game with either of several moves. None of those moves is superior to another. There might be moves that also lead to certain victory, but require several moves. You might argue that those are worse, but unless your time is running out they are not. Since LoL is real time, there will be "best" actions - several of those - and actions that are ever so slightly worse. It's a continuos slope of "quality of actions". Since your thinking time is extremely limited you can only try to choose a good action, you can never verify that it is the best before you have to carry it out. A playstyle is a collection of actions for various common situations. A good playstyle will regularly hit good actions. But of course there will be situations that a playstyle doesn't cover properly, and if you try to apply an action that was meant for another situation it can turn out bad. Long story short: The existance of a single best action is an idealistic illusion. Don't turn off your brain while playing. | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3890 Posts
in other news.. seeing people ban kogmaw makes me smile | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
our yi was stomping all over their whole team (ended up like 13-4-19) and ganked their singed and said something snarky singed's response: just wait til i buy my hotspur, phaggot it is now my favorite saying ever | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On August 30 2010 04:08 myopia wrote: Hey Phrost would you consider suggesting to Riot that they offer smaller packages of runepages for RP. 7 pages is absurd. They do, theres 1 or 7.... 7 is the max you can have anyway and its a pretty heavy discount over 1's | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
On August 30 2010 05:02 gtrsrs wrote: just had the best quote ever to come out of a LoL game our yi was stomping all over their whole team (ended up like 13-4-19) and ganked their singed and said something snarky singed's response: just wait til i buy my hotspur, phaggot it is now my favorite saying ever I think my favorite manner/character combo was rjcombo (a rioteer that uses the emumu avatar) playing emumu and just being so emo about the whole game. Funny thing was he was like "this is why my elo is sliding" and he had like boots a blasting wand and amplifying tome =/ I ended up carrying the game with vladimir because his ult is op with amumu and/or galio | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On August 30 2010 04:35 spinesheath wrote: If you would just drop that stupid idea that something like a single best course of action exists, then you would probably not earn this much hate. Good to know disagreement = hate It is clear that following a certain "playstyle" isn't optimal in all cases. However it is also hard if not impossibly to deny the existence of several "best" actions. Take the example of chess: There are situations where you can immediately win the game with either of several moves. None of those moves is superior to another. There might be moves that also lead to certain victory, but require several moves. You might argue that those are worse, but unless your time is running out they are not. Well, at this point competition between good moves is a sham because you're just going through the motions. The game is already over. Autopilot away. Since your thinking time is extremely limited you can only try to choose a good action, you can never verify that it is the best before you have to carry it out. That's true. As I noted earlier (although I don't think I mentioned it in my recap post), it's not always worth it to try and figure out the best play, only whether there's a better one. You don't have the raw processing power to examine all of them at once. Seriously, I'm not trying to force something abstract onto real game situations. A of the argument seems to have that underlying assumption, that I'm trying to craft some Theory of Play. "Is this play worse than another one I could make" is not a thesis statement, it's a pretty damn good rule of thumb. A playstyle is a collection of actions for various common situations. A good playstyle will regularly hit good actions. But of course there will be situations that a playstyle doesn't cover properly, and if you try to apply an action that was meant for another situation it can turn out bad. Well, there we go. Complete agreement. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
And now he's gettin' some buffs. No more flashing/cleansing out of my ult/angry-puddle combo! Bwahahahaha | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On August 30 2010 05:32 UniversalSnip wrote: Well, at this point competition between good moves is a sham because you're just going through the motions. The game is already over. Autopilot away. Riiiight.... This is a simplified example where it is actually easy to determine a best action. If you ever can determine a best action then by all means all further actions should be clear as well, or else my best action brought me into a state of uncertainty. And I am pretty sure that there will usually be plenty of actions that lead to uncertainty. Anyways, I showed you that there is not always a single best action. That's it, nothing to argue about. It's also not a stretch to assume that equialent situations can appear after 5 minutes of LoL, where 2 different sets of actions would lead to an equally good (and "optimal") outcome at 6 minutes in. | ||
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APurpleCow
United States1372 Posts
>>somebody calls solo mid, so I say I'll udyr >>junglesticks is picked before I can pick udyr >>junglesticks dies to minions at level 2, ragequits MATCHMAKING SO GOOD, GLAD 1400 ELO IS STILL ELO HELL | ||
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APurpleCow
United States1372 Posts
On August 30 2010 06:03 spinesheath wrote: Riiiight.... This is a simplified example where it is actually easy to determine a best action. If you ever can determine a best action then by all means all further actions should be clear as well, or else my best action brought me into a state of uncertainty. And I am pretty sure that there will usually be plenty of actions that lead to uncertainty. Anyways, I showed you that there is not always a single best action. That's it, nothing to argue about. It's also not a stretch to assume that equialent situations can appear after 5 minutes of LoL, where 2 different sets of actions would lead to an equally good (and "optimal") outcome at 6 minutes in. Uh... There always is a single best action. There's always an action, which, when taken, gives you the highest probability of winning the game. | ||
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FlameSworD
United States414 Posts
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myopia
United States2928 Posts
On August 30 2010 05:15 Phrost wrote: They do, theres 1 or 7.... 7 is the max you can have anyway and its a pretty heavy discount over 1's but I want 1 for some RP, it's 6300 IP only :| oh wait - am I dumb or has the single RP option always been there. Fast work Phrost. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On August 30 2010 06:10 APurpleCow wrote: Uh... There always is a single best action. There's always an action, which, when taken, gives you the highest probability of winning the game. No. There may be many actions that give you the same highest probability of winning the game. As proven with my chess example. Or if you want a LoL example: I'm at a point where it is clear that I have to wait in a safe area and do nothing for 10 seconds, determined as the BEST action by some miracle. Then I say that walking 5 pixels to the left and back again during those 10 seconds will yield the same chance of winning the game. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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BlueBird.
United States3890 Posts
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APurpleCow
United States1372 Posts
On August 30 2010 06:22 spinesheath wrote: No. There may be many actions that give you the same highest probability of winning the game. As proven with my chess example. Or if you want a LoL example: I'm at a point where it is clear that I have to wait in a safe area and do nothing for 10 seconds, determined as the BEST action by some miracle. Then I say that walking 5 pixels to the left and back again during those 10 seconds will yield the same chance of winning the game. If the actions all give the same probability of winning the game, then it doesn't matter which one you pick. Could diceroll and it'd be fine. So yea, that's fine, those are both the "best decisions". The problem is a lot of the time the "best action" is "hit a skillshot" or "successfully gank" which comes down to playstyle really. No, the best actions would be "use skillshot here at this time" and "gank here at this time like this". | ||
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